|
Post by ganews on Dec 1, 2016 14:33:23 GMT -5
Been reading some history.
Dare I liken this to liberalism and conservatism?
It is never enough for the winners of the world - from slave-holders to contemporary plutocrats - to merely win. They demand to be feted, to be constantly told that they are moral and right in their actions. The loser must not only accept fate, but smile and love Big Brother before he is killed.
|
|
|
Post by Logoboros on Dec 1, 2016 15:50:26 GMT -5
It is never enough for the winners of the world - from slave-holders to contemporary plutocrats - to merely win. They demand to be feted, to be constantly told that they are moral and right in their actions. The loser must not only accept fate, but smile and love Big Brother before he is killed. To be fair, this whole post could appear on Breitbart, including your own quote, to describe (just as one issue among many) gay marriage and trans rights. Basically, this describes how any two opposing ideologies view each other when their cause is based on the belief in the irreducible moral rightness of their position (as opposed, for example, to purely pragmatic concerns).
|
|
|
Post by ganews on Dec 1, 2016 16:26:07 GMT -5
It is never enough for the winners of the world - from slave-holders to contemporary plutocrats - to merely win. They demand to be feted, to be constantly told that they are moral and right in their actions. The loser must not only accept fate, but smile and love Big Brother before he is killed. To be fair, this whole post could appear on Breitbart, including your own quote, to describe (just as one issue among many) gay marriage and trans rights. Basically, this describes how any two opposing ideologies view each other when their cause is based on the belief in the irreducible moral rightness of their position (as opposed, for example, to purely pragmatic concerns). True enough! The difference, at least when we're talking about issues like those you mention, is that one side suffers a material consequence and the other gets their feelings hurt. With an economic policy decision there will always be monetary winners and losers. Legalized gay marriage, for example, didn't cost any private citizens money, but it made opponents unhappy. Discrimination against gays imposed real monetary disadvantages.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Lucan on Dec 2, 2016 16:21:35 GMT -5
This report from Rojava, from a year ago, is very much worth reading. (An accompanying video.) The character of the regime there, which is the product of PKK founder Abdullah Ocalan's inspiration by the works of Vermont anarchist ( and Bernie Sanders critic) Murray Bookchin is really quite inspiring and similar in striking ways to the experience of Revolutionary Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War, which Bookchin wrote about long before the current Kurdish nationalist movement had been formed. (The Kurds may be implementing in Rojava, or have the potential to implement, a democratic municipalism that Bookchin would have felt more congruent with his lifelong purpose than in Sanders' Burlington). As with any regime, and particularly any at war, its behaviour hasn't been beyond legitimate criticism (though the author of the HRW report was impressed with the response of the government to it, even if here's been some subsequent recrudesence). Nonetheless, that a regime in that region, positioned between the barbarity of Erdogan, Assad and ISIS appears to be as broadly committed as it is to a post-state, multicultural, cooperative, feminist democracy (with gender equality at all levels of administration and a heavily engaged all-female YPJ militia) is quite remarkable and inspiring. In the course of the past year, they've made great territorial advances. (I wish I could find better sources for maps and comprehensive monitoring rather than trying to piece together events from sporadic reporting; something like Jane's IHS). Incidentally, I noticed that Noam Chomsky, pace many on the left, and perhaps for the first time in favour of US military action, has argued for US/Coalition airstrikes in support of Rojava. Turkey is currently holding a salient through Rojava's Shahba region, anxious that they not unite their corridor. Kerry has proclaimed that there won't be any contiguous corridor and, last August, Biden flew to Ankara where he warned the Kurds not to attempt further to effect one. As it is, Erdogan has resumed the war against the Kurds in southwest Turkey, killing thousands, and the Turks have bombed the Kurds in Syria more than ISIS by a factor of three to four hundred. This is also an interesting consideration:
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Dec 4, 2016 14:12:41 GMT -5
So the current PM of Taiwan is Tsai Ing-wen, and when I heard this I thought, “huh, funny—without knowing the tones her name looks just like the Chinese word for English—Ing-wen (in Wade-Giles, which Taiwan still unofficially uses, yingwen in pinyin).” And it turns out her name is, in fact, 蔡英文—Tsai English. Turns out her father wanted to name her 蔡瀛文, but thought “瀛” was too many strokes for a girl to learn.
To be fair “英文” can also be translated as “heroic culture,” but it’s still kind of funny.
|
|
|
Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 4, 2016 15:15:32 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Dec 4, 2016 15:33:06 GMT -5
I’ve actually heard it suggested that Trump is going to make it harder for the European far-right to win election because really, do you want something like that?
|
|
|
Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 4, 2016 15:36:04 GMT -5
I’ve actually heard it suggested that Trump is going to make it harder for the European far-right to win election because really, do you want something like that? One can only hope. I guess Marine Le Pen will be the test of that one way or the other.
