ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 8, 2022 20:37:36 GMT -5
OK a slightly more detailed version. Yes, there's some sense that they might have at least worked something out with the characters. Almost all of the minor characters are pushed off to one side - Elfo being in Starfleet is unintentionally hilariously dismissive of him as he gets about six seconds of screentime, which is as it should be - and the focus is actually on the person for whom the show is named. Having Whoopi Goldberg turn up was a surprising breath of fresh air - it didn't completely smack of fan service and made the show suddenly feel like Star Trek again and it made Stewart up his game noticeably. It was great to see a bit of Seven Ranger-ing too (there really is a whole show there, and probably a better one than Discovery or S1 of this) and Ryan is given focus in a way she never really was in S1, even when she was ostensibly the focus. The episode was too long on set-up - Q should have arrived about the halfway mark - but all the anomaly stuff felt like Star Trek, the New Borg Queen was different enough not to (just) feel like repetition, and though it was held back too long Q's actual arrival couldn't help but elicit a smile from this bot. Some of the S1 flaws are unquestionably still there but still it felt like an improvement on S1 while still having some distance to go. Cautiously optimistic (though that was true for the first couple of episodes of S1 as well, before *effusive hand gesture* all that happened.
Thanks! I see Paramount+ has a sale going on for $1/month for 3 months. So, I put in a new email address and credit card and resubscribed at that rate. I will check it out over the weekend, along with episode 2. Another friend of mine also said they thought it was a bit better than S1 and seemed to be avoiding some of the worst character stuff from S1.
Still not tempted to try DSC Season 4, though. Maybe I'll check out one of the animated Trek shows.
I saw that season 3 of Discovery averaged a 6 or 7 out of 10 per episode on IMDb, and I thought it was just sorta-okay. Season 4 has 5s across the board. Not promising.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 9, 2022 1:22:39 GMT -5
Thanks! I see Paramount+ has a sale going on for $1/month for 3 months. So, I put in a new email address and credit card and resubscribed at that rate. I will check it out over the weekend, along with episode 2. Another friend of mine also said they thought it was a bit better than S1 and seemed to be avoiding some of the worst character stuff from S1.
Still not tempted to try DSC Season 4, though. Maybe I'll check out one of the animated Trek shows.
I saw that season 3 of Discovery averaged a 6 or 7 out of 10 per episode on IMDb, and I thought it was just sorta-okay. Season 4 has 5s across the board. Not promising.
I was intrigued by the potential of S3, but wow, that story was dumb. The episodes had all the same writing flaws as before. Still plot incoherence and a lack of character development, too much focus on Michael. I haven't even checked in on reviews/recaps for S4. I found S3 way too disappointing.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 9, 2022 6:49:14 GMT -5
OK a slightly more detailed version. Yes, there's some sense that they might have at least worked something out with the characters. Almost all of the minor characters are pushed off to one side - Elfo being in Starfleet is unintentionally hilariously dismissive of him as he gets about six seconds of screentime, which is as it should be - and the focus is actually on the person for whom the show is named. Having Whoopi Goldberg turn up was a surprising breath of fresh air - it didn't completely smack of fan service and made the show suddenly feel like Star Trek again and it made Stewart up his game noticeably. It was great to see a bit of Seven Ranger-ing too (there really is a whole show there, and probably a better one than Discovery or S1 of this) and Ryan is given focus in a way she never really was in S1, even when she was ostensibly the focus. The episode was too long on set-up - Q should have arrived about the halfway mark - but all the anomaly stuff felt like Star Trek, the New Borg Queen was different enough not to (just) feel like repetition, and though it was held back too long Q's actual arrival couldn't help but elicit a smile from this bot. Some of the S1 flaws are unquestionably still there but still it felt like an improvement on S1 while still having some distance to go. Cautiously optimistic (though that was true for the first couple of episodes of S1 as well, before *effusive hand gesture* all that happened.
Thanks! I see Paramount+ has a sale going on for $1/month for 3 months. So, I put in a new email address and credit card and resubscribed at that rate. I will check it out over the weekend, along with episode 2. Another friend of mine also said they thought it was a bit better than S1 and seemed to be avoiding some of the worst character stuff from S1.
Still not tempted to try DSC Season 4, though. Maybe I'll check out one of the animated Trek shows.
S4 of Discovery really isn't worth the bother. I'm only really watching through a sense of momentum as much as anything, and the season so far has been almost defiantly mediocre. I get that this is what some people want from Star Trek - hugs > making any sense - but I can't say I'm finding it especially engaging.
