Post by chalkdevil π on Dec 18, 2017 11:19:57 GMT -5
Alright, jumping in with some scattered thoughts (this is what I get for having a busy weekend after seeing the movie on Thursday night).
Anyway, I loved this movie. I loved the focus on the new characters and subverting a lot of the expectations (Snoke's backstory mattering, Rey's parents, Kylo just offing Snoke in a coup). I agree with the issues a lot of other's had with the length, the dragging Canto Bight section, the ridiculous conceit that tried to explain the 18 hour spaceship chase, but overall I was totally won over.
Random points:
Why is no one talking about Luke milking a space walrus's teat? I demand to know the backstory of that space walrus!
Goofy puppet Yoda is the best Yoda. I knew the prequels ruined Yoda by making him CGI, but I hadn't really thought about how terrible it was that he was a serious Jedi general who doesn't steal anyones lunch.
Porgs. Not as annoying as expected but I thought the CGI stood out too much against the natural backdrop and the practical effects of the caretakers.
Canto Bight gripes:
It felt like Benicio was the code breaker they were looking for but they cut some sort of explanation where he lost his flower pin to Justin Theroux gambling.
The space horse stampede felt super prequel-y.
I wanted this whole section cut, but they intertwined it too much with the ending. And I get that they were doing some interesting things with slavery in the empire or republic or whatever the hell the galaxy is supposed to be now, as well as saying things about war profiteering, and pointing out people funding both sides of a war to stoke profits. I dunno, it touched on this stuff but that is a heady damn subject to just spend 10 seconds on with no real pay-off. It was like the stuff with Cassian in Rogue One. He did some amoral things in the name of something he thought was right, but felt bad about that sort of. I dunno, maybe a PG-13 Star Wars movie is a difficult place to talk deeply about moral ambiguity in a time of war.
Leia using the force. Yeah, I was okay with this. Frankly, I was probably more distracted by thinking the whole time this was how they decided to get around Carrie Fischer's death by taking her out of the film real early, but then they just kept holding on her face and hands whilst she floated in space. So, uh, I guess they're going another way to finish Leia's story line. Also, and I don't want to specifically call out anyone here, but I think a lot of the objections to this feel like the same "Girls can't use the force!" objections that dudes use for Rey. I mean, Kylo is stopping lasers, Snoke is mind-melding two people across a galaxy with apparently little effort, Luke is projecting himself across the galaxy and it maybe kills him (I know this one is actually getting objections, so, uh, I guess that totally invalidates all of my points). Anyway, Leia has always been force sensitive. Mostly this has just been shown by having her stare sadly into the middle distance whenever someone died on the other side of the galaxy, but, you know, it's there and presumable she's had 30 years to figure out some more force shit.
The killing of the "Legends." I'm into it. I thought this was a nice theme for the film. The old generation passes, and a new one has to take up the fight. I thought it work both as the text of the film and as a subtext to the fans.
Yeah, I need to see this again. I'm still sorting through my thoughts about it. For episode IX, I like the idea of a time jump. It gives Rey a chance to power up. Maybe have some new Jedi students to help fight Kylo. Finn could have taken a leadership role in the resistance with Poe and Rose. Maybe there's a baby Finn. It gives the opportunity to write out Carrie Fischer. She could have died in the time jump, but then have a scene where the characters are sad about that to, you know, honor Leia but without having to do some shitty CGI puppet or try to use outtakes from the previous films. My big concern now is with JJ taking over again that the whole thing ends with another attack on a giant god-damned Death Star where Rey learns that Obi Wan is her dad/grandpa even though that would have no significance to her at all because why the hell would she know about Obi Wan. No, it's gonna be cool. Someone will talk him out of that.
In conclusion, Star Wars in a film of contrast. Thank you.
Uh, updated rankings:
Empire Strikes Back Last Jedi New Hope The Force Awakens Return of the Jedi Rogue One Revenge of the Sith Phantom Menace Attack of the Clones
Why is no one talking about Luke milking a space walrus's teat? I demand to know the backstory of that space walrus!
