Scruff
Grandfathered In 
Posts: 606 
|
Post by Scruff on Mar 31, 2019 20:38:45 GMT -5
Did she love, though? People go through actions to fit in with what they think is the human thing to do. Which I will say that I don't even know what a soul really is.
|
|
oppy all along
TI Forumite
Who's been messing up everything? It was oppy all along
Posts: 2,767
|
Post by oppy all along on Mar 31, 2019 20:42:57 GMT -5
Did she love, though? People go through actions to fit in with what they think is the human thing to do. Which I will say that I don't even know what a soul really is. |
|
|
|
Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Mar 31, 2019 23:16:03 GMT -5
Did she love, though? People go through actions to fit in with what they think is the human thing to do. Which I will say that I don't even know what a soul really is. I mean, she was the only one who seemed remotely upset when Son-Doppelganger was compelled to walk into a fire and die. And then she went to save her son when she was kidnapped by Old-Timey Original Adelaide, when she didn't have to do this, and when neither her husband nor daughter would have known where to find him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 7:40:44 GMT -5
Do you need a soul to love?
|
|
|
|
Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Apr 1, 2019 10:21:35 GMT -5
Do you need a soul to love? This is one of those things that never quite works for me as a plot point, just saying "they have no soul". Well, how do you know that? Is a soul measurable by some sort of equipment in this universe? How do you know This Group has souls and That Group doesn't? How do you know what a soul "does", and how do you even know if you have a soul right now? You don't. "Souls" are a construct of religion or spirituality, not something currently quantifiable, in this, the year of our Lord Steve Rogers twenty-nineteen. (do atheists believe in souls?)
I mean, say what you will about Supernatural, but when Sam comes back from hell with no soul, there is a huge change in his behaviour. He just gives no fucks and has no ability to empathize and is pretty much a sociopath (so much more interesting). But they also have angels and demons and shit, and the angels can literally touch a soul (by shoving their hand through someone's chest), so you know it's an actual thing that exists in-verse.
P.S. I don't disbelieve in souls, I just have a hard time with it as a plot point that's supposed to immediately strike dread and fear into my heart when someone is revealed to not have one.
|
|
|
|
Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Apr 1, 2019 10:41:32 GMT -5
I did enjoy it, although yeah, not as much as Get Out. I felt the pacing was off; it really could have been tightened up in several places, and I am not a fan of the exposition dumps Red kept giving, although Lupita was clearly having a blast.
I believe Peele has flat-out said it's about "the have and the have-nots", however anyone wants to interpret that, but I think I did lose some tension for because I was distracted looking for it to be "about race", and wasn't seeing anything as obvious as Get Out, so I was sure I was missing something. I know Peele says he wants it to be "just a horror movie" , but it's a high concept horror movie with a majority black cast, and a black director/writer, and IMO we are not quite culturally in a place that will discount those things and look at it as a plain ol horror movie without digging for racial allegory.
He is also a smart enough dude to know that. But if this is his way of trying to help get the culture to a place where it WILL discount those things, more power to him. I'm not saying "why does everything have to be about race", I'm saying "it would be great if having a high-concept horror movie with a majority black cast, and a black director/writer wasn't an utterly rare thing".
|
|
Scruff
Grandfathered In
Posts: 606
|
Post by Scruff on Apr 1, 2019 10:49:37 GMT -5
The reason I felt guilty about looking for a higher meaner from this movie was I walked out feeling like it was a direct follow up to Get Out. Remember how awkward the main character felt when he was asked about race relations at the party?