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 9, 2022 10:22:29 GMT -5
I saw that season 3 of Discovery averaged a 6 or 7 out of 10 per episode on IMDb, and I thought it was just sorta-okay. Season 4 has 5s across the board. Not promising.
I was intrigued by the potential of S3, but wow, that story was dumb. The episodes had all the same writing flaws as before. Still plot incoherence and a lack of character development, too much focus on Michael. I haven't even checked in on reviews/recaps for S4. I found S3 way too disappointing.
This. The thing is, I LIKE ALL OF THE CHARACTERS. But fucking divide the stories up between ALL OF THEM, not just "Michael is the hero and she gets to fix everything" every single goddamn time. And I love Doug Jones and Saru, and I hear they made him leave and come back and he's no longer Captain any more? COME ON!
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 10, 2022 16:36:40 GMT -5
The second episode of Picard might... actually be good? And, like, proper good, not "we'll say this is good for P+ Trek". It had Q being a dick, a bit of intrigue, some classic Trek get-the-band-back-together and it all had a bit of pace and panache. It was, dare I say it, exciting in place. Seven got real focus, which naturally I loved, and almost everyone had something to contribute. His name is Rios and he dances on the sand got to be a bit action-y, not-Tilly got to be ditzy and didn't just annoy the everloving tits off of me, and even Elfo got to kick some ass (though unsurprisingly he remains the least useful character, and long may his pointless inclusion amuse me. Someone has to fulfil the Wesley/Rom/Harry/Mayweather slot it seems). And the Borg Queen! Classic alt-reality than isn't just the fucking Mirror Universe! Phaser battle! Other stuff! The episode moved at a clip and didn't grind to a halt every time one of the characters had to look down the barrel of the camera and deliver exposition. So yes. This might have been actually-properly-good. Don't fuck it up, Picard!
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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This country is (now less of) a shitshow.
Posts: 1,860
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 10, 2022 23:06:58 GMT -5
The second episode of Picard might... actually be good? And, like, proper good, not "we'll say this is good for P+ Trek". It had Q being a dick, a bit of intrigue, some classic Trek get-the-band-back-together and it all had a bit of pace and panache. It was, dare I say it, exciting in place. Seven got real focus, which naturally I loved, and almost everyone had something to contribute. His name is Rios and he dances on the sand got to be a bit action-y, not-Tilly got to be ditzy and didn't just annoy the everloving tits off of me, and even Elfo got to kick some ass (though unsurprisingly he remains the least useful character, and long may his pointless inclusion amuse me. Someone has to fulfil the Wesley/Rom/Harry/Mayweather slot it seems). And the Borg Queen! Classic alt-reality than isn't just the fucking Mirror Universe! Phaser battle! Other stuff! The episode moved at a clip and didn't grind to a halt every time one of the characters had to look down the barrel of the camera and deliver exposition. So yes. This might have been actually-properly-good. Don't fuck it up, Picard! HOLY SHIT...yes, this episode was good. But I'm legitimately getting excited at where this story is leading... <spoiler>They're travelling back to 2024 - AKA the Bell Riots, AKA where Sisko and the DS9 crew saved the future. So if Q messed that up, and they have to go fix it, that could mean DS9 cameos...and I swear if they got Avery Brooks to agree to return, I will forgive every dumb plotline from season one.</spoiler> Maybe I'll be totally wrong, but we'll see.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 11, 2022 3:51:23 GMT -5
The second episode of Picard might... actually be good? And, like, proper good, not "we'll say this is good for P+ Trek". It had Q being a dick, a bit of intrigue, some classic Trek get-the-band-back-together and it all had a bit of pace and panache. It was, dare I say it, exciting in place. Seven got real focus, which naturally I loved, and almost everyone had something to contribute. His name is Rios and he dances on the sand got to be a bit action-y, not-Tilly got to be ditzy and didn't just annoy the everloving tits off of me, and even Elfo got to kick some ass (though unsurprisingly he remains the least useful character, and long may his pointless inclusion amuse me. Someone has to fulfil the Wesley/Rom/Harry/Mayweather slot it seems). And the Borg Queen! Classic alt-reality than isn't just the fucking Mirror Universe! Phaser battle! Other stuff! The episode moved at a clip and didn't grind to a halt every time one of the characters had to look down the barrel of the camera and deliver exposition. So yes. This might have been actually-properly-good. Don't fuck it up, Picard! HOLY SHIT...yes, this episode was good. But I'm legitimately getting excited at where this story is leading... <spoiler>They're travelling back to 2024 - AKA the Bell Riots, AKA where Sisko and the DS9 crew saved the future. So if Q messed that up, and they have to go fix it, that could mean DS9 cameos...and I swear if they got Avery Brooks to agree to return, I will forgive every dumb plotline from season one.</spoiler> Maybe I'll be totally wrong, but we'll see. He was name-dropped in this episode, when Seven called for an update from the front it was (I think) her husband that said he'd get Sisko to update her and she asks for Rafi instead. So it could be foreshadowing. Or not. It is Picard, so it might just be a clunky continuity reference (see also skulls, unnecessary links to characters we know!)
