Ice Cream Planet
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 7, 2016 9:16:51 GMT -5
Inspired by Francine Prose's scathing and controversial essay, I Know Why the Caged Bird Cannot Read, and the general fact that high school reading lists almost entirely suck, I wanted to ask: if you were in charge of a high school (or whatever European equivalent, like sixth form college) English class, what books would you assign your pupils to read? They can be classics, more contemporary, fiction or nonfiction, 'literary' or entirely genre writing.
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moimoi
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Post by moimoi on Feb 7, 2016 11:30:05 GMT -5
What a great topic! I know there are two books that I would assign in tandem: Catcher In the Rye and The Bell Jar. Both books cover similar territory ('troubled' youth facing adulthood), but one from a male perspective and one from the female. I think it would be a great way to introduce discussions of gender and set an example for gender parity at a critical age. I remember having to read Catcher in high school, along with A Separate Peace and Lord of the Flies. How many boys have read A Tree Grows In Brooklyn (to say nothing of I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings)? All girls get is The Diary of Anne Frank, which doesn't count because the focus is on the tragedy of the Holocaust. Adolescent boys need to have some sense of what it feels like to be a girl and what it feels like to not be the center of the story. EDIT: To underscore this issue, check out this relatively updated Shortlist of 30 Best Coming-of-Age novels, which includes only 3 with female protagonists. www.shortlist.com/entertainment/books/the-30-best-coming-of-age-novels#
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Post by MrsLangdonAlger on Feb 7, 2016 11:46:39 GMT -5
I've always wished high schools and middle schools would make more use of young adult novels, so some that I would include are:
The His Dark Materials series, which covers interesting questions about religion and morality. Sophie's World: A Novel About the History of Philosophy to teach about philosophy. The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian Feed by M.T. Anderson, for it's questions about consumerism and connectedness. Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson, because goddammit youths need books about consent Two Boys Kissing by David Levithan or Am I Blue? by various authors to combat homophobia. A Great and Terrible Beauty for something that centers on young women. Graceling, Fire, and Bitterblue would also be great for this. American Born Chinese Persepolis The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, or something else for a non-NT perspective. The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which has a lot of great stuff on feeling lonely and different in high school. Little Brother to teach 'em to question the government.
And it's not YA, but I would have them read Contact, to teach them about atheism.
So, yeah, I don't think I have a single thing on my list that wouldn't likely be banned or highly contested by idiot schools and parents in the states.
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Ice Cream Planet
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 7, 2016 12:22:03 GMT -5
moimoi : If you like The Bell Jar, have you read the hauntingly gorgeous Janice Galloway novel, The Trick is to Keep Breathing? It's a contemporary classic from Scotland and one of the most lyrical and unsentimental portraits of depression I have read. Shirley Manson was such a big fan, she called up Galloway and asked her if Garbage could use the novel's name for one of their tracks on Version 2.0 (coincidentally, it's my favorite song of theirs). MrsLangdonAlger : A great list! It's sad and a fucked-up portrait of the school system that books like Speak or Little Brother would likely be banned. God forbid the teens read literature that gets them to challenge their own perspectives of the world and what the world tells them is the norm. I'd also add I wish there was more diversity in the 'genre fare' in high school reading lists. Yes, there are some great classics ( Frankenstein, Dracula, The Metamorphosis), but why not the works of Octavia Butler or Ursula K. LeGuin? And why not more crime and psychological suspense fiction, too? If part of high school English is theoretically to inspire teens to read, surely they should be exposed to brilliant writers like Patricia Highsmith, Elmore Leonard, and Wilkie Collins? ***** Dellarigg , Post-Lupin , Dr. Dastardly , and whoever else, which books would you select?
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Post by MrsLangdonAlger on Feb 7, 2016 12:38:41 GMT -5
moimoi : If you like The Bell Jar, have you read the hauntingly gorgeous Janice Galloway novel, The Trick is to Keep Breathing? It's a contemporary classic from Scotland and one of the most lyrical and unsentimental portraits of depression I have read. Shirley Manson was such a big fan, she called up Galloway and asked her Garbage could use the novel's name for one of their tracks on Version 2.0 (coincidentally, it's my favorite song of theirs). MrsLangdonAlger : A great list! It's sad and a fucked-up portrait of the school system that books like Speak or Little Brother would likely be banned. God forbid the teens read literature that gets them to challenge their own perspectives of the world and what the world tells them is the norm. I'd also add I wish there was more diversity in the 'genre fare' in high school reading lists. Yes, there are some great classics ( Frankenstein, Dracula, The Metamorphosis), but why not the works of Octavia Butler or Ursula K. LeGuin? And why not more crime and psychological suspense fiction, too? If part of high school English is theoretically to inspire teens to read, surely they should be exposed to brilliant writers like Patricia Highsmith, Elmore Leonard, and Wilkie Collins? ***** Dellarigg , Post-Lupin , Dr. Dastardly , and whoever else, which books would you select? Speak, I think, is something a lot of young girls would really NEED to read, so anytime I hear about it being contested I'm sad. On genre fare, Butler and LeGuin would both be great! I was thinking of putting the Annals of the Western Shore series on there. The second book, Voices, would be particular good both as genre fare and something written by and about women. Lavinia would also tie in nicely to any class reading The Iliad.