My favorite thing about this was Luke's face during the entire sequence. "Yup, this is really happening. I'm drinking space walrus milk right out of the tit. Deal with it."
Why is no one talking about Luke milking a space walrus's teat? I demand to know the backstory of that space walrus!
My favorite thing about this was Luke's face during the entire sequence. "Yup, this is really happening. I'm drinking space walrus milk right out of the tit. Deal with it."
I don't get people criticizing the hyperspace jump that Admiral Holdo did. They keep saying why didn't she do that sooner. It is clearly because she is acting as a decoy so that the transports can get away without being noticed. It isn't until they start getting fired on that she can pull that move off. Hell, Hux clearly says to ignore the ship because it is empty! If she would have tried doing that before the transports started getting shot at then she would have been blown away.
Like seriously, this isn't a hard movie to understand.
I don't get people criticizing the hyperspace jump that Admiral Holdo did. They keep saying why didn't she do that sooner. It is clearly because she is acting as a decoy so that the transports can get away without being noticed. It isn't until they start getting fired on that she can pull that move off. Hell, Hux clearly says to ignore the ship because it is empty! If she would have tried doing that before the transports started getting shot at then she would have been blown away.
Like seriously, this isn't a hard movie to understand.
I've also seen people be like, "If that was something they could do, why didn't they just do it all the time?" apparently oblivious to the fact that these are poorly funded rebels who probably don't want to smash flagships into enemy vessels regularly.
I don't get people criticizing the hyperspace jump that Admiral Holdo did. They keep saying why didn't she do that sooner. It is clearly because she is acting as a decoy so that the transports can get away without being noticed. It isn't until they start getting fired on that she can pull that move off. Hell, Hux clearly says to ignore the ship because it is empty! If she would have tried doing that before the transports started getting shot at then she would have been blown away.
Like seriously, this isn't a hard movie to understand.
I've also seen people be like, "If that was something they could do, why didn't they just do it all the time?" apparently oblivious to the fact that these are poorly funded rebels who probably don't want to smash flagships into enemy vessels regularly.
I don't get people criticizing the hyperspace jump that Admiral Holdo did. They keep saying why didn't she do that sooner. It is clearly because she is acting as a decoy so that the transports can get away without being noticed. It isn't until they start getting fired on that she can pull that move off. Hell, Hux clearly says to ignore the ship because it is empty! If she would have tried doing that before the transports started getting shot at then she would have been blown away.
Like seriously, this isn't a hard movie to understand.
My bigger problem is - as always - relating to speed and distance of travel in space. If the plan the entire time was to evacuate everyone to a nearby planet, and their ships are FASTER than the Star Destroyer, AND the transports are cloaked..... why not do this way earlier? They only got caught because Benicio Del Toro's character knew what they were doing. Related: What was that ship Finn and Rose used to leave? Do they have other ships they could have used to evacuate people with?
This all contributes to making me even more confused as to why Laura Dern's character didn't even make an attempt to figure out how to disable the First Order tracking.
I'm also slightly confused as to why they thought help would show up within 10 minutes of sending out a distress call. Doesn't it take hours/days to get from the Outer Rim into the center of the galaxy? See: Episode IV, V, I and II at least. I mean, I know JJ Abrams horribly abused this in Episode VII, but you don't have to let that stand.
I don't get people criticizing the hyperspace jump that Admiral Holdo did. They keep saying why didn't she do that sooner. It is clearly because she is acting as a decoy so that the transports can get away without being noticed. It isn't until they start getting fired on that she can pull that move off. Hell, Hux clearly says to ignore the ship because it is empty! If she would have tried doing that before the transports started getting shot at then she would have been blown away.
Like seriously, this isn't a hard movie to understand.
