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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on Mar 6, 2020 13:46:30 GMT -5
But on a scale of 1 to 32 drinks, How Rikered was Riker?
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 8, 2020 5:27:23 GMT -5
But on a scale of 1 to 32 drinks, How Rikered was Riker? 18
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Post by Hachiman on Mar 8, 2020 20:08:03 GMT -5
I liked the last episode "Nepenthe" but I totally get the criticism that the story doesn't really move forward.
Positives: - It was great seeing Troi and Riker again and also learning how their lives have gone. - It was good to see Picard with friends who were talking to him as an equal. They needed these kind of character moments. - It was great when Troi checked Picard about being an asshole, which felt like a long overdue character moment. There's a real sense that Picard became much weaker when he left his crew (or as they left him). - It was also nice seeing a place in the Federation that was portrayed as being unambiguously nice. Nepenthe really felt like a TNG planet, and pretty much everywhere we have visited in the Federation so far has kind of sucked.
Negatives: - So nobody knows that Zhat Vash (or whatever they are called) are a thing. But during the swordfight scene, the crazy Romulan lady was like, "this isn't how Zhat Vash fight whatever your group is called." And it really cracked me up. This would be like someone with a badge outing themselves as Illuminati while they are fighting someone in a government facility. You already had a completely legit cover, why would you blow it to rep your set, which is so secret that secret agents think it doesn't exist? So Elf guy can get back to Picard and go, "Its totally Zhat Vash because I lady I was fighting identified herself to me as such by name, even though we only had theorized they were involved up to now." Hold up, does Elf guy know anything else about Zhat Vash? Congratulations, writing team of Picard, you've created an unnecessary plothole! - I was really, really expecting Raffi to have drugged the cake with something. Truth serum, relaxants, something. But it was actually just cake. What the fuck. They are being chased and Jurati is acting super sketchy. Raffi who is a former intelligence agent with a myriad of skills and experience decided that the best option was to step away from her console and fix Jurati some actual cake and not even really talk to her about what is going on. The only takeaway here is that she wasn't a great intelligence officer and was probably a super shitty mom. No wonder her son didn't want to see her. - What happened to Maddox's body? That's not a big ship. Its got to be somewhere unless they beamed it off. - Does Rios have no security cameras, access alerts, or program logs on own his ship? Jesus, people on his ship can do anything! They can override his own programs without as much as a ping to Rios that the program was even activated. Nothing tells him if a passenger is dying. Nobody tells him that somebody is replicating hazardous materials either. And while we don't know how her tracking signal works, none of these people can figure out that they are being tracked and checks for any sorts of signals or weird chemical presences or anything else amiss? An intruder could tear through that crew without Rios noticing, kill Rios with some replicated poison, and disable any programs that try to help.Then they could steal the ship and add some user access levels and notification settings.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 9, 2020 0:48:57 GMT -5
Episode Five - The Impossible Box
* Speaking of the Borg, what's happened to them anyway? Did Voyager manage to actually deliver a mortal wound in "Endgame" as planned, taking out the (or maybe a) Queen in the process? This is literally the last event to occur this far into the future that we've seen televised prior to Picard launching. So is that why this Cube was severed from the hive? Or was there a handy ion storm or something that knocked out its power systems and it's reactivation remains a lurking, ever-present threat? Are the Borg still out there, an existential threat to everything the Federation purports to stand for? As seems to be the now rather depressing default, Picard simply cannot be bothered to explain it to us. I get that this is something to be potentially explored in the future but a few stray lines to give us some idea of what's going on would be nice - and certainly more interesting than hearing the Incest Romulans relate the same fucking conversation for the fiftieth time. • Hugh's inclusion here is... nice. Quite the co-incidence that the Borg cube that got disabled was the one that our handy previously-encountered Borg was on though, wasn't it?
It actually isn't head canon about Hugh. I'm pretty sure "Descent" is enough evidence we need to see that Hugh wasn't on any Borg cube after that. (Though I don't like those episodes and haven't seen them in a while.)
Also, the explanation of what happened to this Cube definitely isn't head canon. It is stated in an episode that the Cube attempted to assimilate a Romulan ship and shortly thereafter completely shut down, becoming severed from the Collective. This was a pretty interesting detail to me and I was hoping this would be explained. Soji also seemed interested in this, but apparently the writers of this show are not as interested as I am.
Am now watching Episode 7 - "Nepenthe".
First of all, I want to talk about a way that "mystery box" storytelling doesn't really work. All this withholding of information to produce these grand reveals doesn't work if the grand reveal isn't interesting enough to support the mystery. The opening scene with Jurati and Commodore Oh is quite frustrating. We all wanted to know what Jurati knew that made her kill Maddox. What we see is an involuntary mindmeld with Commodore Oh, in which she's shown a bunch of views of planetary destruction..... and that's it. Look, we already know Starfleet brass thinks the synthetics are dangerous and perpetrated an attack on Utopia Planitia. I was waiting for Jurati to ask, "What evidence do you have of this?" Jurati wasn't given "information". She was given some paranoid visions. Jurati is a scientist who has spent her life trying to create synthetic life. She's shown a Hollywood action reel and cries and signs up to murder to people? What? The stuff she was shown clearly hasn't happened yet. She's not remotely curious enough to ask how or why this would happen?? COME ON!!!
At this point, I'm unsure of why Jurati is considered a "good guy" and Narek a "bad guy". I'd imagine that Narek has substantially more information than "here's some FX shots of planets blowing up! Go kill synthetic life!" But, then again, maybe not. Maybe all characters on this show are meant to be dumb. The show is asking us to forgive Jurati for murder because she's been shown "something terrible". But Narek is a bad guy for doing the same?
Do the writers not find a contradiction there?
This really bothered me in this episode, which featured Narissa as a completely cartoony sneering villain. Who literally mocks people before killing them. Like, *she* is presented as a "bad guy". But these are supposed to be people who apparently legitmately think synthetic life is going to wipe out all biological life, or something. Narek acts like that. Jurati acts like that. Narissa doesn't. My God, this character is a waste. I've seen this actress in other things, and she was a better actor when she was 16 years old on a SOAP OPERA. This must be the creative staff wanting the character to be this way. It is ridiculous.
I am not happy that this show killed Hugh, one of the only interesting characters in the show. That was hacky.
I will never understand how the show could set up an interesting Borg story and then do nothing with it. This story is so much more interesting than the one they're telling with the main plot. And going into this show I was really bummed at the mere sight of a Borg cube, and thought there was nothing left to say there. Wow.
As for the La Sirena stuff....Sigh. I don't know why this series is making Raffi and Rios look so dumb. They are both picking up on the fact that Jurati is a mess, but... nothing. And it takes Rios sooooooo long to figure out they're being tracked. Like, why did he not figure this out immediately? WTF? And then he thinks Raffi is doing it? The one who drinks so much she can barely get out of bed? I couldn't tell if he even believed Jurati when she basically told him that she has the tracker. Yeesh.
I don't understand why Jurati didn't call for the EMH and ask if there was a way to get rid of the tracker? Apparently the EMH is under no obligation to file logs or reports or, say, accusations of murder, with the ship's captain, so why not give that a try?