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Ice Cream Planet
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 7, 2016 12:48:33 GMT -5
moimoi : If you like The Bell Jar, have you read the hauntingly gorgeous Janice Galloway novel, The Trick is to Keep Breathing? It's a contemporary classic from Scotland and one of the most lyrical and unsentimental portraits of depression I have read. Shirley Manson was such a big fan, she called up Galloway and asked her Garbage could use the novel's name for one of their tracks on Version 2.0 (coincidentally, it's my favorite song of theirs). MrsLangdonAlger : A great list! It's sad and a fucked-up portrait of the school system that books like Speak or Little Brother would likely be banned. God forbid the teens read literature that gets them to challenge their own perspectives of the world and what the world tells them is the norm. I'd also add I wish there was more diversity in the 'genre fare' in high school reading lists. Yes, there are some great classics ( Frankenstein, Dracula, The Metamorphosis), but why not the works of Octavia Butler or Ursula K. LeGuin? And why not more crime and psychological suspense fiction, too? If part of high school English is theoretically to inspire teens to read, surely they should be exposed to brilliant writers like Patricia Highsmith, Elmore Leonard, and Wilkie Collins? ***** Dellarigg , Post-Lupin , Dr. Dastardly , and whoever else, which books would you select? Speak, I think, is something a lot of young girls would really NEED to read, so anytime I hear about it being contested I'm sad. On genre fare, Butler and LeGuin would both be great! I was thinking of putting the Annals of the Western Shore series on there. The second book, Voices, would be particular good both as genre fare and something written by and about women. Lavinia would also tie in nicely to any class reading The Iliad. I haven't read it myself, but I know what it's about, and I wish it had been on my reading list. I don't have any familiarity with the Annals of the Western Shore, unfortunately, but I'll take your word for it. I'll be on the look out for any books in the series next time I'm out and about at a bookshop. A big reason why I would love someone like Octavia Butler on a high school reading list is that it would force an honest discussion about 'diversity' quotas in English class syllabi. So many books from writers of colors tend to fall into such a narrow window. You have There Eyes Were Watching God, The Color Purple, Beloved, and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, which are all important books, but don't show that, hey, there are some really great books written by nonwhite authors that can be fantasy or sci-fi or horror. Encourage the imagination and the weirdness! Same with books with LGBT content (if they even make it on the list). Bildungsromans and books about coming out are important and there are many great examples, but having novels like the works of Sarah Waters and Armistead Maupin are even better ways to illustrate how there is so much more to being queer than simply struggling with coming out of the closet.
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Paleu
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Post by Paleu on Feb 7, 2016 13:27:45 GMT -5
The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, or something else for a non-NT perspective. While I totally agree with trying to bring in a voice from the autistic spectrum, I'd strongly disagree that this book is the one. The best comparison I can come up with is trying to teach a class about schizophrenia using the movie A Beautiful Mind. It just isn't an accurate portrait of the illness, and it manages to be massively offensive to boot. I only wish I could come up with a good alternative, but most books with this theme are just as trite as Curious Incident.
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Dellarigg
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Post by Dellarigg on Feb 7, 2016 13:41:02 GMT -5
I would do what I do with my students, which is to give them the stuff I personally like and enjoy talking about, irrespective of how beneficial it is for them. So the usual: Amis, DFW, King, Hemingway.
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Ice Cream Planet
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 7, 2016 13:57:25 GMT -5
I would do what I do with my students, which is to give them the stuff I personally like and enjoy talking about, irrespective of how beneficial it is for them. So the usual: Amis, DFW, King, Hemingway. A simple yet elegant way to show you are a good teacher.
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Post by MrsLangdonAlger on Feb 7, 2016 15:13:47 GMT -5
The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, or something else for a non-NT perspective. While I totally agree with trying to bring in a voice from the autistic spectrum, I'd strongly disagree that this book is the one. The best comparison I can come up with is trying to teach a class about schizophrenia using the movie A Beautiful Mind. It just isn't an accurate portrait of the illness, and it manages to be massively offensive to boot. I only wish I could come up with a good alternative, but most books with this theme are just as trite as Curious Incident. You're right, and I had that thought shortly after posting it. I also can't think of a good alternative.