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 11, 2022 22:09:52 GMT -5
I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler....
Anyway, thanks you two for the fairly spoiler-free reviews so far. Will wait to hear what you think of Episode 3. If it is still trending positive, I will give it a try at that point. Of course, I was still thinking Season 1 was going to be okay by episode 3. So, who knows?
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 11, 2022 22:41:46 GMT -5
I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler.... Anyway, thanks you two for the fairly spoiler-free reviews so far. Will wait to hear what you think of Episode 3. If it is still trending positive, I will give it a try at that point. Of course, I was still thinking Season 1 was going to be okay by episode 3. So, who knows? I am encouraged both by the apparent quality of this season so far, as well as the revelation that they just finished principal filming on the third and FINAL season, so they have an endpoint to get to.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 12, 2022 7:28:21 GMT -5
I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler.... Anyway, thanks you two for the fairly spoiler-free reviews so far. Will wait to hear what you think of Episode 3. If it is still trending positive, I will give it a try at that point. Of course, I was still thinking Season 1 was going to be okay by episode 3. So, who knows? The combination if the two episodes they've aired and Michael Chabon's comments that seemed to indicate he genuinely understood what the problems with the first season were give me hope that this is going to have a typical Trek second season improvement.
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
Grandfathered In
This country is (now less of) a shitshow.
Posts: 1,860
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 12, 2022 12:11:45 GMT -5
I'm finally catching up on Lower Decks season two. Good god, this show is GENIUS! PRANK-CALLING ARMUS? "I am a SKIN OF EVIL!" "More like a pile of shit!" AHAHAHAHA!
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 12, 2022 22:51:37 GMT -5
I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler, I am not going to click that spoiler.... Anyway, thanks you two for the fairly spoiler-free reviews so far. Will wait to hear what you think of Episode 3. If it is still trending positive, I will give it a try at that point. Of course, I was still thinking Season 1 was going to be okay by episode 3. So, who knows? The combination if the two episodes they've aired and Michael Chabon's comments that seemed to indicate he genuinely understood what the problems with the first season were give me hope that this is going to have a typical Trek second season improvement.
Where are these Chabon comments posted?
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 13, 2022 12:57:12 GMT -5
The combination if the two episodes they've aired and Michael Chabon's comments that seemed to indicate he genuinely understood what the problems with the first season were give me hope that this is going to have a typical Trek second season improvement.
Where are these Chabon comments posted?
I mostly saw them in Morning Spoilers posts on io9. I went hunting for them but Kinja has a terrible house search engine, and google doesn't filter the results usefully.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 13, 2022 18:54:10 GMT -5
We're finally getting around to watching season 4 of Discovery, out of a mix of wanting a background show, morbid curiosity, and Saru. And I've got a question.
Isn't Stamets a mycologist? An expert in fungus? Why is he trying to solve a subspace anomaly?
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 14, 2022 23:54:56 GMT -5
I'm still utterly amazed at how well Lower Decks balances humor, inside jokes, and real fucking drama.
The last two episodes of this season were BRILLIANT. "wej Duj" showed other "lower decks" crews on Klingon and Vulcan ships actually affecting the story. (And great jokes for Pakled and Borg ones, too!)
"First First Contact" was a hell of a season finale, ending on a classic Trek cliffhanger.
This show...seriously! How the fuck do you make Pakleds both a ridiculously stupid joke species AND an actual threatening antagonist at the same fucking time?!
AND HOLY FUCKING SHIT, Captain Sonya Gomez of the Archimedes? She's former Ensign Sonya Gomez of the Enterprise D from two episodes of TNG, ONE OF WHICH WAS THE PAKLED EPISODE!!!
Oh oh oh, also, they mentioned "the rubber ducky room" as a secret place on the ship, which is a gag from the TNG Enterprise Map poster!!!
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 18, 2022 16:41:10 GMT -5
Discovery had a finale.