Moving on, wow, it was nice to see Troi call out Picard for this obnoxious, self-absorbed behavior. His lack of sensitivity this season is really something to behold. Again, I want to know, are the writers trying to say something about Picard, what has happened to him? Or do they think Picard was always like this? If they are trying to say something, it feels incredibly clumsy.
Loved seeing Riker and Troi. It was just all so happy. I liked the interactions between their daughter and Soji. Don't have much else to say about these scenes because they mostly worked. Except it was bizarre to hear Federation characters saying "No good deed goes unpunished". Feels like something you'd hear from Quark or Garak. (In fact, didn't we actually hear Quark say this in some DS9 episode?) Whatever. It was nice. I really liked the young actor playing Kestra.
Hoping next week is good.
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Post by Nudeviking on Mar 11, 2020 21:58:18 GMT -5
Anyone bone yet?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 11, 2020 22:01:26 GMT -5
Episode 6 has a definite positive tally for you. Edited: Though, it wasn't particularly horny. More like sad and depressing.
I'm unsure how to treat Narek and Soji's relationship. They are clearly fucking, though it appears to be happening in between the episodes. We often see them getting out of bed the next morning to start the episode.
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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on Mar 13, 2020 21:06:53 GMT -5
Here is Pete Buttigieg intelligently interviewing/fan-gushing over Sir Patrick Stewart, from last night's Jimmy Kimmel Live!:
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 15, 2020 23:55:40 GMT -5
Aw, Buttigieg, you're okay. Loved seeing him as a kid wearing a Trek costume. Ha!
Okay, I watched Episode 8: "Broken Pieces"
I have been thinking about this for a couple days and I'm not sure what to say. I think on a fundamental level I just don't like this story. "AI goes wild and destroys things, government tries to stop it" etc. Focusing on the dangers of AI just seems such a boring story idea for Star Trek. This is overdone in SF in general, and Trek has had androids in it for 50 years! Androids were played as a joke in TOS. This franchise spent 7 years in TNG exploring Data's quest to be human. Even the appearances of Lore weren't really about "oooh, AI is so scary!". We saw Data create a daughter. We met a much more lifelike android Soong had created as Data's "mother".
This was followed up in VOY with a computer system-generated hologram that was sentient and increasingly interested in gaining equal rights.
To spend so many episodes in this series focusing on people who believe AI will bring about the apocalypse feels so retrograde for Star Trek. There are so many more interesting topics a progressive pro-tech franchise like Trek could be focusing on. Trek is a pro-tech SF franchise. Have the creators forgotten that? This is especially boring considering ST: DSC season 2 ended up being about the dangers of an AI system. Kurtzman, do you have any other ideas?
Okay, so as for this episode... let's go from stuff I didn't like to stuff I did like.
This was such a disappointing use of the Borg. Again, when I saw the Borg cube in the trailer I groaned. They were the last thing I wanted to see. However, the presentation in PIC was so interesting. But this episode squandered any potential of that setting and that story.
I am mystified over what this show is doing with Seven of Nine. I am confused that they set up such an interesting idea with her, only to completely whiff on it. "Ooh, Seven has to take control of the Cube! Is she going to be the Queen? Will she have to be reassimilated? What will happen if she hooks herself back into the Cube?" Nah, this show doesn't care. Apparently she just unhooks herself after a couple minutes and it's all fine. Okay, cool.
The show spent several minutes in an early episode hinting at what would happen if the Cube reactivates. They build up in this episode to the Cube being reactivated, and then the Romulans just go "Meh, open the doors and blow them into space". And that's it. Sigh.
I don't understand the point of Elnor.
The opening scene with the Romulans and the secret planet and the panic of what synthetic life can do.... I'm torn. I think this would have been a great scene to have much earlier in the series, as it (remarkably) helps to make Narissa almost seem like a real person. Almost. But I am still left pondering why a generic Hollywood action reel of planet destruction is enough to drive people to suicide. How is this different than any number of other scary stuff we've seen in Trek? And crucially, I don't understand why these people see what happened 200,000 years ago and believe this is inevitable now. Where are the skeptics? Why isn't anyone asking questions about this? (More on this later.) Again, this scene may have played better much earlier in the series, because by now the show has set this up as this giant mystery, when the answers are simply not compelling enough to justify the buildup.
The stuff on La Sirena is mostly okay, but not great.
Kinda hated the scene between Picard and the Admiral. I'm not a prude and I don't mind swearing in media. However, there was no fucking need for this Admiral to tell Picard to "shut the fuck up". Actually saying "SHUT UP!" would have been more powerful. This was so arbitrary. Jurati also has a completely arbitrary swear word used in this episode.
It is lame writing that Jurati can't tell Picard what she saw because of a "psychic block". Ugh. Allison Pill is doing a great job, but her character is a mess. Why was what she saw powerful enough to get her to murder her lover, but she gets a look at Soji and suddenly is not scared anymore?
Amazing that the EMH can now pop up and explain to them all how Jurati killed Maddox. Amazing that there doesn't seem to be a requirement to report this stuff to Rios.
Rios in this episode is...Again I'm torn here. Because I do like the show actually finally telling us about Rios's backstory, and explaining some of why he is depressed and bitter. And I really liked Santiago Cabrera in these scenes. I really liked the scene of Rafi interrogating ALL the holograms at once. But, it felt redundant earlier when she tried talking to a couple of them individually.
I loved the scene of Rafi and Rios talking about what had happened to Rios. Thought both of the actors were great in that. However, it seems silly to me that Rios's tragic backstory is related to the exact AI story that Picard is involved in. That is way too convenient. I'm willing to just go with this, but it is disappointing.
The two scenes I enjoyed the most involved Picard. One is the scene with Picard and Soji alone where Picard talks to her about her experiences and memories. Picard is able to be much more empathetic here than we've lately seen. I like that the show can use Patrick Stewart's performance and the music to hint at Picard's experience in "The Inner Light" to explain how Picard can empathize with Soji, without having him make an explicit mention of it. And I enjoyed them talking about Data, and especially that Picard had trouble articulating the nature of his relationship with Data.
Finally, the only scene in a long time that has made complete coherent sense to me was the conversation between Picard and Rios near the end. I liked that Rios seemed generally on the "synthetics aren't bad" side, but did express a worry that this Romulan faction might be right. And thank God, Picard finally expressed some skepticism toward this idea and gave a wonderful speech about "that was then, this is now, we don't know what will happen in the future", etc. I don't understand why no one else but Picard is making this argument, but I am exceedingly glad to hear someone say it.
So, this was something of a mixed bag episode for me. I did enjoy most of the character work in it, but I'm increasingly uninterested in the story.
Oh, and Jurati indicated that it might not even be the androids themselves that cause the problem, but when the AI passes a certain threshold that it triggers something else that causes the destruction. I don't know, this all just seems hard to care about on a series where we've seen the Q, the Metrons, the Organians, and several other species with immense power. I sincerely hope S2 has a better story idea.
PS. I did also like the scene where Picard tried to sit in the captain's chair and take command, but then couldn't work the fancy controls. LOL
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Post by Hachiman on Mar 16, 2020 21:52:29 GMT -5
I was really hoping for more discussion of episode 8, but I also thought the stuff on the Cube has ended up bring pretty pointless and disappointing.