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Paleu
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Post by Paleu on Feb 7, 2016 18:17:00 GMT -5
MrsLangdonAlger I totally understand, there really is a poverty of good books about autism. I'm just especially sensitive to that book because I read it on the suggestion of my boyfriend, who himself read it on the suggestion of his parents because his brother is autistic. My boyfriend hated it, and wanted to see if I agreed with him or with his parents, all the more because I have an autistic brother as well. Unsurprisingly, I agreed with my boyfriend, and I'll take any opportunity to complain about that book. I would love just once for a book about autism to have no mentions of mathematics. JUST ONCE. Onto my actually high school reading suggestion, though: if I were to teach a class about gender, and how perceptions of gender color our views of things, I would assign "The Screwfly Solution" by James Tiptree and "The Women Men Don't See" by Raccoona Sheldon and have the students discuss the various differences between the ostensibly male and female inclinations of the two different authors, before revealing that Tiptree is Sheldon's nom de plume. I imagine that would create some very interesting conversations, at the very least!
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Post by MrsLangdonAlger on Feb 7, 2016 18:55:46 GMT -5
MrsLangdonAlger I totally understand, there really is a poverty of good books about autism. I'm just especially sensitive to that book because I read it on the suggestion of my boyfriend, who himself read it on the suggestion of his parents because his brother is autistic. My boyfriend hated it, and wanted to see if I agreed with him or with his parents, all the more because I have an autistic brother as well. Unsurprisingly, I agreed with my boyfriend, and I'll take any opportunity to complain about that book. I would love just once for a book about autism to have no mentions of mathematics. JUST ONCE. Onto my actually high school reading suggestion, though: if I were to teach a class about gender, and how perceptions of gender color our views of things, I would assign "The Screwfly Solution" by James Tiptree and "The Women Men Don't See" by Raccoona Sheldon and have the students discuss the various differences between the ostensibly male and female inclinations of the two different authors, before revealing that Tiptree is Sheldon's nom de plume. I imagine that would create some very interesting conversations, at the very least! That last idea is absolutely brilliant!
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Feb 7, 2016 19:10:51 GMT -5
Ooh, that was a good essay—really got to the core of reading (and most other narrative art): the experience of something beyond oneself. I was very sympathetic.
If I were an English teacher I’d probably concentrate on works that would give one a solid grounding to read other stuff in the future, so it would probably be very classics/defining English literature-oriented. I actually felt like I got a fairly good English curriculum in my junior year Ancient World-to-modern world literature sequence, starting with Gilgamesh, going on to Aeschylus and Euripides, Roland (an experiment, and IMO not a successful one—they used to do Chaucer, and since I still haven’t read Chaucer I feel like I’ve been left out) and finally Othello for the first semester and then Austen, Faust Book I, Frankenstein plus a bunch of Percy Shelley poems, Balzac and splitting up into different groups for more contemporary world literature (so a ton of twentieth-century Chinese lit for me). It’s not necessarily a perfect curriculum—late nineteenth-early twentieth stuff got put off to AP English and not all of the selections, but I feel like I had a basic understanding of the essential stuff—especially in terms of cultural reference—that later writers use to build their works. Plus it was exciting, unlike freshman English, even though it never really tried for “relevance.”
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Post by Desert Dweller on Feb 7, 2016 19:28:23 GMT -5
The essay linked in the original post was great in how it challenged the status quo of American high school English. It made me realize why I hated my English classes even though I love books. I even remember being acutely aware at the time that the classroom teaching was ruining otherwise great books like "Huck Finn" and "Great Gatsby".
And I have often wondered why we don't use these classes to simply teach about great writing. The way literature is currently taught makes it very unsurprising that so many kids don't learn to love to read.
I don't think I could teach in high school. I'd want the class to be much more like a college class.