My bigger problem is - as always - relating to speed and distance of travel in space. If the plan the entire time was to evacuate everyone to a nearby planet, and their ships are FASTER than the Star Destroyer, AND the transports are cloaked..... why not do this way earlier? They only got caught because Benicio Del Toro's character knew what they were doing. Related: What was that ship Finn and Rose used to leave? Do they have other ships they could have used to evacuate people with?
This all contributes to making me even more confused as to why Laura Dern's character didn't even make an attempt to figure out how to disable the First Order tracking.
I'm also slightly confused as to why they thought help would show up within 10 minutes of sending out a distress call. Doesn't it take hours/days to get from the Outer Rim into the center of the galaxy? See: Episode IV, V, I and II at least. I mean, I know JJ Abrams horribly abused this in Episode VII, but you don't have to let that stand.
Wasn't the stuff with reinforcements from the Outer Rim all before Finn told them what that cannon could do and the main thrust wasn't that people didn't arrive but that people had gotten the message and just ignored it? Truly a modern problem for our modern smart phone age...
My bigger problem is - as always - relating to speed and distance of travel in space. If the plan the entire time was to evacuate everyone to a nearby planet, and their ships are FASTER than the Star Destroyer, AND the transports are cloaked..... why not do this way earlier? They only got caught because Benicio Del Toro's character knew what they were doing. Related: What was that ship Finn and Rose used to leave? Do they have other ships they could have used to evacuate people with?
This all contributes to making me even more confused as to why Laura Dern's character didn't even make an attempt to figure out how to disable the First Order tracking.
I'm also slightly confused as to why they thought help would show up within 10 minutes of sending out a distress call. Doesn't it take hours/days to get from the Outer Rim into the center of the galaxy? See: Episode IV, V, I and II at least. I mean, I know JJ Abrams horribly abused this in Episode VII, but you don't have to let that stand.
Wasn't the stuff with reinforcements from the Outer Rim all before Finn told them what that cannon could do and the main thrust wasn't that people didn't arrive but that people had gotten the message and just ignored it? Truly a modern problem for our modern smart phone age...
But they knew people had ignored it because no one arrived. But, logically, pretty much no one could have arrived in that time. It's about, what, 20 minutes of time, total?
Wasn't the stuff with reinforcements from the Outer Rim all before Finn told them what that cannon could do and the main thrust wasn't that people didn't arrive but that people had gotten the message and just ignored it? Truly a modern problem for our modern smart phone age...
But they knew people had ignored it because no one arrived. But, logically, pretty much no one could have arrived in that time. It's about, what, 20 minutes of time, total?
There was a line where Carrie Fisher's daughter was at some kind of terminal and said that the messages had been received by multiple parties but no one had sent any reply.
But they knew people had ignored it because no one arrived. But, logically, pretty much no one could have arrived in that time. It's about, what, 20 minutes of time, total?
There was a line where Carrie Fisher's daughter was at some kind of terminal and said that the messages had been received by multiple parties but no one had sent any reply.
They aren't asking for a reply. It isn't even established if they can receive messages. They are asking for people to come help. They repeat several times "No one is coming". "They aren't coming". They keep talking about sending this distress signal even after the door has been blown off. Regardless, with the First Order camped outside, no one could get there fast enough.
Unless you use JJ Abrams time, where anyone can get anywhere instantly.
I know the film wanted to make the point that people were ignoring them. But logistically that point isn't made since they don't say if they can receive signals and only comment that people haven't arrived. From the Outer Rim, which takes possibly days to get to, depending on where this planet is.
Edited to add: I'm saying this is a speed/distance of space travel error made by Rian Johnson. Realistically, no one could have shown up in time. I don't like the way Episodes VII and VIII seem to treat space travel as if you can get anywhere instantly. It was worse in Episode VII, but this is the stuff that bothered me in Episode VIII.
The only way they could have made this point and had it make sense to me is if no help arrived *WITHOUT* the First Order camped outside, attempting to break down the door. But saying, "Aw, no. People didn't arrive instantly after we asked them. They are ignoring us." doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.