The plan of the Zhat Vash for that matter is equally weird. These people are so overzealous that they allowed their own Empire to disintegrate and allowed the deaths of nearly a billion of their own people to happen so they could sabotage the Federation's AI development? This was the absolute best plan they could come up with?
And Commodore Oh being a Romulan/Vulcan was such a copout to avoid any raising any interesting questions while raising new ones like how this person got through the ranks of the Federation over what must have been decades. You'd think she could have found some time to shoot Data at a Starbase or something, or track anyone who left the Daystrom Institute and discreetly dispose of them. All this could have been avoided if they just kidnapped Bruce Maddox as soon as he tried to leave Earth. Nice to see that they are about as good at containing threats in the future as they are at containing threats now.
Raffi is the world's worst investigator and I am wondering if she got kicked out of Starfleet because she was terrible at her job rather than because she was Picard's assistant. The Rios connection is just too easy. Space is big but they just so happen to meet the only other person to have come in contact with the synths? He couldn't have just been motivated by a bad experience with Starfleet?
I also love that there is zero security for Dr. Jurati. You'd think they would at least lock her in her room or something.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 17, 2020 2:07:37 GMT -5
I was really hoping for more discussion of episode 8, but I also thought the stuff on the Cube has ended up bring pretty pointless and disappointing. The plan of the Zhat Vash for that matter is equally weird. These people are so overzealous that they allowed their own Empire to disintegrate and allowed the deaths of nearly a billion of their own people to happen so they could sabotage the Federation's AI development? This was the absolute best plan they could come up with? And Commodore Oh being a Romulan/Vulcan was such a copout to avoid any raising any interesting questions while raising new ones like how this person got through the ranks of the Federation over what must have been decades. You'd think she could have found some time to shoot Data at a Starbase or something, or track anyone who left the Daystrom Institute and discreetly dispose of them. All this could have been avoided if they just kidnapped Bruce Maddox as soon as he tried to leave Earth. Nice to see that they are about as good at containing threats in the future as they are at containing threats now.
It really seems incredible that the Zhat Vash would allow the death of hundreds of millions of Romulans just to stop Federation AI. You're afraid of AI development because it will bring about the destruction of worlds, but you allowed your world to be destroyed along with most of your people to prevent this? What?
I also wished Commodore Oh was purely a Vulcan, because it would lend the Zhat Vash more credibility if they'd managed to recruit people from other species, especially a Vulcan. Did no other species find this planet and this "message"? Don't the Romulans wonder why they're the only ones interested in this? Why is the Zhat Vash secret? If this is so important, why don't they broadcast it to the universe? Why is the information restricted to a small number of people? Who are all Romulan women?
(Does this mean Narek really is regular Tal Shiar? Has he not seen this vision?)
And yes, I did spend some time wondering why they were totally okay with Data for all those years. Why didn't the Zhat Vash simply destroy Data years ago? Where's Lore? Did they see the report about Soong recreating his wife as an android? Where's that android now? (Why is Picard saying Data was the last one?) Why didn't they just kill Bruce Maddox decades ago?
It was weird that Raffi kept asking the individual holograms where Rios was, when they kept telling her "He's in his quarters". This seemed like nothing but filler. The big scene with all the holograms was fun and interesting, but the other scenes were mostly pointless.
I was so disappointed in this Rios reveal. I mean, the idea that he witnessed his captain do something horribly unethical and then kill himself is a great backstory. I was hoping that whatever Rios's deal was would be something related to whatever the plot would be in Season 2. Tying it in with the S1 story is bad writing. As you say, it really shrinks the universe and stretches credulity to believe Rios's dark past is related to another Bruce Maddox-created android.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 17, 2020 11:24:26 GMT -5
Episode Eight - Shrug
I did watch it but I'm not motivated to say a lot more than that, really. It was just a bunch of expoisition vomited on screen in the usual structureless way. The Grief World, though? Really? That's the explanation for the Zhat Vash's millenia-long problem with AI? And what happened on Mars? I mean, it's an explanation but it's really not an especially satisfying one. Though - and this is the real problem - there really wasn't going to be a satisfying resolution to the "why the Zhat Vash hated AI for so long" question. Because, how can there be? It's either going to be evilevilfromthedawnoftime, some bullshit Mystical Orbs thing that would be less well than the Orbs Of The Prophets, or Godlike aliens. Turns out it's basically the first one. Shrug. There's no sense of this even really functioning as a ta-da! reveal, it's just another piece of information trotted out. And how many people did they let die just to stop the Federation's AI development? Does this make even the slightest bit of fucking sense? No. Not it does not.
Seven's back, great, that's nice. Takes over a Cube for a bit, misjudges things, a bunch of Borg get blown out into space. That sure filled five minutes or so of time. Didn't achieve an awful lot more than that though. Seven's whole emotional arc over four seasons of Voyager is how she is essentially an analogy for an abuse survivor and how she recovers from that trauma (and what is essentially the trauma of cult deprogramming), and it's incredibly powerful and successful, not least because of just what an amazing actor Jeri Ryan is. Here she reconnects to the Borg here like she's plugging in a toaster, then it's all done in about five minutes flat. Guess she really is better huh? Shouldn't this be an absolutely horrifying existential nightmare for her, not a quick move-the-plot-forward bit? How did she even get on the Cube? Elnor calls for her, then magically she appears with no further explanation (she didn't even have a ship the last time we saw her). Eh, the story doesn't feel like explaining, so why should we care? Shrug.
Picard is still on this show right? Because - last week's exception-that-proves-the-rule aside - there's not much feel that this show is really about Picard. It seems to be about Borg, and former Borg, and Soji, and the Incest Twins Of Evil, and androids and very rarely about the guy who's name is there in the title. Bit of an oversight really. Here Picard is mostly present for other people to exposit things at him, often Jurati who had a mind block to prevent her talking about her VISIONS OF DOOOOOM! but now doesn't have a mind block because apparently foaming at the mouth a bit fixes mind blocks and now she can talk about VISIONS OF DOOOOOM! Oh and now they need Starfleet I guess? Which is great, because they can tell Picard to shut the fuck up! Shrug.
Two episodes left Picard. Please fix the basic ability to tell a story.