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moimoi
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Post by moimoi on Feb 8, 2016 0:00:46 GMT -5
Ice Cream Planet - Thank you for the recommendation! I added The Trick... to my Goodreads list. Consulting the same list--as well as my English major brother, who loves to talk about this stuff--I would recommend the following for high schoolers: The Iliad* by Homer Medea* by Euripedes Hamlet by William Shakespeare - NOT Romeo & Juliet*! The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas Great Expectations* by Charles Dickens Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte - or Wuthering Heights* by Emily Bronte Frankenstein by Mary Shelley The Turn of the Screw by Henry James The Picture of Dorian Gray* by Oscar Wilde Bartelby the Scrivener* by Herman Melville - or Billy BuddCrime and Punishment* by Fyodor Dostoevsky Heart of Darkness* by Joseph Conrad - but with supplemental readings by African authors, such as Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe Swann's Way by Marcel Proust or Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce The Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton The Awakening by Kate Chopin Siddhartha by Herman Hesse Orlando* by Virginia Woolf - it wasn't assigned reading, but I picked it up for AP English and it's my favorite book of all time Maurice by E.M. Forster - or Howards EndThe Grapes of Wrath* by John Steinbeck - or East of Eden* The Power and The Glory by Graham Greene - or For Whom the Bell Tolls by Ernest Hemingway Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler Confessions of Felix Krull, Confidence Man: The Early Years by Thomas Mann - since it's unfinished, students can imagine their own endings Kokoro by Natsume Soseki Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston 1984 by George Orwell - or Animal Farm*Catcher in the Rye* by J.D. Salinger - or Franny & ZooeyThe Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie by Muriel Spark The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz Life of Pi by Yann Martel *books I read in high school I'm leaving off The Great Gatsby because, while I endorse Fitsgerald's writing, I think you have to be a little older to get something from it. Same with Catch-22. Of course, there are kids in high school reading Pynchon, but if we're talking general curriculum, I think the selections above strike a good balance.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Feb 8, 2016 1:28:16 GMT -5
moimoi : If you like The Bell Jar, have you read the hauntingly gorgeous Janice Galloway novel, The Trick is to Keep Breathing? It's a contemporary classic from Scotland and one of the most lyrical and unsentimental portraits of depression I have read. Shirley Manson was such a big fan, she called up Galloway and asked her if Garbage could use the novel's name for one of their tracks on Version 2.0 (coincidentally, it's my favorite song of theirs). MrsLangdonAlger : A great list! It's sad and a fucked-up portrait of the school system that books like Speak or Little Brother would likely be banned. God forbid the teens read literature that gets them to challenge their own perspectives of the world and what the world tells them is the norm. I'd also add I wish there was more diversity in the 'genre fare' in high school reading lists. Yes, there are some great classics ( Frankenstein, Dracula, The Metamorphosis), but why not the works of Octavia Butler or Ursula K. LeGuin? And why not more crime and psychological suspense fiction, too? If part of high school English is theoretically to inspire teens to read, surely they should be exposed to brilliant writers like Patricia Highsmith, Elmore Leonard, and Wilkie Collins? ***** Dellarigg , Post-Lupin , Dr. Dastardly , and whoever else, which books would you select? We read A Wizard of Earthsea in ninth grade English. Had a couple of lessons on the Hero's Quest. A couple of the other teachers taught Eragon instead, this being around the time that the movie was coming out, but luckily I had one of the good English teachers.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Feb 8, 2016 2:39:28 GMT -5
A lot of this is just the stuff that I personally remember liking in high school (or which, regardless of if I appreciated it at the time, is too important to really be skipped). A couple of these are books that I read as an underclassman that I'm really glad were assigned to me because I think they're kind of perfect to teach to high school underclassmen, in part because there's a lack of subtlety that I think can appeal to high schoolers but doesn't hold up as well to adult readers (like To Kill a Mockingbird, Ninteen Eighty-Four, and Les Miserables). My list is probably too close to an actual generic high school syllabus, since, again, the vast majority of it is stuff that I read in school. Also, I'd prefer a list that wasn't as overwhelmingly straight, white, and male as the one that I've assembled.