So this episode of Picard wasn't quite on a par with the previous two, not least because asking us to invest in Elfo's demise really isn't a good enough emotional pivot to hang the drama of the episode off. We get it, he's terribly pretty but really all those tears over Elfo? Nah. There's an attempt at some world-building, some (very) clunky social commentary, and enough elsewhere to just about keep the wheels turning. His name is Rios and the medical centre felt the most spinny of the wheels and keeping him away from the comm badge was actively poor, but at least he had a bit more chemistry with the staff at the hospital than he does with the regular crew. The Borg Queen does decently, though not-Tilly still isn't a great presence, and her listing the "rooms" in her mind felt like it should have been something delivered by Jeri Ryan or Patrick Stewart. Points, at least, for trying though.
Also, Seven's hair is fabulous.
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Posts: 1,860
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 18, 2022 16:50:27 GMT -5
Discovery had a finale. So this episode of Picard wasn't quite on a par with the previous two, not least because asking us to invest in Elfo's demise really isn't a good enough emotional pivot to hang the drama of the episode off. We get it, he's terribly pretty but really all those tears over Elfo? Nah. There's an attempt at some world-building, some (very) clunky social commentary, and enough elsewhere to just about keep the wheels turning. His name is Rios and the medical centre felt the most spinny of the wheels and keeping him away from the comm badge was actively poor, but at least he had a bit more chemistry with the staff at the hospital than he does with the regular crew. The Borg Queen does decently, though not-Tilly still isn't a great presence, and her listing the "rooms" in her mind felt like it should have been something delivered by Jeri Ryan or Patrick Stewart. Points, at least, for trying though. Also, Seven's hair is fabulous. 100% agreed on spinning wheels on Rios' scenes. That took way too long, come on! The rest was better. I really liked the Borg Queen in this! This exchange was GREAT: Borg queen: "What you have just done here is more difficult and vastly more dangerous than you realize."
Jurati: "And what is that?"
Borg queen: "You've impressed me."
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 18, 2022 17:00:48 GMT -5
Discovery had a finale. So this episode of Picard wasn't quite on a par with the previous two, not least because asking us to invest in Elfo's demise really isn't a good enough emotional pivot to hang the drama of the episode off. We get it, he's terribly pretty but really all those tears over Elfo? Nah. There's an attempt at some world-building, some (very) clunky social commentary, and enough elsewhere to just about keep the wheels turning. His name is Rios and the medical centre felt the most spinny of the wheels and keeping him away from the comm badge was actively poor, but at least he had a bit more chemistry with the staff at the hospital than he does with the regular crew. The Borg Queen does decently, though not-Tilly still isn't a great presence, and her listing the "rooms" in her mind felt like it should have been something delivered by Jeri Ryan or Patrick Stewart. Points, at least, for trying though. Also, Seven's hair is fabulous. I suspect that the season is going to be at least a couple of episodes longer than the story can completely support, hence a few slightly pointless-feeling asides (the magistrate and pals beaming onto the ship, Rios's INS adventure). It's possible that these will lead to something, but right now, they feel like padding.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 18, 2022 17:21:35 GMT -5
Discovery had a finale. So this episode of Picard wasn't quite on a par with the previous two, not least because asking us to invest in Elfo's demise really isn't a good enough emotional pivot to hang the drama of the episode off. We get it, he's terribly pretty but really all those tears over Elfo? Nah. There's an attempt at some world-building, some (very) clunky social commentary, and enough elsewhere to just about keep the wheels turning. His name is Rios and the medical centre felt the most spinny of the wheels and keeping him away from the comm badge was actively poor, but at least he had a bit more chemistry with the staff at the hospital than he does with the regular crew. The Borg Queen does decently, though not-Tilly still isn't a great presence, and her listing the "rooms" in her mind felt like it should have been something delivered by Jeri Ryan or Patrick Stewart. Points, at least, for trying though. Also, Seven's hair is fabulous. 100% agreed on spinning wheels on Rios' scenes. That took way too long, come on! The rest was better. I really liked the Borg Queen in this! This exchange was GREAT: Borg queen: "What you have just done here is more difficult and vastly more dangerous than you realize."
Jurati: "And what is that?"
Borg queen: "You've impressed me."
Oh yeah, that was a great exchange, as was the "stealing information", only slightly let down by the fact that the character that "impressed" Ms Queen was only a half-step up from Elfo in terms of actual not-suckingness.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 19, 2022 18:58:07 GMT -5
In the interests of research I decided to rewatch "Past Tense" from DS9's Season 3.
It's not terribly good.