This movie made me feel like I just asked a black person about race relations at a party.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 10:59:03 GMT -5
(do atheists believe in souls?) I don't, and to my knowledge most other atheists wouldn't either. The idea of souls was really thrown on its ear when my grandmother got dementia/Alzheimer's. If you get dementia, have a stroke, or have a traumatic brain injury, your personality can change completely. My grandmother, who was extremely religious for most of my life, could no longer remember who most of the family were, and was trying to sleep with several other men at the senior center, and my Baptist uncle and other family members freaked out so much about this, and the possibility of her "sinning", that they told the family doctor to SEDATE her to keep this from happening. This is INSANE. (My family's actions to subdue my grandmother, to be clear.) If your soul is separate from your physical existence, then things like this wouldn't happen. And if they DID, any God who would punish someone for their actions after an illness changes their fundamental thought processes is a piece of garbage. |
|
|
|
Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Apr 1, 2019 13:13:38 GMT -5
(do atheists believe in souls?) I don't, and to my knowledge most other atheists wouldn't either. The idea of souls was really thrown on its ear when my grandmother got dementia/Alzheimer's. If you get dementia, have a stroke, or have a traumatic brain injury, your personality can change completely. My grandmother, who was extremely religious for most of my life, could no longer remember who most of the family were, and was trying to sleep with several other men at the senior center, and my Baptist uncle and other family members freaked out so much about this, and the possibility of her "sinning", that they told the family doctor to SEDATE her to keep this from happening. This is INSANE. (My family's actions to subdue my grandmother, to be clear.) If your soul is separate from your physical existence, then things like this wouldn't happen. And if they DID, any God who would punish someone for their actions after an illness changes their fundamental thought processes is a piece of garbage. Lemme just say that I'm agnostic with hard leanings toward paganism, and I'm definitely not trying to convince you of anything. But since we literally know nothing about souls or how they might work if they exist at all - and this is not to discount anything about your grandmother's experience or your personal beliefs - we can't say what would or wouldn't happen with a soul when there's a brain affecting incident. Maybe dementia or stroke damages whatever causes a soul to - be attached (metaphysically), for want of a better phrasing. Maybe souls aren't separate from your physical existence until they are. There's just no way of knowing; there's only what organized religion, spirituality, and old white philosophers postulate.
So I guess that's kind of agnostic about souls: I don't know and neither does anyone else. Also this is probably a good time to mention that I used to have a friend who was deeply into philosophy in a Kevin-Kline-Fish-Called-Wanda way, and it pissed her off so very badly when I would say basically "I don't know and neither do you". Not to be a dick*, but because I don't know, neither does anyone else, so it's hard for me to have an actual discussion about it that's not me debating just to pass the time. Because mostly I'm hard put to convince that it matters.
*ok partially to be a dick. Because she was in-fucking-sufferable
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 13:35:46 GMT -5
I don't, and to my knowledge most other atheists wouldn't either. The idea of souls was really thrown on its ear when my grandmother got dementia/Alzheimer's. If you get dementia, have a stroke, or have a traumatic brain injury, your personality can change completely. My grandmother, who was extremely religious for most of my life, could no longer remember who most of the family were, and was trying to sleep with several other men at the senior center, and my Baptist uncle and other family members freaked out so much about this, and the possibility of her "sinning", that they told the family doctor to SEDATE her to keep this from happening. This is INSANE. (My family's actions to subdue my grandmother, to be clear.) If your soul is separate from your physical existence, then things like this wouldn't happen. And if they DID, any God who would punish someone for their actions after an illness changes their fundamental thought processes is a piece of garbage. Lemme just say that I'm agnostic with hard leanings toward paganism, and I'm definitely not trying to convince you of anything. But since we literally know nothing about souls or how they might work if they exist at all - and this is not to discount anything about your grandmother's experience or your personal beliefs - we can't say what would or wouldn't happen with a soul when there's a brain affecting incident. Maybe dementia or stroke damages whatever causes a soul to - be attached (metaphysically), for want of a better phrasing. Maybe souls aren't separate from your physical existence until they are. There's just no way of knowing; there's only what organized religion, spirituality, and old white philosophers postulate.
So I guess that's kind of agnostic about souls: I don't know and neither does anyone else. Also this is probably a good time to mention that I used to have a friend who was deeply into philosophy in a Kevin-Kline-Fish-Called-Wanda way, and it pissed her off so very badly when I would say basically "I don't know and neither do you". Not to be a dick*, but because I don't know, neither does anyone else, so it's hard for me to have an actual discussion about it that's not me debating just to pass the time. Because mostly I'm hard put to convince that it matters.