To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin The Odyssey by Homer Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell Les Miserables by Victor Hugo Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare The Crucible by Arthur Miller Hedda Gabler by Henrik Ibsen One Day In the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Alexander Solzhenitsyn Light In August by William Faulkner - Faulkner is one of my favorite authors, but my first exposure to him was by having to read As I Lay Dying in high school, and I did not much enjoy 250 pages of Faulknerian stream-of-consciousness. But then I was assigned Light In August, which also has some stream-of-consciousness-y stuff, but it's so much more accessible than AILD. It's also way more dramatic which made it a lot more compelling to the high school-aged me. And by the time I was done with Light In August, I realized that Faulkner was actually really great and I was able to appreciate AILD a hell of a lot more. I think that AILD is probably a better book overall than Light In August, but the latter is far better entry point to Faulkner. Also, in spite of the fact that Faulkner held some frustratingly contradictory views on racism, Light In August is in a lot of ways pretty relevant to the current public discourse surrounding racism. He also does a fairly decent job of depicting how deeply misogyny is ingrained into society (although, as with racism, Faulkner could also be frustratingly sexist). Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zola Neale Hurston Macbeth by William Shakespeare Hamlet by William Shakespeare Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
Books I Didn't Read For High School English Middlemarch by George Eliot - I think that this could appeal to students in the same way that the similarly openly idealistic Les Miserables does. Middlemarch is less exciting, and a bit less melodramatic, and I might not have properly appreciated it in the tenth grade when I read Hugo, but I think by senior year I'd have liked it quite a bit. The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath - moimoi makes a good point about high school syllabi needing more books from a girl's perspective, and The Bell Jar is a great choice. And my only exposure to Plath in high school was through a couple of her poems, which are much harder to grasp than her prose, and I think it's generally best not to present authors at their most enigmatic to high schoolers. Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf - Do high schools not usually teach Woolf's stuff? Because I never had to read anything of her's in high school, which seems pretty crazy. I get that her more stream-of-consciousness stuff can be kind of confusing and that Mrs. Dalloway isn't super straightforward, but it's nowhere near as difficult a read as As I Lay Dying. Also Woolf is much better at writing prose than Faulkner is, or really anyone writing in English in the last century, in my opinion, at least based off of Mrs. Dalloway. Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut
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Ice Cream Planet
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 8, 2016 3:52:49 GMT -5
moimoi : I hope you enjoy it! And what a fantastic list you compiled. I particularly love the E.M. Forster ( Howards End is one of my favorite novels) and Raymond Chandler suggestions. As for Bronte sisters (always a good choice), have you read Villette by Charlotte Bronte? I've heard wonderful things. Jean-Luc Lemur : Prose can be a bit of snob from time to time (like I would expect of anyone who regularly contributes to NYRB), but she hits so many great points about high reading lists encouraging literary mediocrity and the exercises focusing on approaching literature in the most self-obsessed ways possible. As for your proposed reading list, it's wonderfully thorough. I have no familiarity with Chinese literature from the 20th century; anything you'd recommend for a newcomer? Desert Dweller : You and me both. I love to read, and even while I loved to do so in high school, the horrible way my English classes were taught made me have to relearn, in a way, the joy of reading in undergrad and the years after. My high school English classes were all part of the International Baccalaureate program, so even with a large section of theoretically great global literature, was so poorly taught, even now, the idea of reading Gabriel Garcia Marquez makes me gag. Probably not what my sophomore year teacher intended, but he certainly succeeded in that regard. Paleu : Adding 'The Screwfly Solution' and 'The Women Men Don't See' to my list. Thank you! Roy Batty's Pet Dove : I envy you got to read an Earthsea novel in 9th grade. Otherwise, of your selected dream list, so many terrific choices. I know my school never made us read Woolf, which is a shame. The only people I know who did were some British friends of mine who said they read it when they were studying for their GCSEs. Also, speaking of Woolf, I just got Mrs. Dalloway in the post the other day!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 6:17:28 GMT -5
My senior year I took a class called Men & Women in Literature, with one of the best teachers I ever had.
I don't remember all the books we discussed, but we did read Like Water for Chocolate, which was excellent.
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Ice Cream Planet
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 8, 2016 7:30:32 GMT -5
My senior year I took a class called Men & Women in Literature, with one of the best teachers I ever had. I don't remember all the books we discussed, but we did read Like Water for Chocolate, which was excellent. I remember reading that book one Thanksgiving. It felt like the appropriate choice.