Last Edit: Dec 19, 2017 1:40:39 GMT -5 by Desert Dweller
I don't get people criticizing the hyperspace jump that Admiral Holdo did. They keep saying why didn't she do that sooner. It is clearly because she is acting as a decoy so that the transports can get away without being noticed. It isn't until they start getting fired on that she can pull that move off. Hell, Hux clearly says to ignore the ship because it is empty! If she would have tried doing that before the transports started getting shot at then she would have been blown away.
Like seriously, this isn't a hard movie to understand.
My bigger problem is - as always - relating to speed and distance of travel in space. If the plan the entire time was to evacuate everyone to a nearby planet, and their ships are FASTER than the Star Destroyer, AND the transports are cloaked..... why not do this way earlier?
This was addressed on-screen - they were transferring the fuel from the Raddus to the transports, and only launched when the transports were all fueled up.
Post by *Deep, Pained Sigh* on Dec 19, 2017 7:50:20 GMT -5
Predictions:
No one came from the Outer Rim because they are fighting a new threat and Rian John son's trilogy will be about this new Star War.
Episode 9 will start several years after Hux has deposed Kylo Ren and it will be a revenge story with the nascent Rebellion relegated to mitigating the damage from the civil war. Rey will become a Knight of Ren and she becomes the first force adept to obtain true balance.
Embrace using Bing to cheat at Framed.
Embrace using your phone to rule out Wordle coin flips.
Assorted thoughts: -Was surprised at how big of a role the Rose girl had, I had no idea she was going to be a character or who the actress was.
EDIT: I forgot to mention the most obvious flaw which is that it's too long obviously. But I can live with it.
I didn't know where I'd seen Rose before, but IMDB says she was on Comedy Bang Bang, and then I remembered.
Also, it didn't feel like 2.5 hours, but I have a terrible cold and was kinda out of it. If I hadn't already bought my tickets, I probably would have waited a few more days to see it.
I think you need a 3D map to plot out all the shipping that can be done from this movie and Awakens. Finn is into Rey, Rose, and Poe Rey is into Finn and Ben Rose loves Finn, or at least the idea of him Poe has a thing for BB-8 and possibly Leia Ben doesn't know what he wants
STAR WARS EPISODE XXX: EVERYBODY FUCKS
Ben and Hux just ooze UST. IX will end with them banging while their latest Death Star explodes around them.
My bigger problem is - as always - relating to speed and distance of travel in space. If the plan the entire time was to evacuate everyone to a nearby planet, and their ships are FASTER than the Star Destroyer, AND the transports are cloaked..... why not do this way earlier?
This was addressed on-screen - they were transferring the fuel from the Raddus to the transports, and only launched when the transports were all fueled up.
I'll definitely see this again, and, as mentioned, was pretty cottonheaded when I saw it on Sunday, but:
1) Leia force moving herself back to the ship didn't quite work for me just because it seemed too weightless, for lack of a better word. I guess she was frozen solid, and there was no atmosphere to cause things to ripple, but it seemed too ...effortless? I'm down with Leia having untapped / unseen force potential, but the execution felt too easy.
2) It was always kinda there in the old EU stuff, but I like how Rogue One and TLJ are 're-doing' the Force. The Jedi and Sith are force religions, but they aren't 'The Force'. Maybe the whole light side / dark side stuff is self-limiting nonsense, and the hairshirt ethos of the Jedi is what causes the heavy snapback when they 'fall' to the dark side. It seems that most people's experience with The Force would be closer to Imwe's - less ritualistic and more spiritual.
Maybe bringing balance to the force means letting go of the dichotomy and getting in touch with the flow of it. It was great that Rey wasn't afraid to jump into the 'dark side' pit - she didn't get out her lightsaber, like Luke in the Dagobah cave. Just jumped in and asked it what it was going to teach her.