Any Other Business:
I guess there was some? I'm not motivated to find out what it was though.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 22, 2020 20:43:33 GMT -5
I have seen episode 9, I promise. I am just struggling to figure out what to say. Even moreso than last week. So, here's some random thoughts in no particular order. Why is the plot of this series simply Mass Effect? Why do these modern Trek writers introduce conflicts into their story and then dispense of them right away? This happens in Discovery all the time. I don't mean stuff they introduce in one episode and then forget about in a later episode, which also happens all the time. I mean individual scenes in a single episode that are then contradicted later in that same episode. We saw this in the Casino Planet episode of ST: PIC wherein we learned all about the scary henchman who could smell lies. An entire scene was built around this, but hey, no worries. We'll just give Rios a drug. Problem solved. Or, in episode 8, "ooh, Seven's going to hook herself up to the Borg Cube and the Borg are going to reactive and retake control!" Next scene: Nah, Narissa blows them all into space and Seven simply unhooks herself. (Why were the real Borg blown into space but Seven/Ellnor and apparently quite a few EB's were not? Also, what happened to all the non-Romulan researchers and scientists who were there?) Here we see it in, "Oh, Ellnor and Hugh couldn't have survived. That Borg Cube is massive. Something that big falling that fast would be totally destroyed when it hit the ground.". Next scene: Borg Cube is fine, tons of Ex-Borg walking around, they even have the replicators and scanners working! I do not understand what the writers think they are doing with this. Why does this show think they can build intense character relationships in, like, 4 episodes? The scene of Raffi and Picard saying "I love you" was completely ludicrous. And I'm completely baffled by the way the scene between Rios and Jurati was portrayed. They just met about 10 days ago. They had pity sex once. She killed a dude! Why was this played as some tender, romantic scene? I never thought I'd miss 26 episode seasons, but at least those allowed the writers to develop the characters and their relationships. I'm not entirely sure the plot of this series makes sense. Aside from the general Mass Effect-esque nature of it, I guess. Critically, I'm not sure how the revelations of Episode 9 are supposed to make the Romulans and Zhat Vash *wrong*. The evil android sneers that the Romulans didn't understand the visions.... but it kinda seems they did? They knew that once androids achieved a certain level of.... something (sentience?), that they could call upon *something* more advanced that would help them destroy all life. This is the message that Jurati tells Picard was in the vision. It feels like the show has created a "chicken or the egg" problem. AKA, it's a circular problem. What is causing what? This also seems such a disappointing problem for Trek to be dealing with, considering both TNG and DS9 featured the Federation/Starfleet pondering whether it would be worth committing genocide to stop a dangerous threat (Borg/Dominion). And.... really? There is some unknown, powerful group of synthetic beings who are watching the galaxy and will respond if called for by other synthetic beings? Really??? Is this the story any of the fans wanted when we heard that Trek would finally have a series set post-DS9/VOY/Nemesis? Is "evil AI" really the story Trek thinks speaks to our time? There's a lost story here about Romulan refugees, retreating empires, racism, and the struggles to maintain utopia under extreme stress from outside your borders. It amazes me that the talk behind both DSC and PIC was that it was going to be Trek that would be more in touch with the modern era, but they both ended up being "Evil AI" stories, while DS9 continues to be much more in touch with modern world affairs, even thought it is from 25 years ago.
PS. Brent Spiner's appearance in this episode is ridiculous. Sorry, I don't mean his acting, but the entire existence of this character.
I'm now very concerned about Discovery Season 3. For a long time I was convinced that a lot of the plotting problems in DSC were related to the insane idea to make it a prequel. But PIC proves that even when set in the future, the writing can still be nonsensical.
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Post by Hachiman on Mar 23, 2020 0:41:55 GMT -5
Or, in episode 8, "ooh, Seven's going to hook herself up to the Borg Cube and the Borg are going to reactive and retake control!" Next scene: Nah, Narissa blows them all into space and Seven simply unhooks herself. (Why were the real Borg blown into space but Seven/Ellnor and apparently quite a few EB's were not? Also, what happened to all the non-Romulan researchers and scientists who were there?) Here we see it in, "Oh, Ellnor and Hugh couldn't have survived. That Borg Cube is massive. Something that big falling that fast would be totally destroyed when it hit the ground.". Next scene: Borg Cube is fine, tons of Ex-Borg walking around, they even have the replicators and scanners working! I do not understand what the writers think they are doing with this. That's two times they have benched any thing interesting happening on the Cube. The writers obviously don't want it in play, but then why have it in the first place? And what did happen with the Federation civilians like Soji's friend? Are they on the Cube? Did they get off? It's crazy and I can't see how they will redeem this thread. This really bothered me. She is just de-arrested or something? She even asks if she's still under arrest and they all just kind of shrug. Aren't they worry she is going to bolt or something? And Rios being all emotional later was weird. He barely knows her and she killed someone in cold blood. You would think that this would mess him up considering the history he had with his Captain. From a character standpoint, he should be in a super bender at this point and really questioning his judgement skills. I'm kind of okay with the idea of super synths out there since we've seen plenty of Godlike beings show up and then disappear. Their plan doesn't make a ton of sense though. Leaving behind a message that would spur organics to destroy synths was dumb. It would have been more interesting if it was about both sides trying to figure out the message and having to work with various clues that different groups had figured out, like mash-up of the "Omega Directive" and that TNG episode "The Chase" Like, maybe the XB's had a few clues that the Collective had figured out, and Romulans had a few more (that scared them senseless) and the synths had worked out most of the rest on their own since they are smarter. But that would have given us a much more coherent story than what we are getting. That is what has soured me on both this and Discovery. Trek doesn't always have to be optimistic or even comment on our times, but it has to say something, and it is hard to figure out what this or Discovery have been trying to say. Hopes are not high for the next season of Discovery, especially since the previews make it look like there isn't a Federation anymore. If I wanted Star Wars, then I would watch Star Wars.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 23, 2020 5:52:45 GMT -5
I'm kind of okay with the idea of super synths out there since we've seen plenty of Godlike beings show up and then disappear. Their plan doesn't make a ton of sense though. Leaving behind a message that would spur organics to destroy synths was dumb. My problems are more that we’ve never heard about this before? How are these super synths hiding? And also, speaking of these godlike beings, would Q allow organic life to be wiped out? More though, it is your second point that bothers me. This is what I was getting at when I said that I don’t understand how this makes the Romulans/Zhat Vash wrong. These super synths left a message saying that as soon as synthetic life achieved a certain level that they would show up and help destroy organic life. So, like, why would organic life forms then be wrong to try to prevent that level of advancement in synthetic lifeforms? Really finding it tough to say that Narek was on the wrong side, here. But this brings me back to one of my earlier points, if this is the message, why did only this tiny secret Romulan society know about this? Why didn’t they take the message to the governments of every galactic power? “Ooh, we found this horrifying threat to wipe out life! Better keep this secret!” What? When I said that this created a “chicken or the egg” problem, that’s what I meant. The synths want to destroy organic life b/c the organic life wants to destroy them. But the organic life wants to destroy them because synths left a message saying they were going to destroy organic life. It isn’t really circular, though. None of this would be happening if the synths hadn’t left that message. They provoked this reaction. Which is why I can’t feel like the Romulans are entirely wrong. And that leaves us with “evil AI threatens to destroy life” as a story, which feels so dated and un-Trek. There were no androids on that planet who could logic their way to “Hang on, maybe the only reason they've been trying to destroy us is because they saw this message that said we would wipe them out?
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Mar 26, 2020 8:58:17 GMT -5
Spoilers for the season finale I guess:
It took 10 episodes for this show to tell a story that TNG/DS9/VOY would have told in one episode, and even after 10 hours it still feels like nothing happened. Oh, lots of stuff *seemed* to happen! But none of it actually mattered in the end! What was the point of so-and-so person or such-and-such thing...nothing. Just forget about them, they weren't important.
I liked it a lot, but the parts I liked the most were the parts that ended up not mattering, and not the parts that the show apparently wanted me to like, if that makes sense.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 27, 2020 11:05:11 GMT -5
Episode Nine / Ten - "Et In Arcadia Ego" Pts 1 And 2
When the poster is better than the show...