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 4, 2016 15:51:31 GMT -5
Lord Lucan The Kurds are non-coincidentally the only polity to have both overt and good relations with Israel. Jean-Luc Lemur 瀛 is certainly too many strokes for me to see.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 15:51:37 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 4, 2016 15:55:37 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon! They're both anti-Semites! Ellison's dangerous associations are well-known to those who care to look into them. Can't we all just not get along? Also, fuck her for saying "occupation." You have to be a country to be occupied. Gotta love her qualification that Keith Ellison is "a good man" with no deeper thought.
|
|
|
Post by ganews on Dec 4, 2016 16:11:44 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon! They're both anti-Semites! Ellison's dangerous associations are well-known to those who care to look into them. Can't we all just not get along? Also, fuck her for saying "occupation." You have to be a country to be occupied. Gotta love her qualification that Keith Ellison is "a good man" with no deeper thought. To the point, then, and removed from all other context: does it make someone an anti-Semite by definition (according to the ADL, yourself, or whatever you like) to not agree with Israel on everything?
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Dec 4, 2016 16:16:48 GMT -5
Just putting this here:
|
|
|
Post by ComradePig on Dec 4, 2016 16:31:57 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon! They're both anti-Semites! Ellison's dangerous associations are well-known to those who care to look into them. Can't we all just not get along? Also, fuck her for saying "occupation." You have to be a country to be occupied. Gotta love her qualification that Keith Ellison is "a good man" with no deeper thought. Poland? What Poland? You live in the General Government, friend!
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 4, 2016 16:49:49 GMT -5
ComradePig You are playing with fire with that Godwin talk.
|
|
|
Post by ComradePig on Dec 4, 2016 17:45:10 GMT -5
ComradePig You are playing with fire with that Godwin talk. In retrospect , probably the least tasteful comparison I could have fascetiously deployed, yes.
|
|
|
Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 4, 2016 20:52:26 GMT -5
ComradePig I would have gone with Tibet or something. Taste aside, the Nazis are previously played out as an analogy (they had a run of twelve years. Godwin's Law has already lasted longer than the actual Third Reich.) But jokes aside, Italy voted against a constitutional referendum, and now we'll probably see all kinds of debates as to what that means - the Five Star Movement, a populist political party that spearheaded the opposition to the amendment, counts this as a victory and as the current PM, Renzi, staked his reputation on the amendment he has had to resign. At minimum, there's going to be some uncertainty (with the Euro in decline pretty much immediately.) Who knows what else, but with an election scheduled for like 2018 (leave the eurozone, people speculate) I do not know what will happen. I could use with less general anxiety about politics though.
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Dec 4, 2016 21:08:29 GMT -5
Douay-Rheims-Challoner If it’s calming at all, per The Guardian evidently one of the reasons the margin against the referendum was so high was due to the fear from non-populists that the majoritarian aspects of the referendum would make it easier for populists to take power (IIRC there was something like a bonus on the senate for any party getting 40% or more); additionally leaving the EU/Eurozone would require another referendum for a constitutional amendment after the 2018 election. It’s not really a cut-and-dried The big challenge is dealing with all the bad debts in the Italian banking sector, which this does make a lot harder.
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 5, 2016 1:15:34 GMT -5
Jean-Luc Lemur That article was confusing as hell. What did the referendum actually entail, and is the defeat as threatening as the Guardian makes out?
|
|
|
Post by Lord Lucan on Dec 5, 2016 8:14:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Dec 5, 2016 12:07:45 GMT -5
Roy Batty's Pet Dove So my understanding is: 1. The referendum was on changes to the Italian constitution about the structure of Italian government and how electoral wins are apportioned to the government. That is all. To some extent it was seen as a Renzi power-grab and it was opposed by almost everyone except for Renzi die-hards—that’s why it lost so thoroughly. It doesn’t really fit into the establishment-vs.-populism frame everyone’s putting it in, even if populist parties are overjoyed—it upholds the existing government structure, after all! 2. The problem is, of course, that Renzi said he’d resign if the referendum failed, so now there’s a going to be a caretaker government until the next elections, either next year or in 2018. The problem is that the Italian banking sector is not in great shape (lots of bad debts), and the lack of a strong government this makes it harder to address their problems. This is also bad because there’s probably no insulating the global economy from an Italian banking sector fail (people don’t generally realize this but Italy actually has a massive economy—something like eighth largest in the world). 3. After those elections there might, depending on public mood/who’s in power, some question about Italy leaving the Euro. This would require another constitutional change and referendum, and Italy leaving the Euro would be disastrous not just for the Eurozone but also probably the EU. So it’s very easy to see a path from this referendum to global economic calamity, but it’s not quite straightforward.