Which is to say - it's well-written (for the most part), obviously well-meaning with a clear social point of view, and it's trying hard to stay in line with Trek's desire to pass commentary through the haze of sci-fi. What we end up with, though, is curiously uninvolving. Little of what we see in the sanctuary district has any weight to it, with almost all of the characters being noble good-un's being Done Wrong by Life or just thugs (the less said about the portrayal of mental illness the better), and everything about the situation needs a sense of scope, not two streets in a Paramount backlot and Dax in the World's Cheapest-Looking Luxury Office. BC is phenomenally annoying - sure he's meant to be but the conceit doesn't work at all, and the actor isn't remotely good enough to carry the role off. Dax's life with the high-and-mighty is meant to contrast with the poverty in the sanctuary zone, but it mostly come across like she's been pushed off to one side to look pretty while the men get on with the meat of the story (not one single female character comes across well in these episodes - even Kira's reduced to limp comedy). There's no weight whatsoever to the idea that the entirety of human history has been lost or that Sisko has to give his life to bring it back (compare, inevitably, to "City At The Edge Of Forever", which manages to make us give a shit about Joan Sodding Collins sacrificing herself in half the screentime of this two-parter). We spend ages mucking about at the start of the second episode doing nothing in particular then get a warp-speed wrap-up where Kira just tells us everything's been fixed - in voiceover - and a tag scene that's so perfunctory and clumsy they might ass well not have bothered. It's not all bad - Avery Brooks gets a few moments where he's really off the leash in the second episode, which helps a lot, and Alexander Siddig gets a few nicely underplayed moments too. Dick Miller's always good value. Jonathan Frakes, directig the second episode, does his best with the clearly limited scope. And its heart, siding with the oppressed masses, is so very clearly in the right place that it's almost actively painful to see how far short of its ambition the episodes fall. There's a lot of episodes like this in DS9's early running - in-theory successes that are easy to appreciate in abstract but which don't really work when actually having to sit down and watch them. There's almost no sense that any of this matters (in this, the casting is badly misjudged - a stronger guest cast could have done a lot with this material. Where's Ed Begley Jr when you need him?). The Bell Riots are a great piece of future-history and world-building - everything else around them is just contrivance.
What this augers for Picard, we will have to see.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 21, 2022 3:14:52 GMT -5
In the interests of research I decided to rewatch "Past Tense" from DS9's Season 3.
Are we supposed to believe that there are some other temporal shenanigans happening in 2024 in addition to Sisko, Bashir and Dax accidentally ending up then? It's very strange to me that ST: Picard is choosing this specific year, since we already had a DS9 story set in this year, which was about an event that presaged humanity's progression into a space-faring civilization.
I swear, I don't want to get into anything that is even vaguely reminiscent of ENT's completely freaking dumb "Temporal Cold War". Like, I don't want to hear about time-travelling aliens who showed up in this year to stop the social progress of Earth, while Sisko/Bashir/Dax are there trying to fix it.
Finally, if they are looking for some kind of temporal anomaly in 2024 America, maybe they should try to find the communicators that Sisko and Bashir lost, which they were completely unconcerned about. Of course, when ENT made a whole episode about a character losing a communicator on a planet it turned out to be a really dumb episode, and this obviously woudn't align with the timeline we see in DS9. So, that was just a joke, and no I don't really want to see this. Please, Trek writers. No more silly references just for the sake of the reference.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 21, 2022 20:24:27 GMT -5
We're finally getting around to watching season 4 of Discovery, out of a mix of wanting a background show, morbid curiosity, and Saru. And I've got a question. Isn't Stamets a mycologist? An expert in fungus? Why is he trying to solve a subspace anomaly? We finished it today. My immediate feeling is that it's the best season of the show so far. I'm not going to call it a masterpiece or anything, but it didn't have the tedium of the first season (with the endless Klingon and Mirror Universe scenes), it didn't have the total incoherence of the second season, and it didn't have the contrived stupidity of the third season. It had a decently propulsive plot that mostly stuck the landing, a villain that they probably went overboard in making him hateable, and it felt like Star Trek in a way that the previous three seasons didn't really to me. I don't know how much of this was lowered expectations, how much was actual competence, and how much of it was wanting this show to improve, but I thought it worked, for the most part, in a way the show hadn't really before. I'm not going to put it up against the best of Star Trek, but this season, at least, didn't feel to me like it belonged alongside the worst of Star Trek. That said, I really hope they dial back the stakes next season.
