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Post by sarapen on Mar 27, 2016 16:22:17 GMT -5
If you think about it, for an officially pacifist organization the Federation keeps getting involved in massive interstellar wars. My own interpretation is that Starfleet is the Federation military, it's just that everyone involved is ideologically uncomfortable with calling it that. Maybe that's why Starfleet put families on Galaxy-class starships, so they could pretend that they weren't heavily-armed warships that could depopulate an entire planet from orbit.
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Post by sarapen on Mar 27, 2016 16:37:03 GMT -5
When viewers were polled about the show, Bajor plotlines ranked dead last, which is a reason the show shifts away from them as it goes on. Originally, Deep Space Nine was going to be a Federation outpost literally on Bajor, but it was felt that was moving away a little too much from the space-based orientation of the Star Trek franchise. I can understand that, I was usually bored whenever there was a Bajor episode. There's just something unsexy about reconstruction and community reconciliation. Although I should point out that the Yugoslav Wars were taking place when DS9 was on and it's clear that the writers were inspired at least in part by that conflict, what with the genocide, the religious clashes, and the messy politics. If you look at previous Star Treks as a sci-fi affirmation of the UN system's internationalism, then DS9 would be a depiction of that system under pressure. If you were a news junkie like me then at times the 90s felt like the failure of one UN peacekeeping mission after another - Somalia, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, et al. Which is unfair, of course, since successful peacekeeping missions don't make the news, but that was the zeitgeist of the international section in the newspaper.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 27, 2016 19:54:59 GMT -5
I mean that world is fascinating in its own right, with potential for interesting storylines that focus on more than religion. For example, I found baffling their decision not to join the Federation, even if The Emissary was the one to suggest it. It's just daft to refuse membership to the Federation, which I presume comes with some perks, with aid after decades of war, when the first thing the Dominion ships will do when they come through that wormhole is to blow your world to pieces. I understand they are a spiritual people, but a little pragmatism wouldn't hurt. Well, I'd say something, but perhaps best I just say keep watching. Sanziana If you're on to Season 6, this means you've seen "Call to Arms", correct? If so, you can see how Bajor being members of the Federation would have been very bad for them.
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Post by Sanziana on Mar 28, 2016 12:17:31 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I hadn't seen Call to Arms when I posted that comment, but now I have and I see it would've been very bad for them. I forgot those gods of theirs are actually aliens who know the future. Call to Arms was such a spectacular episode! Douay-Rheims-Challoner Well, I liked the Bajor episodes, unsexy as they were, but I can see how they wouldn't have been very popular. Kai Winn was a great character, so subtly evil, and that condescending "child" she uttered at all times was just delicious.
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 2, 2016 12:42:29 GMT -5
Okay, FINE, you sentimental, mawkish show, I'll embrace the Kira/Odo romance, even though those guys have even less chemistry than Jadzia and the stiff-necked, possessive jackass. That Fever moment was quite something. Speaking of Jadzia, she grows on you, doesn't she? Even if the character doesn't seem to have another trait than fun-loving which appeared out of thin air from season 4 or thereabouts. It's a pity the show never knew what to do with this character, and maybe it's just me, but this whole Trill business seems so confused, and sometimes even contradictory. I spoiled myself so I know she dies at the end of season 6, so I'm curious to see how the new Trill will be handled.
The first episodes of this season were superb, with one quibble: that deus ex machina device where the wormhole aliens eat up the Dominion Fleet; I really hope they will explain those guys in a satisfactory fashion. Gul Dukat going mad was stretching it a bit, but it did lead to that great episode, "Waltz", where both of the actors went for it and it was gloriously insane (Avery Brooks has a way of overpronouncing words that sells absolutely every line). But the highlights of this season for me were Inquisition and In The Pale Moonlight, where the Federation gets thrown with its nose in the mud, and man, does it feel nice to see acknowledged that the Federation is not spotless, and humans haven't mastered their nastier sides quite yet. I think the scenes where Sisko provides commentary while staring at the camera in In The Pale Moonlight weren't necessary, they should've just let it flow smoothly, but other that that it was a beautifully crafted episode. I've read that people hated it because they felt it betrayed Gene Roddenberry's vision of Trek, but I think it actually enriches it. It shows that the Federation is not perfect, it has to fight to maintain its morality, and keep its principles, and that just makes this whole show more poignant and engrossing.