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 5, 2016 14:50:58 GMT -5
Lord Lucan Rice is correct. The resumption of any kind of peace process is basically contingent on the election of a Zionist Union victory in the next election. We in the rest of the world may see Israel as just being about this one issue, but the people who live there don't, except for the Religious Right, who oppose peace and whom the Likud Party needs to form a government. If the Zionist List won, they could potentially (and, the other left-wing parties being small and unpopular, likely would need to) form a coalition with Likud, thus taking the pressure off Likud and enabling peace talks. And with the steady erosion of social welfare and emergence of a powerful and unregulated tech sector being major issues, you would expect the ZL to surge in support. Unfortunately, the ZL is poorly led and said economic anxieties have fueled the popularity of the so-called "radical center" party Yesh Atid, which doesn't actually stand for everything. Long story short, everything would be fixed if Gen. Ashkenazi got off his ass and led the Labor Party.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Lucan on Dec 5, 2016 16:58:58 GMT -5
Lord Lucan Rice is correct. The resumption of any kind of peace process is basically contingent on the election of a Zionist Union victory in the next election. We in the rest of the world may see Israel as just being about this one issue, but the people who live there don't, except for the Religious Right, who oppose peace and whom the Likud Party needs to form a government. If the Zionist List won, they could potentially (and, the other left-wing parties being small and unpopular, likely would need to) form a coalition with Likud, thus taking the pressure off Likud and enabling peace talks. And with the steady erosion of social welfare and emergence of a powerful and unregulated tech sector being major issues, you would expect the ZL to surge in support. Unfortunately, the ZL is poorly led and said economic anxieties have fueled the popularity of the so-called "radical center" party Yesh Atid, which doesn't actually stand for everything. Long story short, everything would be fixed if Gen. Ashkenazi got off his ass and led the Labor Party. Those are interesting thoughts, but not what Rice was talking about, unless you believe she was implicitly saying that diplomatically shielding the Israeli government from any consequences for its crimes was somehow likely to reduce the domestic popularity of Likud.
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 5, 2016 18:36:15 GMT -5
Lord Lucan Rice is correct. The resumption of any kind of peace process is basically contingent on the election of a Zionist Union victory in the next election. We in the rest of the world may see Israel as just being about this one issue, but the people who live there don't, except for the Religious Right, who oppose peace and whom the Likud Party needs to form a government. If the Zionist List won, they could potentially (and, the other left-wing parties being small and unpopular, likely would need to) form a coalition with Likud, thus taking the pressure off Likud and enabling peace talks. And with the steady erosion of social welfare and emergence of a powerful and unregulated tech sector being major issues, you would expect the ZL to surge in support. Unfortunately, the ZL is poorly led and said economic anxieties have fueled the popularity of the so-called "radical center" party Yesh Atid, which doesn't actually stand for everything. Long story short, everything would be fixed if Gen. Ashkenazi got off his ass and led the Labor Party. Those are interesting thoughts, but not what Rice was talking about, unless you believe she was implicitly saying that diplomatically shielding the Israeli government from any consequences for its crimes was somehow likely to reduce the domestic popularity of Likud. Perhaps implicitly. Netanyahu has suffered a precipitous drop in popularity since last year, and such action by the UN is liable to cause a rally-around-the-flag effect, especially given the historically antagonistic relationship with the UN originating with the Waldheim years, and especially UNESCO's current attitude toward the country.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Lucan on Dec 5, 2016 19:03:35 GMT -5
Those are interesting thoughts, but not what Rice was talking about, unless you believe she was implicitly saying that diplomatically shielding the Israeli government from any consequences for its crimes was somehow likely to reduce the domestic popularity of Likud. Perhaps implicitly. Netanyahu has suffered a precipitous drop in popularity since last year, and such action by the UN is liable to cause a rally-around-the-flag effect, especially given the historically antagonistic relationship with the UN originating with the Waldheim years, and especially UNESCO's current attitude toward the country. I very seriously doubt that was the calculation. They routinely shield Israel from incurring costs for its occupation and periodic massacres, alledgedly because it would be wrong and counterproductive to force them against their will. Not a policy it took toward Russia's occupation of the Crimea - a much less indefensible one - when it aggressively organized an international sanctions regime, or toward Cuba, which it was occupying itself, or toward Iraq when mass starvation resulted from the sanctions it imposed. And whatever Netanyahu's current popularity or lack thereof, for whatever reasons, that particular motion was vetoed in 2011, after which Netanyahu won an election in which he promised to forestall a two-state solution. And having done that and been tut-tutted by the Obama administration, it proceeded to announce this. A rational policy-maker might conclude that pro forma objections to crimes accompanied by such profusion directly facilitating their continuance doesn't meet Rice's 'overriding standard'. An honest one would simply dispense with the charade.
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 5, 2016 19:43:45 GMT -5
Lord Lucan Well, your talk of "massacres" insures that this conversation is over.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Lucan on Dec 5, 2016 20:55:34 GMT -5
Lord Lucan Well, your talk of "massacres" insures that this conversation is over. That's alright, Monty. There's no sense in your conversing beyond the point you find enjoyable.
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 5, 2016 20:58:33 GMT -5
Lord Lucan Well, your talk of "massacres" insures that this conversation is over. That's alright, Monty. There's no sense in your conversing beyond the point you find enjoyable. In the sense I don't enjoy debating libel, you're absolutely right.
|
|
|
Post by Buon Funerale Amigos on Dec 5, 2016 23:15:03 GMT -5
The findings of the Kahan Commission are libel?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 11:35:19 GMT -5
|
|