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 24, 2022 12:12:46 GMT -5
We're finally getting around to watching season 4 of Discovery, out of a mix of wanting a background show, morbid curiosity, and Saru. And I've got a question. Isn't Stamets a mycologist? An expert in fungus? Why is he trying to solve a subspace anomaly? We finished it today. My immediate feeling is that it's the best season of the show so far. I'm not going to call it a masterpiece or anything, but it didn't have the tedium of the first season (with the endless Klingon and Mirror Universe scenes), it didn't have the total incoherence of the second season, and it didn't have the contrived stupidity of the third season. It had a decently propulsive plot that mostly stuck the landing, a villain that they probably went overboard in making him hateable, and it felt like Star Trek in a way that the previous three seasons didn't really to me. I don't know how much of this was lowered expectations, how much was actual competence, and how much of it was wanting this show to improve, but I thought it worked, for the most part, in a way the show hadn't really before. I'm not going to put it up against the best of Star Trek, but this season, at least, didn't feel to me like it belonged alongside the worst of Star Trek. That said, I really hope they dial back the stakes next season. I watched the first episode of S4 a couple of days ago and really liked it. The "heart" of it was definitely there, and I felt like the crew was working together and Michael was only MOSTLY the hero of everything, not completely. Also being reminded of why Saru left the ship last season makes some sense, and his conversations with Su'Kal were wonderful. (OH hey, that's Bill Irwin again! He's so awesome!) I hope I like the rest of the season as much.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 24, 2022 13:07:27 GMT -5
We finished it today. My immediate feeling is that it's the best season of the show so far. I'm not going to call it a masterpiece or anything, but it didn't have the tedium of the first season (with the endless Klingon and Mirror Universe scenes), it didn't have the total incoherence of the second season, and it didn't have the contrived stupidity of the third season. It had a decently propulsive plot that mostly stuck the landing, a villain that they probably went overboard in making him hateable, and it felt like Star Trek in a way that the previous three seasons didn't really to me. I don't know how much of this was lowered expectations, how much was actual competence, and how much of it was wanting this show to improve, but I thought it worked, for the most part, in a way the show hadn't really before. I'm not going to put it up against the best of Star Trek, but this season, at least, didn't feel to me like it belonged alongside the worst of Star Trek. That said, I really hope they dial back the stakes next season. I watched the first episode of S4 a couple of days ago and really liked it. The "heart" of it was definitely there, and I felt like the crew was working together and Michael was only MOSTLY the hero of everything, not completely. Also being reminded of why Saru left the ship last season makes some sense, and his conversations with Su'Kal were wonderful. (OH hey, that's Bill Irwin again! He's so awesome!) I hope I like the rest of the season as much. *says nothing*
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 24, 2022 18:48:31 GMT -5
Another good episode of Picard, for the most part. The early cameo was definitely a major highlight. But there was one thing about Picard's plot that bugged me.
Remember "Time's Arrow?" Picard and Guinan have met already at this point, in 1895. Neither of them bring this up, and it's not addressed at all, unless I missed something. It wasn't the greatest two-parter, by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems like you can't just pretend it didn't happen. And it would have worked as a shortcut to her trusting him, so it's not like it would have made the episode impossible.
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 25, 2022 13:09:20 GMT -5
Another good episode of Picard, for the most part. The early cameo was definitely a major highlight. But there was one thing about Picard's plot that bugged me.
Remember "Time's Arrow?" Picard and Guinan have met already at this point, in 1895. Neither of them bring this up, and it's not addressed at all, unless I missed something. It wasn't the greatest two-parter, by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems like you can't just pretend it didn't happen. And it would have worked as a shortcut to her trusting him, so it's not like it would have made the episode impossible.
This one's actually easy! Because the timeline was changed, the Enterprise crew's trip back to 1800s never happened, so Picard didn't meet Guinan there. Except for her known sensitivity to changes in the timeline, which he uses to (eventually) gain her trust back!
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 25, 2022 13:20:13 GMT -5
Another good episode of Picard, for the most part. The early cameo was definitely a major highlight. But there was one thing about Picard's plot that bugged me.
Remember "Time's Arrow?" Picard and Guinan have met already at this point, in 1895. Neither of them bring this up, and it's not addressed at all, unless I missed something. It wasn't the greatest two-parter, by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems like you can't just pretend it didn't happen. And it would have worked as a shortcut to her trusting him, so it's not like it would have made the episode impossible.