3) I won't be surprised if there's more to Rey's parents, but I'm glad they didn't worry too much about them, or Snoke or anyone else. It's like a 'cut-to-the-punchline' version of 'The Rule Of Threes'. The first movie set up all the nostalagia notes, the second crumpled them up and said 'we need to move past this'. Episode IX has never felt more open to possibility.
This was addressed on-screen - they were transferring the fuel from the Raddus to the transports, and only launched when the transports were all fueled up.
This took them over 12 hours to do?
So, I feel kind of stupid trying to defend a plot hole with things that aren't necessarily supported by the text of the film itself, but, uh, my guess is that the transports would have limited range so they would want to wait until the last moment until launching them so they as close to the planet as possible. But, that's really just a guess since I don't think it was specifically addressed in the movie.
But really, if you examine the "chase" with any sort of scrutiny and it falls apart. Like why couldn't the First Order send out TIE fighters to take out the ships? Seriously, why again are they in a slow chase to begin with? All the ships can only go the exact same max speed? The F.O. didn't want to just send out one of their dozens of ships at light speed to go ahead and cut them off? Is there a minimum distance they can do a light speed jump? Shit, why didn't the Resistance lightspeed-kamikaze one of the other two ships earlier? Why didn't Admiral Hodor not kamikaze her ship right when the transports started blowing up? Why did the F.O. just blow them up one at a time? Do they only have one gun on their dozens of ships?
Still, I loved the hell out of this movie. Apparently, I am totally willing to forgive terrible plot holes if I really like the work being done with the characters.
Also, when Laura Dern blew up Snoke's ship (also some really beautiful shots there), in the silence afterwards some guy a few rows down from me, after a beat, said "oh, man". Quietly, but the whole theatre could hear it.
Ha! Tonight when I saw it, some guy said "damn" real quietly in a very small voice in that silence. Everyone laughed and afterward, he said "oops" in a small voice.
Also, when Laura Dern blew up Snoke's ship (also some really beautiful shots there), in the silence afterwards some guy a few rows down from me, after a beat, said "oh, man". Quietly, but the whole theatre could hear it.
Ha! Tonight when I saw it, some guy said "damn" real quietly in a very small voice in that silence. Everyone laughed and afterward, he said "oops" in a small voice.
The theatre noise during my viewing of the scene was a kid saying he needed to go to the bathroom.
"[Stuber] makes a strong case for future collaborations between Kumail Nanjiani and Dave Bautista" - Rotten Tomatoes
Post by liebkartoffel on Dec 20, 2017 0:19:55 GMT -5
Just got back from seeing it and still processing.
Things I disliked:
Too long, too shaggy, and it feels like Johnson was so intent on subverting Star Wars tropes--which is good!--that sometimes it got in the way of a cohesive plot--which is...less good. E.g., I actually enjoyed the casino planet scenes at the time, but significantly less so now that I realize that Finn and Rose's entire adventure was pointless. Too much of a sense that we're just being shuttled from point A to B without knowing where we're building to.
I also...and this isn't really a criticism so much as a personal reaction...I also felt pretty melancholy at where the previous trilogy's Big Trio ended up. Everything the Rebellion accomplished was wiped away, and it seems like Han, Leia, and Luke all led pretty miserable lives after ROTJ. And I get that you need conflict, and Johnson was practically grabbing us by the lapels and telling us to LET GO, but...I liked those characters, I had a lot of affection for them, and it made me sad to see them ultimately accomplish so little, in the grand scheme of things. Like, Luke basically saved the day for (what was left of) the rebels, and that was great, but I would have liked to see him have more of an impact on the titular Last Jedi, who remains kind of irritatingly Mary Sue-ish. I would have liked to see him impart just one actual lesson rather than grouse at Rey and yell at her to go away. Yoda even gives that beautiful little speech about needing to teach what you learn from failure, and about how they lost Ren, but they can't lose Rey, and then...Luke doesn't ever have another opportunity to teach her. But hey, Force Ghosts are a thing, so maybe he'll be around to offer some advice in Episode IX.