I quite enjoyed The Reckoning too, but every time I hear "the Sisko" I can't stop myself from laughing.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Apr 2, 2016 22:55:49 GMT -5
Aw, did you stop at "The Reckoning"? We were surely all looking forward to your thoughts on "Profit and Lace".
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 3, 2016 10:40:09 GMT -5
Aw, did you stop at "The Reckoning"? We were surely all looking forward to your thoughts on "Profit and Lace". I watched the first 10 minutes of Profit and Lace and went "nope, I'm not doing this to myself" and saw the next one.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 4, 2016 8:12:22 GMT -5
Sanziana When I mentioned there are key recurring characters who don't appear until season six, I was thinking of Admiral Ross (who finally becomes the show's go-to Admiral after a half-dozen interchangeable predecessors) and, of course, Sloan. I was never that wild about Kira/Odo; I liked that more when Odo was pining for her.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Apr 7, 2016 0:20:27 GMT -5
Yeah, Kira/Odo was just kind of okay for me. I never really cared a lot about it. I'm not sure I ever bought that Kira would be attracted to him. But, the story worked well enough. The only time I had a big problem with it was when they made up so quickly off screen in the wedding episode.
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 7, 2016 12:34:01 GMT -5
I absolutely love Ezri! Especially how she talks a lot of nonsense when she's nervous, but I'm being very subjective because she's been given some very bad episodes. I've only watched 10 episodes from season 7, they ran out of steam here at the end, but I'm sure it'll go out with a bang.
I'm kind of melancholy now, because I'm nearly done with all amazing Trek, aren't I? Come on Bryan Fuller bring some new life into this universe, it's such a great one! If anyone can do it, it's him.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 7, 2016 12:51:15 GMT -5
Sanziana Well, there are some excellent episodes in the other two shows (particularly Voyager, IMHO) but, ah, yes. Ezri Dax's a character I really love, and it's interesting to me in some ways she's better fleshed out than Jadzia was - for example, we actually get a sense of what Ezri's pre-symbiosis life was like, whereas we never learned anything about Jadiza before she became Jadzia Dax (including her original surname, unlike Ezri Tigan and her family.)
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 8, 2016 11:22:24 GMT -5
Douay-Rheims-Challoner Exactly, she seems more fleshed out compared to Jadzia, and I also like the way she is confused about her identity and the previous hosts. The counselor part though I could do without. A pity she only has one season. You have to give me a list of episodes to watch from Enterprise; I already have the one for Voyager. Apparently I'm not stopping until I have all this Star Trek business finished.
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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Apr 8, 2016 13:59:06 GMT -5
I remember everyone being devastated by Jadzia when she died, but when I first rewatched on DVD it was less of a blow. Jadzia’s sense of humor is great on weekly doses, but very shtick-y when you’re watching multiple episodes in a row (Sisko’s “This is no time for jokes, old man” in “The Ship” almost brought a cheer from me), and I have to admit my first rewatch brought a new appreciation for early Jadzia, too—she was so cool when the character was hinging from the early “female Spock” side to the more “fun-loving hedonist” one. Curzon took over, I guess (though I’d love to eventually see the Young Sisko & Curzon Adventures in some form). And I don’t have any problem with Terry Farrell, either—I think she gets slagged on a bit by the fans, but while she’s not Claire Bloom she was a great fit for the role and seemed to have a blast in interviews (self-described “action Barbie”), and considering the typical Hollywood shelf life I find it harder to fault her with going for a higher-paying gig (she’s mostly retired now except from some local theater in PA, last I heard).