Yep, definitely a solid episode and entertaining all the way through - hurrah for that! I did like Seven trying to drive, though this might have been one time a continuity reference would have helped. As anyone who can drive will attest, you cant just get in a vehicle and go, it takes a bit more than that. A hasty, "I'll drive, Tom Paris taught me on the holodeck!" would have covered it - cute reference, explanation and logical, all in one. It's a bugbear of mine when "character who cant drive suddenly can", and while I'm not normally one to encourage cutesy callbacks, at least this one would have made actual sense and had a purpose. I was thinking about Time's Arrow too. The origin of the Picard/Guinan friendship has always been obfuscated, intentionally so, and I can't remember exactly if TA was posited as the first time Guinan met Picard, though obviously not the first time Picard met Guinan, but I think so? It may be explained later - memory wipe, timey-wimey, Some Bafflegab - but as it stands it's a bit weird. I was also thinking - and fuck you, Picard, for making me do this - about Generations, where Guinan is Whoopi!Guinan back in Kirk's time and arrives on Earth as a refugee. But obviously this season of Picard is set prior to that. So does this version of Guinan arrive on Earth, have whatever shenanigans this season of Picard is giving us, then leave Earth, go back to El-Auria, then end up having to come back to Earth again, this time fleeing the Borg? Possible, but Generations loosely implies (though no more) that Guinan's pretty new to this whole "yikes, humans!" things. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we haven't got Deaged Whoopi or Current Whoopi Pretending To Be A Hell Of A Lot Younger, but using a conspicuously younger actor (younger from Whoopi's first S3 appearance, that is, not her current age) will throw up these questions.
The ICE (ice baby) stuff still feels a bit wheel-spinny, though.
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
Grandfathered In
This country is (now less of) a shitshow.
Posts: 1,860
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 25, 2022 13:32:40 GMT -5
Another good episode of Picard, for the most part. The early cameo was definitely a major highlight. But there was one thing about Picard's plot that bugged me.
Remember "Time's Arrow?" Picard and Guinan have met already at this point, in 1895. Neither of them bring this up, and it's not addressed at all, unless I missed something. It wasn't the greatest two-parter, by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems like you can't just pretend it didn't happen. And it would have worked as a shortcut to her trusting him, so it's not like it would have made the episode impossible.
Yep, definitely a solid episode and entertaining all the way through - hurrah for that! I did like Seven trying to drive, though this might have been one time a continuity reference would have helped. As anyone who can drive will attest, you cant just get in a vehicle and go, it takes a bit more than that. A hasty, "I'll drive, Tom Paris taught me on the holodeck!" would have covered it - cute reference, explanation and logical, all in one. It's a bugbear of mine when "character who cant drive suddenly can", and while I'm not normally one to encourage cutesy callbacks, at least this one would have made actual sense and had a purpose. I was thinking about Time's Arrow too. The origin of the Picard/Guinan friendship has always been obfuscated, intentionally so, and I can't remember exactly if TA was posited as the first time Guinan met Picard, though obviously not the first time Picard met Guinan, but I think so? It may be explained later - memory wipe, timey-wimey, Some Bafflegab - but as it stands it's a bit weird. I was also thinking - and fuck you, Picard, for making me do this - about Generations, where Guinan is Whoopi!Guinan back in Kirk's time and arrives on Earth as a refugee. But obviously this season of Picard is set prior to that. So does this version of Guinan arrive on Earth, have whatever shenanigans this season of Picard is giving us, then leave Earth, go back to El-Auria, then end up having to come back to Earth again, this time fleeing the Borg? Possible, but Generations loosely implies (though no more) that Guinan's pretty new to this whole "yikes, humans!" things. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we haven't got Deaged Whoopi or Current Whoopi Pretending To Be A Hell Of A Lot Younger, but using a conspicuously younger actor (younger from Whoopi's first S3 appearance, that is, not her current age) will throw up these questions.
The ICE (ice baby) stuff still feels a bit wheel-spinny, though. Guinan and Picard's exchange about humanity really hit me fucking hard, with everything going on today, to the point where I teared up for a minute. Guinan: "You know who has the luxury of patience here? Someone who looks like you and not like me. This world had more potential than I had ever imagined. But the hatred here, it never ends, just swaps clothes. This century took off a hood and put on a suit. You say change is coming? Well, it's too damn slow and the cost way too high. And being forced to watch it hurts." Picard: "Change always comes later than we think it should."
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ABz Bđź‘ąanaz
Grandfathered In
This country is (now less of) a shitshow.