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moimoi
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Post by moimoi on Feb 8, 2016 12:29:04 GMT -5
Ice Cream Planet - Thanks! I could probably use some more contemporary selections on the list, but to be honest, I haven't read much contemporary fiction. Also, I never read Thomas Hardy And I'm glad we agree on Forster. Howard's End is probably a less controversial choice, but I think Maurice is a great coming-of-age story about self-acceptance that wouldn't scare off straight kids, if taught correctly. It reinforces the fact that homosexuality is a part of the human condition that has existed in every place and time--not some new tactic of the 'liberal agenda'. It's also a good example of how social repression (in this case, the criminalization of homosexuality) can fuel art. I had never heard of Villete, but it sounds awesome. That's going on my to-read list as well :-) Screaming Lion King Slippers - I am in absolute agreement about Hedda Gabler, Middlemarch and Cat's Cradle, and you put forward fine arguments for A Light in August and Mrs. Dalloway
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Post by Dr. Dastardly on Feb 8, 2016 12:53:20 GMT -5
Awesome topic, Ice Cream Planet . I haven't read that essay yet but I look forward to it. Some ideas: Old shit Antigone (Sophocles) can lead you into a great conversation about authority and how shitty it sometimes is Huck Finn, as a reminder that America has a long history of shittiness Wuthering Heights for its outsized emotions - this is what "love" actually feels like to teenagers! Bartleby the Scrivener - good one moimoi , this story is great and no high schooler should be forced through Moby-Dick Newer shit Anything by Nella Larsen Bell Jar On the Road (can really only be read by high schoolers) We Have Always Lived in the Castle, Shirley Jackson Flannery O'Connor Dorothy Parker Native Son (seriously, you can quit when they start babbling about communism, it's boring) The Street, Ann Petry Clockwork Orange Watch Baz Luhrmann's Romeo + Juliet, the best way I can think of to introduce a teenager to Shakespeare Night by Elie Wiesel, the best book I know of about the Holocaust (would also accept Maus, of course) Between The World And Us - Tanehisi Coates - the most important book about race of this generation, and plenty readable, and kids love being pissed off about stuff and they'll sure get that Maidenhead by Tamara Faith Berger - I think parents will enjoy the scene where a dude pees on a girl and she kinda likes it Not To Kill a Mockingbird, which I find paternalistic and simplistic Diary of Anne Frank, which is honestly pretty boring, although oodles of high school girls who have left nasty messages under my two-star Goodreads review beg to differ. I admire your chutzpah Roy Batty's Pet Dove but I don't think most high schoolers would enjoy Middlemarch. Takes too long to get rolling. Anything by Nathaniel Hawthorne - I actually really like Scarlet Letter but I think high schoolers could probably do without it, and I'd hate for them to get the impression that all metaphors should be that fucking obvious
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Post by Dr. Dastardly on Feb 8, 2016 13:09:59 GMT -5
Reading that essay now. We agree about a lot of things, that author and me! Not about Night. And then also she's all, students come out of high school unable to parse "the most basic information in a story by Henry James." Um, no one can parse shit in Henry James, that dude is a pain in the ass. (Sorry moimoi - Turn of the Screw is at least a pretty good one as far as James goes, although it too suffers from, like, you know when slime got poured over kids in that Nickolodeon show? Imagine words instead of kids, and punctuation instead of slime, and there's Henry James.) And when she starts complaining about diversity...look, we didn't just make up the idea that students should read books by diverse authors. It's because we're teaching diverse kids, and it sucks when they go through high school without ever encountering anyone who came from where they come from. It sucks for real, and these are real kids, and people just like them have actually written great books. Complaining about Maya Angelou is fine, but you can't just throw up your hands and be like "White guys it is then!" (She briefly mentions James Baldwin - good idea - but that's it.) The first two thirds of Native Son are terrific; Ann Petry's The Street, also good; Passing or Quicksand by Nella Larsen are both accessible and brilliant. She's got a point with Flannery O'Connor, that's a great idea. And I'll throw in our perpetual favorite, Shirley Jackson - I know The Lottery is often taught and I liked it in high school. We Have Always Lived in the Castle should go over well.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Feb 8, 2016 14:17:45 GMT -5
Ice Cream Planet I actually was expecting not to like the article as it began early on because she can be damn condescending but she won me over. I can’t remember exactly who we read—a lot of it was heavy post-cultural revolution brutally depressing stuff (I bet there was a bit of Mo Yan thrown in there), and really the idea that you’re fucked over by everything is pretty much the standard for a lot of twentieth-century Chinese literature, starting with “The True Story of Ah Q” back in the early twenties. In terms of contemporary Chinese ones I’d recommend Mai Jia’s Decoded, which is an excellent psychological portrait of a Mao-era cryptographer who’s a bit off, though he’s not necessarily autistic (which probably wouldn’t have even been recognized as a diagnosis in the time period when it takes place) and he is a mathematical savant thus Paleu’s criteria for a good book about the spectrum is not fulfilled. moimoi I’m actually not a big fan of Heart of Darkness for high schoolers—I read it and came away not really liking and enjoying Conrad. I only got into Conrad when I picked up The Secret Agent in college—and then only after being convinced I should give the guy a second chance and now I’m a big fan of pretty much anything Conrad.
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Like an iron maiden made of pillows... the punishment is decadence!