Things I liked:
Absolutely gorgeous visuals. Probably the most beautiful Star Wars movie to date, and Johnson is fantastic at making this feel like a lived-in world rather than just the backdrop for space battles. Really, all sorts of little details and scenes--like the aftermath of Laura Dern's kamikaze attack with all the black and blue, or the brawl in Snoke's "throne" room with the scarlet backdrop, and on the salt planet where the ships "bleed" little plumes of red dust. (Not difficult to get Johnson's point about the irony of living in universe where the body count is horrifically high, but no one ever seems to shed any blood.)
Rose. Rose is great. More Rose. More schmoes doing extraordinary things rather than demigods doing extraordinary things.
Mark Hamill's performance as Old Grumpy Luke Skywalker. Easily surpasses Harrison Ford's Grumpy Old Han Solo, which was really just Harrison Ford not giving a shit. The little moment where Luke winked at C-3PO was just perfect. Again, I really hope Hamill continues to have a role as in Episode IX.
All in all, I enjoyed it, if not quite as much as I was expecting to enjoy it, given the rave reviews. (Including a B+ from Dowd...a B+!). There are certainly flaws; the plot meanders too much and I think the run time could have been shaved significantly. But even if the pacing sags in places, Johnson nails individual scenes and moments.
Last Edit: Dec 20, 2017 8:34:36 GMT -5 by liebkartoffel
But really, if you examine the "chase" with any sort of scrutiny and it falls apart. Like why couldn't the First Order send out TIE fighters to take out the ships? Seriously, why again are they in a slow chase to begin with? All the ships can only go the exact same max speed? The F.O. didn't want to just send out one of their dozens of ships at light speed to go ahead and cut them off? Is there a minimum distance they can do a light speed jump? Shit, why didn't the Resistance lightspeed-kamikaze one of the other two ships earlier? Why didn't Admiral Hodor not kamikaze her ship right when the transports started blowing up? Why did the F.O. just blow them up one at a time? Do they only have one gun on their dozens of ships?
These are mostly true points, and you can probably wring some twisted logic to explain them away. But really what it comes down to is that the logic of technology and space travel in these movies never really made any sense. I guess the structure of this movie brought that nonsense more to the forefront than the others, but in the end you just kinda gotta take what they're giving you at face value.
But really, if you examine the "chase" with any sort of scrutiny and it falls apart. Like why couldn't the First Order send out TIE fighters to take out the ships? Seriously, why again are they in a slow chase to begin with? All the ships can only go the exact same max speed? The F.O. didn't want to just send out one of their dozens of ships at light speed to go ahead and cut them off? Is there a minimum distance they can do a light speed jump? Shit, why didn't the Resistance lightspeed-kamikaze one of the other two ships earlier? Why didn't Admiral Hodor not kamikaze her ship right when the transports started blowing up? Why did the F.O. just blow them up one at a time? Do they only have one gun on their dozens of ships?
These are mostly true points, and you can probably wring some twisted logic to explain them away. But really what it comes down to is that the logic of technology and space travel in these movies never really made any sense. I guess the structure of this movie brought that nonsense more to the forefront than the others, but in the end you just kinda gotta take what they're giving you at face value.
I mean, I was going to say that they didn't want to risk committing TIEs when the Rebels had their own starfighters and they knew they were going to catch up anyway, but I'm pretty sure Ren took all their X-Wings out, so...yeah.
Post by Lone Locust of the Apocalypse on Dec 20, 2017 9:26:57 GMT -5
I'm amazed that people are upset over Admiral Ackbar's fate. I didn't know it was him, thought it was just some fish dude.
Also, for all the movie's flaws, Luke's death is certainly not one of them. He astrally projected himself across star systems to save his friends and then denied Kylo Ren the chance to kill him. That's a badass way to go.