Posts: 1,860
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Post by ABz Bđź‘ąanaz on Mar 29, 2022 12:36:12 GMT -5
I watched the first episode of S4 a couple of days ago and really liked it. The "heart" of it was definitely there, and I felt like the crew was working together and Michael was only MOSTLY the hero of everything, not completely. Also being reminded of why Saru left the ship last season makes some sense, and his conversations with Su'Kal were wonderful. (OH hey, that's Bill Irwin again! He's so awesome!) I hope I like the rest of the season as much. *says nothing* I know, I should have learned my lesson. You are absolutely right though with S4 being "hugs > making any sense". I still love all of the CHARACTERS on this show. And I am willfully trying to just enjoy them while knowing the plot probably won't work. Every time I start getting somewhat interested in the plot, I get burned. I'm like 5 eps in. Okay, so Michael and Saru were called in to help with the negotiation for NiVar to rejoin the Federation because there was some background issue about to torpedo it. Okay, so it's a bit obvious with Michael again being somehow the "only one" who could accomplish this, but at least they came up with a compromise involving an outside committee to help mediate things betw-oh for FUCK'S SAKE THE COMMITTEE IS JUST MICHAEL?! Classic Discoverysby!
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Post by Jean Luc de Lemur on Mar 30, 2022 22:56:29 GMT -5
My thoughts on the recent episode basically complement everyone else’s—pretty enjoyable with reservations, which is where this season lands in general. I also enjoyed 7’s driving, and the jokes around it were pretty Angeleno. “I’m not the worst driver here!” might be true, and her method of going right behind a car, waiting for a space to open up and again following too closely, is common here, especially among SUVs. Raffi’s “yellow means speed up” got a legit lol from me.
Downtown LA’s one-way streets are also confusing, although the geography of Picard is confusing. Teresa’s clinic being in South Central also tracks given that there’s now a big Latino population there, though the urban environment bears closer resemblance to the MacArthur Park area, which is where the map places Guinan’s bar (the address makes no sense, but that doesn’t matter); by the street sign they go to South Central, but a donation center and clinic wouldn’t be out of place in MacArthur Park, which the street also resembles more closely. I’m pretty sure Picard and Guinan’s last bit and the Watcher encounter were in the park itself. Maybe it doesn’t say something nice about the production crew that they treat the minority neighborhoods of LA interchangeable.
I went to a comedy show last night and the opener had a joke recommending that a white woman shouldn’t be more angry at the police than the black man they’re sleeping with. I kind of got that sense from the most recent episode.
In terms of internal chronology, though, it’s kind of funny Picard makes the case for human improvability pre-WWIII—there’s still a long way for the 21st century to slide in the Star Trek universe (I also liked “change always comes later than we think it should,” and come to think of it it makes a lot of sense wrt WWIII—and Star Trek: Enterprise). I also found myself wondering about the 1890s thing (worse or, to the extent it was better, it was just because they were still growing into something worst, e.g. with CO2 emissions), and it was also strange for Guinan to be working. I thought she was basically cruising on daddy’s dime (I think that was what was implied in the Gilded Age eps) or just by her own charm and wits (as with TNG).
Maybe there was some additional time travel involved before heading to the 1890s? In “Q Who” Guinan also makes a point of not having been there when the Borg attacked, so she may have been on the refugee ship for some other reason (finding relatives or something).
fwiw Ito Aghayere’s said that her age was misstated elsewhere—I think she’s 33, which was around Goldberg’s age when she first appeared on TNG (Goldberg definitely looked older/ageless, I think). I liked her righteously angry Guinan—it’s nice to see a crack in her unflappability. There’s no way they could have afforded to de-age Goldberg for the amount they used young Guinan (and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a woman de-aged, actually).
I knew they were going to encounter Guinan given her LA base in the very late 24th century, though I thought she’d be the Watcher. I’m not fond of the concept overall—it feels very Marvel-esque, kind of wrong for Trek—they’ve encountered species like this before, especially in TOS (and the Q are in this tradition too), but emphasis on encountered—we ran into them and they took an interest in our long-term development, they weren’t always looking in on us. I enjoyed catty Queen up until this point, but now she’s getting a bit much, and Pill’s pushback is getting too quippy too. Picard’s big structural weakness is that it’s Trek smushed in a Whedon-shaped hole, and that’s really showing here.
That said I do like that they’ve moved back to using Pill more specifically as a cyberneticist rather than an all-round science girl (I was surprised they were going to use the same cast as the previous season as it seemed oddly specific, but they’ve mostly done a good job). One of the big weaknesses of Paramount+ Trek as a whole is that it’s conceived more with a fandom mindset than anything else, and that includes fandom or science rather than practice of science (which old Trek was good at, in a romanticized way, regardless of the real science content).
I like the Rios-Teresa stuff, though for all of the episode’s pessimism the ICE detention area was way nicer than the real thing. I really like Rios in general, though. I was and wasn’t fond of the biological robot thing—on the one hand it went with my theory that the whole golem thing was more a merging of Picard’s body with a quasi-biological robot than a simple consciousness swap. On the other hand it betrays a lack of confidence in their own writing, which just bothers me.
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