So Picard is a Cylon. Huh. When, at the end of episode eight, I pleaded for the series to fix its basic ability to tell a story I didn't actually expect that to happen. And lo and behold it didn't. Episode Nine - which consists of the same old go-not-very-far-slowly that has become Picard's storytelling modus operandi - goes through the usual stop-start motions of delivering exposition a lot, followed by small bits of forward plot momentum, followed by more exposition. The small bits of forward plot momentum are often huge bits of forward plot momentum but rarely feel so, even when - to take a far-from-arbitrary example - a Borg cube crash-lands on a planet, our heroes do the same thing, and a vast Romulan fleet zips into orbit. There's absolutely no emotional or storytelling change of pace between those scenes and people sitting around a campfire exchanging bits of expository dialogue, most of which is delivered with all the passion and sustained enthusiasm of a bored civil servant on a Friday afternoon. There's very little sense that any of this matters to anyone, and when we're discussing a potential genocide that's a serious problem. Episode Ten starts off the same way again then valiantly, and completely unsuccessfully, veers off into a TNG style of storytelling. The TNG style is instantly more affecting and interesting but it's too little too late. And there's a good reason for that. This show has done an appalling job of making us care about Picard as a character, and that's been it's Achilles Heel. Talk about this not being the same Picard we encountered in TNG is fine - the character should have moved on from those days. But the show depends 100% on our familiarity and good-will towards the old version of the character and does absolutely none of the legwork to make us care about this version of the character. It wants to rely on the goodwill towards a version of the character than isn't in this show and that's where the struggle to make any of the emotional investment we're supposed to have falls. And it's why the sudden veering into a TNG style of storytelling - replete with musings on mortality, the place of prejudice within an individual, hope over fear etc - doesn't work. In isolation it's fine - occasionally even great. And it's not that's it's unwelcome, it's that after nine and a quarter episodes of the lead character being largely side-lined in favour of a supporting cast that never became compelling it simply feels tacked on, a way of trying to wring some kind of emotional cadence out of a situation that hasn't earned it. Stewart's great at Shakespeare so they give him one of the best-known Shakespeare speeches of all. Fine. He can deliver on that, of course he can. But there's a lingering sense of "...and?" that the show nor the character ever manage to break free of. That's especially true when it comes to Picard being downloaded into the golem, a shameless reset-button that even Voyager might looks askance at. Because "...and?" is the biggest question of all to come out of that plot "twist". We're reassuringly told that Picard's new body doesn't come with any "superpowers", will age just like his real body, and he'll die just as he would have had he not had whatever the brain tumour thing was (I guess not Irumodic Syndrome after all meaning Picard had not one but two brain diseases, which is bad luck in anyone's book). So... what's the point? What storytelling options is that opening up? What character development will that give us? The show goes out of its way to re-enforce just how little its own revelations matter, so why are we supposed to care? So Stewart can have a nice scene where all his rather bland new friends can gather round him looking a bit sad while the real friend who was on screen fifteen second earlier to save the day warps away in ignorance? Imagine what a death scene between Stewart and Frakes would look like! Arrgh! This is all just so pointless, and that it's preceded by Picard "killing" Data and the usual platitudes about mortality giving meaning to life just makes it worse. Any show which goes out of its way to so undermine its own finale has absolutely and completely not fixed its problems. The TNG mode of storytelling at the end might give some hope for Season Two but the end of Season One doesn't give us any reason to even understand why these people are all leaving on the same ship together. Hey look, Seven's joined the crew! Great! Hopefully she'll be a regular in the next season because she - and Jeri Ryan - is way more interesting than anyone else on this crew, but she's just there in the final couple of shots (fingers interlocked with Raffi, who's back in friendly-mom mode if you were spinning the What's Raffi's Emotional State This Episode wheel). I haven't even mentioned yet how wasted Seven is - she kills Narissa, which is great and inevitable but does nothing else other than hanging around for a bit so she can be in the final ensemble shot. So yeah. Not great. And what's most annoying about all this is that the few moments of real quality that do peek out show you how good all of this could have been. Or if you're feeling generous, might be in the future. The scenes in the simulation between Data and Picard are contrived in terms of Data still being alive (B4, it turns out, wasn't completely useless though you really have to be paying attention to pick that up) but the actual resonance between the two characters lands and feels true. Spiner does surprisingly well in his dual role as Alton Soong - playing "other" versions of Data or the Soong family hasn't exactly been his strong point in the past but he delivers well here so all credit where its due. His death is affecting here in exactly the way it wasn't in Nemesis and though it's a long way round for a short cut the sight of him ageing on the sofa while, in shadow, Picard in his TNG-era uniform holds vigil over him is genuinely moving. Picard's death scene contributes nothing to the character but of course Stewart sells the hell out of it, and again manages to find depths that's not really there on the page. The couple of scenes with Riker on the bridge of his ship are great, Riker back with that shit-eating grin we love so much as he faces down the enemy. I'm not going to claim that the show we should have is one with the old characters - actually I think the opposite is true and relegating the TNG crew to an occasional cameo is the correct approach. But what having those characters around does do is allow us to see how this show ought to function, with real emotional connections between characters. In "Encounter At Farpoint", Picard opens up to Riker that he's terrible with kids. He practically yells it, in fact. And he orders Riker to re-attach the saucer section manually. There's an immediate emotional connection between those two characters from the word go, even if that connection is Riker looking frankly terrified of his imposing new captain. Raffi hasn't managed that ten episodes in, no matter how often she calls Picard J-L. The biggest problem, ultimately, isn't that the new characters aren't the old characters, the problem is that the new characters aren't (yet) good enough to take their place. And that it for Season One. It would be a lie to say it's been anything other than a bit disappointing. There's been some moments where the show has shined but too few of them to make it easy to invest in. Picard himself has remained too side-lined in a show that's named after him and the basics of storytelling seem to have strangely eluded the show from the word go. It's not been a complete disaster, and it's still more watchable than Discovery, but even while the last half hour or so gives hope for the future it can't manage to erase the disappointments of the past. This show had so much good will going in and it's repeatedly taken that good will and just pissed it up against a wall. I hope Season Two will be better. Our crew fly off into the sunset, having prevented an ill-defined disaster that seemed way too easy to solve, so they can jet off to newer and more exciting things. Maybe the next season will have an over-arching plot like this one. Maybe it'll be Murder, She Wrote In Space (I'm fine with that as option). Or maybe The Rockford Files, But With Picard And A Spaceship Instead Of A Trailer In The Desert. I'm fine with that too. I just don't want to see more of the same, I want the show to - at the very least - learn from its mistakes this time out. I'm doubtful I'll do an episode-by-episode write up of it - unless you all shamelessly bully me into doing it - because I don't think the show has done enough to justify that kind of investment. And, really, that's the saddest thing of all. Any Other Business: • And that's it for Season One of Picard! I hope you've enjoyed reading along and commenting. • I don't really like that snap-into-place-coming-out-of-warp effect. It's the same one Battlestar Galactica used and I feel that Star Trek's slow-down-coming-out was more distinctive. I get the need to make it look like things have moved on - the speedy transporters do that quite well - but that effect just isn't working for me. • The orchids that languorously drift up from