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Post by Baron von Costume on Feb 8, 2016 17:12:21 GMT -5
During the brief period where it seemed to be acceptable hereabouts I was lucky enough to get into advanced English followed by taking the Literature* class my last two years. The curriculum for this class was a lot more open and other than our assigned shakespeare unit for the year we got to avoid most of the bullshit assigned reading most high school kids face. We generally covered at least 2 books for every one that the non-advanced class covered in grade 10 and for 11/12 it was probably more like 4. The extra cool thing was that for the the last two books of the year our assignment was to read something from his giant stack of books at the back and write an essay about what themes it had and why he should or shouldn't read it/add it to next year's curriculum. Even on some of the assigned stuff it was "read one of these 5 books on topic X, I don't care which one." I've gone back and read some of the other stuff due to cultural conversation/reference stuff but man am I glad I didn't have to spend 2 months discussing Flowers for Algernon. Off the top of my head for cool stuff I got to read even if I didn't love all of them, also definitely got to read more female authors than most: (Note: Definitely some canada-centric stuff) The Fionavar Tapestry (Actually just the summer tree but I devoured the last two the next weekend after my paper was done) - Guy Gavriel Kay, still one of my favourite authors A Fine Balance - Rohinton Mistry Generation X and Microserfs - Coupland The Stone Angel - Margaret Laurence The Stone Diaries - Carol Shields Surfacing - Margaret Atwood (and a couple others but I can't remember what was for what) Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson King Leary - Paul Quarrington The Cure for Death by Lightning - Gail Anderson-Dargatz -- A book I can imagine being super popular with american school boards given it features a bestiality scene Like Water for Chocolate - Laura Esquivel Love in the Time of Cholera - Gabriel Garcia Marquez The English Patient - Michael Ondaatje Catch-22 The Mists of Avalon - Marion Zimmer Bradley Various Extra Shakespeare (some of that blends in with first year uni courses but I'm pretty sure I read King Lear and Merchant of Venice for sure.) In a lot of those cases I may not have necessarily endorsed the author/book for future inclusion in mandatory reading but man did it open up some windows I wouldn't have had until much later otherwise. *We had a stupid mandatory core English as well that was supposed to be 'english for the real world' and was taught by an teacher who was really into pop psych and basically taught me how NOT to write a university level essay. She actually called out my disdain and eye rolling to her for my parent teacher interview. She spent the whole year telling me I'd fail the provincial standardized test if I didn't write her way. I ended up with I think the 3rd highest grade in the class because I wrote the way I did for my lit teacher who I respected a ton. It must have been soooo galling for her to hand me that mark and because it was provincially mandated that the Standard Test make up like 65% of your mark she couldn't fuck with me too much on the end of it.
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Ice Cream Planet
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I get glimpses of the horror of normalcy.
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 8, 2016 17:43:17 GMT -5
moimoi: I still need to read Maurice (I have a copy of it back in the States, which I plan to bring back with me during my next visit), but I think it, and The Price of Salt by Patricia Highsmith would make for an excellent back-to-back reading, not only because they are beautiful, thoughtful novels, but because they both show homosexuality was something that existed for so many years. Forster and Highsmith just dared to talk about it frankly. Plus, there could also be an interesting discussion about how Highsmith chose to use a nom de plume and Forster waited until he was dead before his novel was officially published. Certainly says quite a bit about their respective cultural climates. Dr. Dastardly: I'm thrilled you like this topic. I love your proposed list, particularly the Shirley Jackson, Flannery O'Connor, and Dorothy Parker suggestions. Same with A Clockwork Orange, which is one of my favorite novels. As for the essay itself, her point about diversity wasn't bad, in and of itself, but I think the fact she didn't acknowledge genre fare hampered her argument. Sort of like a mentioned with MLA, so much writing from non-SWM authors that is selected for high school reading is limited in its literary scope, particularly regarding genre, but not directly saying, 'hey, what about authors like Octavia Butler?' does limit the discussion. Regarding Henry James, I need to revisit The Wings of the Dove. I adored the film adaptation, which I remember liking more than the book, because the extraordinary performances from Helena Bonham Carter and Alison Elliot gave the story a deeply humanistic edge that was more obscured by James' precise, chilly prose. Jean-Luc Lemur: Thank you for the suggestion! I've added Decoded to my list.
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Post by Dr. Dastardly on Feb 9, 2016 9:02:47 GMT -5
I haven't read Price of Salt or Maurice, because I'm the worst, so I'm not sure what I'd throw in for "gay stuff". (Now that I've taken Moby-Dick off the table. *WINK*) I'm not at all a fan of Jeanette Winterson's Oranges are Not the Only Fruit, which is on a lot of syllabi. I think it's corny. Maybe Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin? Especially if I'm to take whats-her-name's suggestion to just give 'em good literature and trust them to figure it out. I worry that it's too rooted in the heavily closeted 50s and Europe and shit, and too oblique, but it's at least very short- which I think is a good consideration for high school reading; more, shorter perspectives, rather than spending a month on one book that may only work for some people. And it talks a lot about the danger and agony of the closet, which is likely to be of interest to gay high schoolers. Baron von Costume wow, I haven't even heard of a lot of those books. Which I take as an impressive sign, not sure why. Not sure I'd throw Catch-22 at high schoolers - it's hard! Long, episodic and not always clear about what's even going on. Y'know, for war books I'd be tempted to go with the recent Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk by Ben Fountain. It's extremely readable (although the fucking of cheerleaders, while it might make some of the lads happy, is not well-written or conceived). It specifically refers to Catch-22's core message, which is that they're trying to murder me and I don't like it, and it gets into "Who gets to tell this story - the media who would like heroes and villains and noble acts of war, or me, the guy whom they're trying to murder and I'm not at all into that?"