That said, I was the only person who liked Ezri when she arrived and I find it gratifying that she’s found a following since then. I feel like her quirks and neuroses, like a lot of DS9, were kind of a better fit for the following decade than late nineties syndicated action-adventure TV.
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Post by Lady Bones on Apr 8, 2016 18:28:27 GMT -5
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 8, 2016 18:33:02 GMT -5
That said, I was the only person who liked Ezri when she arrived and I find it gratifying that she’s found a following since then. I feel like her quirks and neuroses, like a lot of DS9, were kind of a better fit for the following decade than late nineties syndicated action-adventure TV. Well, I remember bonding with someone because he wrote his fan fiction series about the continuing adventures of her mirror universe counterpart (as opposed to my own barely intelligible dawdling about a Cardassian Gul commanding his order during the period O'Brien had that ugly business on Setlik III) but, yeah, a lot of people didn't care for Ezri. This said, I've never been a huge fan of the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes, but it'll be interesting to revisit them (and the Enterprise Mirror Universe two-parter, which would be on my list of Enterprise episodes, anyway, Sanziana, but in part because there's few episodes of any show that just straight up feel like the sort of fan fiction I read and wrote far too much of.)
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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Apr 8, 2016 18:57:39 GMT -5
Mirror Ezri must have spawned all new subgenres of fanfic.
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 13, 2016 12:31:44 GMT -5
Of course Odo had to go join the bloody Great Link. It was the natural conclusion to his storyline (one of the best of the show, imo), they really stressed it at the end that he will never fit in with the solids, but it was so bittersweet. I would've liked to see him stick it out with the humanoids and their fragile, confused, limited connections though. What's so great about knowing/feeling everything all at once, anyway?
The Dominion War ended in a satisfactory fashion, with the Founder (she was so scary) taking responsibility for her whole people, redeeming her a bit in my eyes, the Cardassians learning some humility and Sloan getting outwitted by Bashir. Extreme Measures was an interesting episode; for all of Bashir's moral posturing, he has no qualms going in a dying man's head and poking around. Apparently when confronted with something important to him, he has no hesitation putting into practice the "end justifies the means" adage he was debating with Sloan in earlier episodes. I quite liked this episode, there were some absurd, surreal touches to it.
Nana Visitor started out overacting all over the place, but ended as the rock of this show; she always knocked it out of the park. Her final scene, sitting in Sisko's chair, felt so natural, she should've been given that a lot sooner. Which gets me to that unfortunate business where Gul Dukat and Sisko take a trip to Mordor. I liked Bajor when it was about political intrigue, less when the Pah-Wraiths came into the picture (they were fun as a minor plotline) and I found the way the aliens in the wormhole and The Emissary were handled very disappointing. Gul Dukat was wasted (he could've been given Damar's role, I didn't really care about that guy) and also Kai Winn.
All in all, I think DS9 is the best Star Trek show, it's more focused, complex in its themes, better written and has better character development for all its ensemble than the other ones. But I'll find myself rewatching TNG more, I'm sure, it has that innocence, optimism and sense of adventure, it has Patrick Stewart being the most awesome captain Starfleet will ever have and Data, the heart of this whole Star Trek universe.
I'm really glad I decided to get into this whole Star Trek thing.
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 13, 2016 12:37:13 GMT -5
Oh, I also rewatched the reboot to see how it all fits because I am that kind of person, and I still like those movies a great deal. They took the in your face approach, especially when it came to Spock, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. As long as the new show will cover the more talky, serious aspects of Trek I'm happy with the movies being sci-fi actioners. What can I say, I like watching on big screens spaceships getting blown up and silly phaser shoot-outs.
On to Voyager.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Apr 13, 2016 13:02:01 GMT -5
Don't do it! You have so much to live for!
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Post by rimjobflashmob on Apr 13, 2016 15:00:37 GMT -5
Don't do it! You have so much to live for! I recently ran through Voyager the first time, and Kazon and Neelix aside it's actually pretty damn good. There's a lot to nitpick but as long as you go in with the knowledge that it's not going to be anywhere near as dark, serialized, and edgy as DS9, it's a very entertaining, light adventure show. The only major complaints I have with VOY besides the aforementioned misfires are the misuse of certain members of the ensemble and the complete neutering of the Borg. The latter was probably inevitable though.