the planet to envelop starships are fantastic and worthy of considerable praise. There's a weirder, stranger and altogether more fascinating show - the same one with space Vegas and ooouttttrageous French accents - where space flowers stop gunships and I'd love to see it. Oh wait, it's called Farscape. But still - Picard desperately needed more of that kind of distinctive weirdness to mark it out. It's another example of these two episodes getting one thing right and therefore making everything else suffer by comparison. • I thought a Borg cube crashing on the surface of a planet would be a bit more... I dunno. Spectacular? Guess not. • Seven is in Episode Nine for about three minutes and with absolutely nothing of relevance to do. • She's in Episode Ten too, which hints at the idea that she might actually be suicidal, or at the very least have no interest in whether she lives or dies, and glosses over this in the most facile way imaginable. Yes, just like her creating a Collective a few episodes ago! • Rios was in these episodes • Didn't like the clumsy "Picard manoeuvre" reference. I guess some will, but it felt too on-the-nose. • Christ this crew are crap sometimes. They come up with a plan to blow up the transmitter, actually smuggle explosives in to the camp and then... throw them directly at Soji who just catches them and throws the bomb away before it goes boom. For. Fuck's. Sake. • There's no weight to the idea of the artificial lives coming to wipe out the organics. It's only ever described in purely abstract terms, and when we do get to the point where they may actually invade our space they're just a random series of slightly snake-like thing in a hole that could come from any computer game ( here's one from 1987, for fuck's sake) or indeed the end of the first Avengers film. • Seven killing Narissa with the "that's for Hugh" line should have been way more impactful. It's a poorly directed fight scene and it doesn't feel satisfying when Narissa gets her comeuppance, there's just relief that she's not on the damned show any more. • You know, for a secret organization that have spent millennia on their mission they sure do give up easily when Soji is persuaded that one time. Hope she never changes her mind! • Hey remember when Jurati (I keep using her last name because Agnes sounds weirdly prosaic for a show like Picard) was meant to be handed over to Starfleet for the murder of Maddox? Coz the show sure doesn't, not even when two hundred ships turn up... • It's lovely to see Riker again. Of course it fucking is. I actually do like the fact that Picard keeps quiet about his condition and allows Riker to warp off, but I still lament not getting a death scene between those two characters. • Picard keeps using "Blue Skies" as it's go-to emotive bit of music. It kind of works here. • Well, better than the butterfly motif, which is winsome and twee in a way Star Trek almost never is. • One of the running themes throughout all ten episodes of the show has been the ban on synths, how it's not fair and has been made out of fear and prejudice, one of Picard's through-lines. Here the ban is overturned in a single line, without any further explanation or justification, not even a "well, Starfleet's discussed the situation and..." fig-leaf. It's that sort of attention to detail that's really marked this show out. • And off to Season Two we go....
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Mar 27, 2020 20:26:37 GMT -5
• I don't really like that snap-into-place-coming-out-of-warp effect. It's the same one Battlestar Galactica used and I feel that Star Trek's slow-down-coming-out was more distinctive. I get the need to make it look like things have moved on - the speedy transporters do that quite well - but that effect just isn't working for me. The new movies do that too, as do the new Star Wars movies (there's a funny bit in Rogue One where a Star Destroyer pops out of hyperspace and a rebel ship crashes into it). So I assumed it was a JJ Abrams thing.
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Post by Hachiman on Mar 27, 2020 21:25:31 GMT -5
Some thoughts:
- It is weird that these episodes amounted to what would actually be a 2-parter on one of the older Trek shows. The only difference is that we've been shown more of the steps that older shows would cut out. I mean, how many episodes with somebody running from somebody else? How many episodes came down to a character deciding to activate some device? How many episodes ended with the Federation showing up and things going back to normal? By that standards, its not bad. But by the standards the show set out to establish, it's not great.
- Agnes not going to jail really bothered me. I don't care that she had a change of heart of did the right thing, this is a universe very much about law and order. Remember when Bashir's parents got sent to jail? It didn't matter what they did in the interim. The show was clear that they needed to pay for their crime (and Federation prison didn't feel like it was a terrible place to go). Shit, Picard never let up on Ensign Ro for her past screwups and she was a way better character.
- The whole story with the Borg and Elf-guy (whose name I still can't be bothered to look up since he was so unimportant!) was a giant red herring that went nowhere and amounted to nothing. We didn't even find out what happened with the other XBs.
- Commodore Oh is fucking terrible at her job. When Riker shows up, she doesn't even try to hide her involvement and have someone else answer the hail. This is worse than when Narissa blew her cover to Elf-guy for literally no reason. I mean, all Picard and Rafi have are some conjectures. Nothing has for sure been proven yet. Oh doesn't even know if they have figured anything out yet. She's just there to kill the synths. And we didn't see or hear Picard tell anything to Starfleet. Not even a throwaway line about sending all of the non-evidence that they have. Riker isn't even surprised to see Oh. Its all so shoddily done!
- So the Tal Shiar just do not give a single shit about the Romulan people and continuing/protecting Romulan civilization? We've established that, right? They could be rebuilding their Empire, but they have their own holy war they are concerned with instead. Ok then.
- Was it ever established that the Vulcans came from somewhere else? Narek is like, "this is from before our ancestors arrived on Vulcan" Did he mean to say "Romulus?" Because I feel like the Vulcans having a totally different homeworld is new information. Their history is super garbled though so whatever.
- Then Starfleet shows up with a ton of ships. I am almost willing to allow this since the franchise has shown the ability to materialize fleets out of thin air before, but its weird when this show made a point of saying how Starfleet is weakened to the point there is this giant lawless area and they have no way to help or anything to the point that you have vigilantes like Seven running around. And it was a lot of ships. Like more ships than we saw during the attack on Cardassia. Didn't the admiral say an episode or so back that she had like 6 ships waiting for him at a Starbase? A lot more than 6 came to their rescue.
- The super synths reminded me of Avengers mashed up with the Urdru Jahad from the first Hellboy movie. We never even found out if they were really evil. They might have shown up and simply helped the synths ascend to their plane, which seems more in keeping with Star Trek than. "Nope, they were actually evil. Everyone on both sides interpreted their message correctly, even though everyone who actually saw the message was crazy."
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 28, 2020 2:36:18 GMT -5
I pretty much hated the entirety of the final two episodes. The story is boring.
Also, it seems weird to me that Picard's whole deal is "Androids should be treated equally!" and then the closing theme of the season is "Humanoids are better because they're mortal" a la, "A butterfly isn't a butterfly if it lives forever". Should these two ideas really be in the same episode/season? One of them seems to undercut the other. And then after establishing that mortality is superior, they make Picard an android. This is an incoherent mess.
And the show made a big freaking deal about the Federation synth ban, and here they just handwave it away, "Oh, that's been overturned". Wow.
Crucially, I still don't understand why the Romulans are supposed to be wrong and/or bad? It seems to me that they are 100% right. Like, Jurati murdered a dude because she was convinced the synths were bad, but no one cares, she's a good guy. But Narek actually didn't kill anyone, he just tried, because he was convinced the synths are bad, but he's a villain. What?
And in these episodes, Narek is teaming up with the La Sirena people to stop the synths. So, the synths are actually the villains of the season? Except we didn't know that until the end of episode 9? And the Romulans were right all along? I don't think this stuff makes any narrative sense.
Seriously, though, why is Jurati not arrested? And why is Rios totally okay with having a romance with this woman who literally just murdered her last lover?