*ok partially to be a dick. Because she was in-fucking-sufferable
Heh, it's always fun to be a dick, especially if doing so subtly, to someone else being a dick. I should clarify that my complaints about souls and related to my grandmother, would by necessity include the belief that souls contain all of our thoughts, memories and personalities. Because then they shouldn't change from physical maladies. And yes, I admit that I don't know, and neither do you. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything either, just saying from my POV the concept doesn't make a lot of sense. |
|
patbat
TI Forumite
OK です か
Posts: 2,396
|
Post by patbat on Apr 1, 2019 13:37:11 GMT -5
What even IS a soul, lol
|
|
|
|
Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Apr 1, 2019 14:19:33 GMT -5
Lemme just say that I'm agnostic with hard leanings toward paganism, and I'm definitely not trying to convince you of anything. But since we literally know nothing about souls or how they might work if they exist at all - and this is not to discount anything about your grandmother's experience or your personal beliefs - we can't say what would or wouldn't happen with a soul when there's a brain affecting incident. Maybe dementia or stroke damages whatever causes a soul to - be attached (metaphysically), for want of a better phrasing. Maybe souls aren't separate from your physical existence until they are. There's just no way of knowing; there's only what organized religion, spirituality, and old white philosophers postulate.
So I guess that's kind of agnostic about souls: I don't know and neither does anyone else. Also this is probably a good time to mention that I used to have a friend who was deeply into philosophy in a Kevin-Kline-Fish-Called-Wanda way, and it pissed her off so very badly when I would say basically "I don't know and neither do you". Not to be a dick*, but because I don't know, neither does anyone else, so it's hard for me to have an actual discussion about it that's not me debating just to pass the time. Because mostly I'm hard put to convince that it matters.
*ok partially to be a dick. Because she was in-fucking-sufferable
Heh, it's always fun to be a dick, especially if doing so subtly, to someone else being a dick. I should clarify that my complaints about souls and related to my grandmother, would by necessity include the belief that souls contain all of our thoughts, memories and personalities. Because then they shouldn't change from physical maladies. And yes, I admit that I don't know, and neither do you. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything either, just saying from my POV the concept doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not sure if there is anyone more insufferable than a grown-ass person who thinks reading Nietzsche makes them super-smrt and deep.
I had a lot of discussions about souls and what they do or don't hold on the AOL Buffy & Angel boards back in ye olden days and that was always fun, from an in-universe standpoint. And of course made any number of people OUTRAGED because they held very firm beliefs about ~souls~ and I tended to approach at it from a fantasy genre standpoint. Ok still kinda do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 22:41:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean Luc de Lemur on Apr 1, 2019 23:25:46 GMT -5
I hope Us helps people rediscover thematic multivalence. My own take is closest to oppy all along’s, with even more focus on the whole horror of a transition to cynical adulthood (I thought the Heidecker-Moss family looked like absolutely terrible people, and Gabe’s jealousy of them helps show that there’s also a bit of emptiness underneath all his familial warmth, and Jason’s final look at his mother is absolutely heartbreaking), but there’s a lot else there that can be read into it. Peele made a film that people can interpret different ways simultaneously, which is a sign of a good work of art, regardless of explainer criticism telling us what the actual meaning is and why things in the film are good (or bad). And it should be embraced. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 14:12:36 GMT -5
I thought it was all right but not as good as Get Out. I understand all of the classism stuff just fine. I have no problem suspending disbelief on some of the less realistic parts of the film, e.g. they eat rabbits but what do the rabbits eat. That said, I have numbered some thoughts:
1. the twist was the most predictable twist that ever twisted. If watching a movie in which a clone appears, 9 times out of 10 O SHIT THE CLONE ISN'T THE CLONE etc. As soon as I saw the back of the head of the other girl, I sort of figured that was the way she was gonna go.