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Baron von Costume
TI Forumite
Like an iron maiden made of pillows... the punishment is decadence!
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Post by Baron von Costume on Feb 9, 2016 10:30:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't either Dr. Dastardly, I know I read it again a few years later and definitely got more out of it. As for some of the others a few are very Canadian and though they won National (and often Brit/International) prizes aren't super well known in the USA.
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Ice Cream Planet
AV Clubber
I get glimpses of the horror of normalcy.
Posts: 3,833
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Post by Ice Cream Planet on Feb 9, 2016 14:00:30 GMT -5
I haven't read Price of Salt or Maurice, because I'm the worst, so I'm not sure what I'd throw in for "gay stuff". (Now that I've taken Moby-Dick off the table. *WINK*) I'm not at all a fan of Jeanette Winterson's Oranges are Not the Only Fruit, which is on a lot of syllabi. I think it's corny. Maybe Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin? Especially if I'm to take whats-her-name's suggestion to just give 'em good literature and trust them to figure it out. I worry that it's too rooted in the heavily closeted 50s and Europe and shit, and too oblique, but it's at least very short- which I think is a good consideration for high school reading; more, shorter perspectives, rather than spending a month on one book that may only work for some people. And it talks a lot about the danger and agony of the closet, which is likely to be of interest to gay high schoolers. I still need to read Maurice and Giovanni's Room, so that makes two of us. I cannot The Price of Salt highly enough; it's a masterpiece and one of the new novels I would say deserves the honor of being called a Great American Novel™. Regarding the books being rooted in a heavily closeted, pre-criminalization aesthetic, it's an important point to consider. I would argue what sets those books apart is they show non-straight sexuality existed long before the 60s (no surprise to us, but to a few hypothetic kids in the class, it could very well be) and how by being forced to be more careful with how said sexual identities were presented, the novels featured wonderfully complex characters and were more about their personalities instead of the genitals and related proclivities. Granted, it also helped that Baldwin, Highsmith, and Forster were so talented and had a knack for creating complicated characters in their works. For more recent examples, Tales of the City, Hotel Living, and the majority of Sarah Waters' works could/should be studied. As for queer YA fiction, I know there is a ton of it, but I haven't read any myself. MrsLangdonAlger: What LGBT-centric YA books would you recommend?
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Post by MrsLangdonAlger on Feb 9, 2016 17:57:12 GMT -5
I haven't read Price of Salt or Maurice, because I'm the worst, so I'm not sure what I'd throw in for "gay stuff". (Now that I've taken Moby-Dick off the table. *WINK*) I'm not at all a fan of Jeanette Winterson's Oranges are Not the Only Fruit, which is on a lot of syllabi. I think it's corny. Maybe Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin? Especially if I'm to take whats-her-name's suggestion to just give 'em good literature and trust them to figure it out. I worry that it's too rooted in the heavily closeted 50s and Europe and shit, and too oblique, but it's at least very short- which I think is a good consideration for high school reading; more, shorter perspectives, rather than spending a month on one book that may only work for some people. And it talks a lot about the danger and agony of the closet, which is likely to be of interest to gay high schoolers. I still need to read Maurice and Giovanni's Room, so that makes two of us. I cannot The Price of Salt highly enough; it's a masterpiece and one of the new novels I would say deserves the honor of being called a Great American Novel™. Regarding the books being rooted in a heavily closeted, pre-criminalization aesthetic, it's an important point to consider. I would argue what sets those books apart is they show non-straight sexuality existed long before the 60s (no surprise to us, but to a few hypothetic kids in the class, it could very well be) and how by being forced to be more careful with how said sexual identities were presented, the novels featured wonderfully complex characters and were more about their personalities instead of the genitals and related proclivities. Granted, it also helped that Baldwin, Highsmith, and Forster were so talented and had a knack for creating complicated characters in their works. For more recent examples, Tales of the City, Hotel Living, and the majority of Sarah Waters' works could/should be studied. As for queer YA fiction, I know there is a ton of it, but I haven't read any myself. MrsLangdonAlger : What LGBT-centric YA books would you recommend? I will think on this and post back tonight after my meeting! I read SO MANY good ones when I was first coming out, and many good ones in between.
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