Why does Commodore Oh get to fly off at the end? Riker doesn't take her into custody? What?
What is the point of both Elnor and Rios on this show? Not even sure Rafi has a point.
I want to point out that in Episode 9, the synths hand Rios/Rafi a magic wand. It's a gadget that does whatever you want it to do. Rios just waves it at the ship and it does what he imagines. Jurati uses it to clone hundreds of ships. It is a fucking magic wand! Unreal.
Why did they even bother bringing Seven of Nine onto this show? I still can't get over the fact that she hooked herself up into the cube, essentially becoming the Borg Queen, and then, like, 2 minutes later, she's all, "Okay, we're done with that. Moving on." What a baffling story choice.
Did they literally run out of money so that they had to use copy/paste on the Federation ships at the end? Wow, that looked bad.
Again, I have to ask, why does this show constantly set up conflicts, and then undermine them *within the same episode*? This episode is the clear winner of the season for this. Picard DIES, but no worries, we'll just download him into this golem. Which remarkably looks exactly like him, oh AND it is programmed to "die" at the time Picard naturally would. So...it's exactly the same? LOL, I'm sorry, but really? This is SOOOOOO bad.
Why are we spending time watching people who we just met mourn over Picard? Who cares! Why does Rios care about him that much? Jurati? Why??
In conclusion, no one writing for this show knows how to write serialized television. They think they are writing serialized tv, but they're really not. They aren't telling one story, with one theme, with a goal the characters are striving to reach. No one knew what the show was about until the end. And I'm not sure I know what it was about even *after* watching the end. The goals changed every episode. And it wasn't that they were accomplishing one goal that propelled them towards the next one, a la "Breaking Bad". They just dropped goals, and moved on to new ones. "Find Maddox!" Oh, yeah, he didn't matter. "Save Soji from the Romulans". Wait, the Romulans are right? It was constantly like this.
This same sloppy writing is what makes ST: Discovery so bad. There is no connective tissue. It is entirely, "And then this happens. And then this happens. And then this happens" but none of those things need to be related to each other. Nothing builds or develops. It is terrible writing.
PS. The big bad was a robotic tentacle monster. Wow.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 28, 2020 2:50:41 GMT -5
Spoilers for the season finale I guess: It took 10 episodes for this show to tell a story that TNG/DS9/VOY would have told in one episode, and even after 10 hours it still feels like nothing happened. Oh, lots of stuff *seemed* to happen! But none of it actually mattered in the end! What was the point of so-and-so person or such-and-such thing...nothing. Just forget about them, they weren't important. I liked it a lot, but the parts I liked the most were the parts that ended up not mattering, and not the parts that the show apparently wanted me to like, if that makes sense.
No, this makes total sense.
And you are correct that this could have been told in 1 episode. Everyone I see on Twitter keeps saying there was too much plot in this season. The problem is that what is really happening is that there isn't enough story. Most of the show is window dressing. The stuff that matters is a tiny percent of the whole.
Wow, remember how the beginning of this show was about the Romulan supernova, and the failed attempt by Picard to evacuate them? And the Romulans were in diaspora, refugees that the Federation was failing to help.
And none of this mattered at all!
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 28, 2020 5:43:25 GMT -5
Spoilers for the season finale I guess: It took 10 episodes for this show to tell a story that TNG/DS9/VOY would have told in one episode, and even after 10 hours it still feels like nothing happened. Oh, lots of stuff *seemed* to happen! But none of it actually mattered in the end! What was the point of so-and-so person or such-and-such thing...nothing. Just forget about them, they weren't important. I liked it a lot, but the parts I liked the most were the parts that ended up not mattering, and not the parts that the show apparently wanted me to like, if that makes sense.
No, this makes total sense.
And you are correct that this could have been told in 1 episode. Everyone I see on Twitter keeps saying there was too much plot in this season. The problem is that what is really happening is that there isn't enough story. Most of the show is window dressing. The stuff that matters is a tiny percent of the whole.
Wow, remember how the beginning of this show was about the Romulan supernova, and the failed attempt by Picard to evacuate them? And the Romulans were in diaspora, refugees that the Federation was failing to help.
And none of this mattered at all!
Yeah the difference between plot and story is really laid bare by Picard. Plot is the go-here-do-that stuff, story is the "this is about (for example) not giving into prejudice and this is how our characters achieve that in the overarching narrative". To take another example, The Walking Dead is all plot, no story. There's no overarching theme other than survival, there's no goal except to get to the next place alive, there's nothing at all. If you like that mode of storytelling that's fine, but it's also why I gave up watching TWD seasons ago because it's just boring to have characters exist in a situation which has no purpose. TWD isn't an analogy, or a metaphor, a comment on the human condition, a warning about disease, a comment on scientific hubris or anything - it's just Rick and his gang of sweaty survivors stumbling round Georgia for an indefinite period of time. Picard seems to think it's "about" things but what it's about shifts, changes or gets dropped from episode to episode so none of it ever coheres into anything. A paean to mortality is a perfectly fine thing for Star Trek to be but it's something that needs to be genuinely woven into the season, not just Picard having a what amounts to a couple of headaches then a nice scene at the end with refried Data. I think the biggest mistake here is having the synths be genuine evil because that a) means the Romulans were right and they really were all going to die so the show justifies their appalling behaviour including being complicit in the deaths of a vast number of people and b) the takeaway message from a Star Trek show (let's just say that again. From. A. Star. Trek. Show.) is that the outsiders really are coming to destroy you and you are right to fear them. Turns out what this show is actually about is that foreigners are bad, and I don't know how much less Star Trek a message there is. The fact that Soji changed her mind one time doesn't at all remove the stink of what's essentially a fear-the-outsider screed. Desert Dweller - Yea Elfo and Rios serve no function. Although Rios has been chomping on that fucking cigar for ages but, in episode ten, he finally got to light it! I actually cheered out loud at that because he did something! Even though the something in question was lighting a cigar. I didn't mention the sonic screwdriver Our Heroes now seem to have picked up but... look, Star Trek has a history of having some convenient bit of tech to get them out of a sticky situation, and this is clearly meant to be in that line. There's whole apps that exist to randomly generate Trek bafflegab. But that was some next-level get-out-of-jail-free-ing. It's basically Dumbo's feather - we literally get "just believe and you can fly!" Once again, even Voyager would have drawn the line there. It smacks of backwards writing - the problem is we need something to generate the appearance of loads of ships, therefore here's this bit of tech that can do it, inserted slightly earlier into the episode so it doesn't look like quite as much of a fudge. The annoying thing about this (ok one of the annoying things about this) is that Rios's ship is already established as being able to sustain multiple holograms. So while Picard concentrates on flying Jurati could have been fiddling under a console or something figuring out how to use the holo-emitters to project an image of the ship outside the ship, which would mean she would have actually contributed something useful rather than staring blankly out the window or wittering on about the Picard Manoeuvre. Sigh.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 28, 2020 18:26:42 GMT -5
The annoying thing about this (ok one of the annoying things about this) is that Rios's ship is already established as being able to sustain multiple holograms. So while Picard concentrates on flying Jurati could have been fiddling under a console or something figuring out how to use the holo-emitters to project an image of the ship outside the ship, which would mean she would have actually contributed something useful rather than staring blankly out the window or wittering on about the Picard Manoeuvre. Sigh.