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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Apr 13, 2016 15:02:00 GMT -5
he could've been given Damar's role, I didn't really care about that guy Aww, Damar’s growth is one of the best things about the last two seasons for me. For VOY watch along with (or screen by) Prole’s reviews. The show’s better than its reputation, but it takes a while to get moving and is generally more conservative in terms of format. It might be a good idea to wait a couple weeks after DS9, too.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Apr 13, 2016 15:03:10 GMT -5
Don't do it! You have so much to live for! I recently ran through Voyager the first time, and Kazon and Neelix aside it's actually pretty damn good. There's a lot to nitpick but as long as you go in with the knowledge that it's not going to be anywhere near as dark, serialized, and edgy as DS9, it's a very entertaining, light adventure show. The only major complaints I have with VOY besides the aforementioned misfires are the misuse of certain members of the ensemble and the complete neutering of the Borg. The latter was probably inevitable though. I watched it when it first aired and gave up mid-second season. The show was making me actually angry over how stupid the writing was, and, for my own mental health, I just had to give it up.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 13, 2016 17:30:45 GMT -5
Ben Grimm Season two is a low point for the series. It's best seasons as I recall - though been years - were seasons four and five. Sanziana I appreciated the kind of punkish twist to the familiar aspects in the Abrams films - Spock's origin story in the first film comes to mind. It closely follows what we know from "Journey to Babel" and the animated "Yesteryear" - being picked on by kids, struggling with his Vulcan identity, the choices of a path in the Vulcan Science Academy or Starfleet (though Sarek is more considerate this go around.) But then when he rejects the Vulcan Science Academy and says 'Live long and prosper' like it's a 'Fuck You,' man, I was thrilled. It sublimated his issues in his most iconic turn of phrase.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Apr 16, 2016 22:51:03 GMT -5
Gul Dukat was wasted (he could've been given Damar's role, I didn't really care about that guy) I don't really think Dukat could have carried that Damar role. Not post-Season 5. I think he was way too far gone to have been redeemed that way. In a way, I appreciate that the writers didn't try to redeem him at the end. However, I feel like they went way too far in the other direction, turning him into a cartoon villain. Damar was a much better choice for that plot. I loved watching him come from nowhere to become the big hero. He was never presented as evil, like Dukat had been. It was fantastic watching him reject the Dominion. Also, I don't think Kira and Garak could have worked with Dukat in the way they worked with Damar.
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Post by Sanziana on Apr 17, 2016 10:38:40 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I'd say he was actually presented as pretty evil, not in a grandiose way, as Gul Dukat, but before he was the drunkard he was shown treating Kira and other Bajorans with utter disgust and killing Ziyal for absolutely no reason but pure hatred. Turning Gul Dukat mad and on to the Pah-Wraiths was a bad character decision; I think he could have been given easily Damar's arc instead. But I concede that Damar's redeeming was handled nicely and it was a great part of this last season.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 17, 2016 13:52:22 GMT -5
Turning Dukat into a cartoon villain really came down to the writers reacting a little too hard to people on the internet thinking he wasn't such a bad guy. "Waltz" is the episode that most effectively demonstrates this shift - it's the last good Dukat episode, but it ends with a portentous HE'S EVIL GODDAMNIT speech that signals how he's written thereafter.
It's a shame, and one of the biggest missteps of the generally excellent last two seasons, but there you go.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on May 17, 2016 14:06:27 GMT -5
My full Star Trek franchise watch is going to reach Deep Space Nine probably this week (currently late in the fifth season of the Next Generation) so of course I've been on YouTube looking for good DS9 videos because that's what I do. There's a lot of grainy, coppily edited stuff from a decade ago that I'm nonetheless very fond of, but then I found this, and ... yes... this is good.
Of course, my go-to favourite remains this fan-made trailer:
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