2. maybe I missed something, but it seemed pointless to set up a minor mystery about a man holding a Jim someone-or-other sign and never resolve it. Why the sign? Why is he important? Is it because his shadow lives on, holding hands? Does that mean original sign holder didn't die? Who cares?
3. it seems like a lost opportunity to show ms buddy struggling to reach a fire poker and then not have the "oh, duh" moment of realizing you can just lift the table slightly to get the handcuff off the table leg. Or, even if they used a different table design, just move the fuckin table then, noise be damned. People don't think clearly in a crisis, so I get it, but fuck.
4. Seems odd for red Adelaide not to mention "hey you're an imposter and stole my life" but I'll file that under suspension of disbelief.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 14:52:58 GMT -5
I thought it was all right but not as good as Get Out. I understand all of the classism stuff just fine. I have no problem suspending disbelief on some of the less realistic parts of the film, e.g. they eat rabbits but what do the rabbits eat. That said, I have numbered some thoughts: 1. the twist was the most predictable twist that ever twisted. If watching a movie in which a clone appears, 9 times out of 10 O SHIT THE CLONE ISN'T THE CLONE etc. As soon as I saw the back of the head of the other girl, I sort of figured that was the way she was gonna go. 2. maybe I missed something, but it seemed pointless to set up a minor mystery about a man holding a Jim someone-or-other sign and never resolve it. Why the sign? Why is he important? Is it because his shadow lives on, holding hands? Does that mean original sign holder didn't die? Who cares? 3. it seems like a lost opportunity to show ms buddy struggling to reach a fire poker and then not have the "oh, duh" moment of realizing you can just lift the table slightly to get the handcuff off the table leg. Or, even if they used a different table design, just move the fuckin table then, noise be damned. People don't think clearly in a crisis, so I get it, but fuck. 4. Seems odd for red Adelaide not to mention "hey you're an imposter and stole my life" but I'll file that under suspension of disbelief. I didn't see the twist right away, but I'm kinda dumb with those and usually (as I did this time) figure it out exactly 30 seconds before it's fully revealed. The dude holding the sign was for Jeremiah 11:11 - "Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them." A scripture that kinda fits the theme of the movie, and also the 11 11 and rabbit motifs were repeated throughout. I was wondering about the table when that was happening...I actually asked my friend "what, is the table nailed to the floor?" Red Adelaide didn't mention that because she wanted to torture the family before killing them, as all the other tethers were doing but more quickly. |
|
|
|
Post by 🔪 silly buns on Apr 2, 2019 17:34:22 GMT -5
"Thỏ" the word on Zora's shirt means "bunny" in Vietnamese. That, plus the song "Run rabbit run" in Get out...does Peele have some issue with rabbit/bunnies?
Also, someone pointed out that the Evil Zora kills the car owner by stabbing him in the groin. She falls into a lunge and stabs the guy in the dick.....in case you wanted to know.
|
|
Scruff
Grandfathered In
Posts: 606
|
Post by Scruff on Apr 3, 2019 11:27:56 GMT -5
"Thỏ" the word on Zora's shirt means "bunny" in Vietnamese. She also wore a shirt with a picture of a bunny on it. She is the child of a bunny eater/an experiment. Or it could be a leit motif. |
|
|
|
Post by Pastafarian on Jan 12, 2020 20:53:35 GMT -5
He said that and now he's deleted! Spooky! |
|
|
|
Post by Pastafarian on Jan 12, 2020 20:59:54 GMT -5
Just saw it, enjoyed it, but as others said not quite as much as Get Out. Still as concepts go it's got originality going for it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 10:18:43 GMT -5
He said that and now he's deleted! Spooky! That was Froh. He deleted himself and then came back later, as I have done a couple of times. |
|
|
|
Post by Pastafarian on Jan 13, 2020 10:23:55 GMT -5
He said that and now he's deleted! Spooky! That was Froh. He deleted himself and then came back later, as I have done a couple of times. Are we sure the Froh we have now is the one from before though? Also, why is he always wearing a glove these days? |
|