Oh, I kept thinking this. Now THAT would have been a way for Rios to matter in the story. If he'd actually done something extra to the ship to give it that holo-projecting ability, that could have been used to then turn outwards and project into space.
Or, hey, in the previous episode - literally one episode prior to this - they showed how Narek's ship had the ability to use the cloaking device as a holo-projector to make it look like there was more than one of his ship.
So, this series gave us TWO examples of tech that could use holo-projection to duplicate/multiply images of something. But, nope. We need the magic wand.
I wonder if "Lost" would seem like a less frustrating show after watching two seasons of DSC and one season of this?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 30, 2020 2:05:10 GMT -5
Peeps in thread, sees walls upon walls of text, peeps out(I mean it’s Trek of course there are walls and walls of text but it’s weird liking a modern Trek more than everyone else) Come back and tell us what you liked!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 9:14:55 GMT -5
Just finished it last night! I am very clearly far less critical than a lot of you here, and that's okay.
I really think most of these serialized shows benefit from binge watching. Some of the "this is taking too long, they're spinning their wheels" is remedied, for me, by "Oh well, on to the next episode!" (But yes, overall there was a lot of wasted time.)
I am definitely one of those people who loved all of the callbacks to TNG. It was my second-favorite Trek show, after DS9. (Well, seasons 1-6 of DS9.) I am impressed that they focused on the friendship between Picard and Data to the point where they redeemed part of Nemesis for me.
Yes, there were a lot of scenes and plot points that went nowhere. Most obviously, Elnor's entire storyline and Seven's reactivation of the Cube. I was legitimately EXCITED - and SCARED - to have the Borg Cube reactivated and not be sure what was going to happen...but nope, it just acted as a distraction for ten seconds before crashing, and gave Narissa a way to survive somehow to meet with Narek and then get killed by Seven. (So...she got mobbed by Borg earlier, and appeared to have transported away - I assumed that would be "onto one of the 218 Romulan ships leaving the area", but no, she just hides on the Cube again? WTF?
On the subject of Agnes - I believe it's important to note that Trek has, at least IIRC, treated unwanted Vulcan mind-melds as a pretty serious psychological crime, so for that to have happened to her, once she explained it to Picard, I think that at least partially excused her actions, at least in the context of the show. PARTIALLY though. Not completely.
The thing I liked about the entire finale (other than the two giant fleets showing up, which was a bit too cheesy), was that all THREE SIDES were shown to have flaws in their actions. The Federation fucked up by banning synthetic life, the Romulans fucked up by trying to kill it all, and the Synths fucked up by trying to kill everyone else in revenge. Picard managed (not perfectly, of course) to mediate between all three of them to resolve the situation.
Yes, the Zhat Vash was TOO evil, and letting Commodore Oh off the hook after infiltrating Starfleet for like 20 years was absurd. But in the end the Romulans' plan WAS technically understandable. And for it to have come out of a misunderstanding from a warning created FOR the synths was kind of cool, in my opinion.
I loved the entire Riker and Troi episode. Everything about it. Sirtis made me care about a son we never even saw, and cry that he was lost. Kestra did a great job helping Soji re-find her humanity. And Riker was, as always, great.
I have more thoughts, but this is a start.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 16:18:57 GMT -5
Commodore Oh was Daniel-san's girlfriend on Okinawa in Karate Kid 2!
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 31, 2020 16:38:50 GMT -5
soooo...worth checking out or ultimately a disappointment?
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Post by Hachiman on Mar 31, 2020 20:43:19 GMT -5
soooo...worth checking out or ultimately a disappointment? Tough call. It's got its high and low points and I still find it better than Discovery, but that could be damning it with faint praise. I'll say this though: for some of the issues we all have written about, I feel like the show treat's Picard's character really well and works well as a coda of sorts.
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Post by Hachiman on Mar 31, 2020 20:46:51 GMT -5
Commodore Oh was Daniel-san's girlfriend on Okinawa in Karate Kid 2! That's where I remember her from! It was starting to drive me nuts but since I couldn't recall anything I figured I had to have been remembering some small part somewhere or something less recent. I almost went to IMDB but figured it wasn't worth the time to find out she was in some random episode of some procedural show that I watched 5 years ago.
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Post by Lurky McLurk on Apr 1, 2020 4:18:50 GMT -5
I didn't binge watch it, but also quite enjoyed it. Earlier part of the season was better, what with the Romulan Murder Housekeepers, the old man contemplating his failures and regrets, and the general sense of coming out punching for liberal, humanitarian values at a time when they're under threat. (And we were spared Disco S1's wokeish moral confusion. I'm supposed to feel sympathetic to the Klingons that their violent, feudalistic way of life is under threat from the Federation's cultural hegemony am I? Fuck off.) Beginning of Ep 5 was pretty gross, but having seen that episode of Farscape it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. And it probably helps that I haven't watched more than a handful of Voyager episodes so have no emotional investment in Icheb. Some of the performances were pretty good, especially Pill and Treadaway. And there were other things I liked, such as the emergency holograms, and how the baddies had a pretty sensible motivation for once.
Second half of the season, as it turned away from something potentially meaningful about the displacement and abandonment of refugees in favour of a Mass Effect do-over, was a reasonably entertaining way to spend a few hours, but emotionally uninvolving. How uninvolving? Well, six months ago I did the same bit of The Tempest as a reading at my mum's funeral* so you might have thought that would have gotten a reaction from me, but no, I just sat there thinking how it must get used at funerals all the time, like Paul's Letter to the Corinthians and that bit from Captain Corelli's Mandolin do at weddings. Earlier on in the season I thought I was being quite clever comparing it with Mass Effect, with the similar visual effects and background music, and the plot which appeared to be "let's get a team together for a suicide mission on a Borg cube." But by the end I was kind of amazed at just how much stuff they lifted (with such radical alterations as changing the beacon that turns out to be a warning into... a warning that turns out to be a beacon). Having said that, Mass Effect borrows liberally from other sources, so it's the CIIIIRCLE OF LI-I-IIFE.
Other things that didn't help it: I really don't like "it's ok, we have a spare" as a trope, and it got used twice, bookmarking the whole season. The whole thing with Picard having a terminal illness was a terrible idea. The plot is full of holes, "wut?" and "whytho?" moments and just generally has poor narrative economy (e.g. a Chekhov's Borg Cube that doesn't go off). There's a thing about the pacing and presentation that I can't really articulate in terms of TV so I'll have to do it in an extremely technical music theory analogy instead: you're supposed to have loud bits and quiet bits, right, but this just has, like, pretty much the same volume all the way through. I think this is Chabon's first time showrunning and, well, the inexperience shows. Generally (and I'm so sorry about this, please forgive me) I find myself comparing it to how I imagine Whedon would have done the same thing. No, I'm not saying there should have been more banter. I just mean that it's lacking the kind of character interaction, story structure and foreshadowing-to-payoff that Whedon's so good at. (Look, I said I'm sorry already).
*(I started at "our revels", just in case you think I did some weird two-line funeral reading)
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Post by Lurky McLurk on Apr 1, 2020 4:25:27 GMT -5
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