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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 2, 2018 6:04:27 GMT -5
The last act of Spectre is brutal, but the final scene is aces. Agreed about the final scene, absolutely. It's the ideal send-off for Craig's Bond, and feels tonally very similar to the end of Never Say Never Again (i.e. concluding the character). Pity it wont work that way, though I would give mad props to Bond 25 if it opened with the same farewell shot as Spectre closed with then Bond was just immediately attacked or something. The Rankings will be posted some time this weekend, I wanted to give people a chance to discuss Spectre before it got drowned out by "How could you put that first/last!" conversations. There will, at this point, be Movies Ranked, Bonds Ranked, Idiocy Of Schemes Ranked, Villains Ranked, Blofeld's Ranked (separate category, they deserve it), Bond Themes Ranked. There may be more dependent on my enthusiasm. And I still haven't decided if I'm going to do supplemental material, but if so they'll be shorter reviews and no The Actual Movie, just a write-up.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Nov 2, 2018 10:59:20 GMT -5
The last act of Spectre is brutal, but the final scene is aces. Agreed about the final scene, absolutely. It's the ideal send-off for Craig's Bond, and feels tonally very similar to the end of Never Say Never Again (i.e. concluding the character). Pity it wont work that way, though I would give mad props to Bond 25 if it opened with the same farewell shot as Spectre closed with then Bond was just immediately attacked or something. The Rankings will be posted some time this weekend, I wanted to give people a chance to discuss Spectre before it got drowned out by "How could you put that first/last!" conversations. There will, at this point, be Movies Ranked, Bonds Ranked, Idiocy Of Schemes Ranked, Villains Ranked, Blofeld's Ranked (separate category, they deserve it), Bond Themes Ranked. There may be more dependent on my enthusiasm. And I still haven't decided if I'm going to do supplemental material, but if so they'll be shorter reviews and no The Actual Movie, just a write-up. The first time I saw Spectre, my immediate reaction was "They have no idea if Craig wants to do another one, do they?"
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Nov 2, 2018 14:01:30 GMT -5
I know you were hesitant to do a ranking of "Bond Girls" (understandable) and a ranking of Q's or M's would likely be pointless landslides. But would you consider some sort of combined ranking of non-villain supporting character performances? If nothing else it would give you one last chance to rave about Dench and I really want to see if any Felix had enough presence to even sniff the Top 10.
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 3, 2018 9:09:58 GMT -5
I know you were hesitant to do a ranking of "Bond Girls" (understandable) and a ranking of Q's or M's would likely be pointless landslides. But would you consider some sort of combined ranking of non-villain supporting character performances? If nothing else it would give you one last chance to rave about Dench and I really want to see if any Felix had enough presence to even sniff the Top 10. That's a good idea for sure, I'll do a Supporting Characters one.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Nov 4, 2018 7:56:05 GMT -5
Ooo , ooo most/least successful adoption of genre trends and fads!
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 4, 2018 12:35:22 GMT -5
The Movies, Ranked
1. From Russia With Love – An obvious choice, sure, but it’s just a note-perfect thriller and the perfect example of Bond as thriller, rather than as action movie, comedy, romance etc. Connery is stunningly good, the plot is a great Cold War spy caper, and it’s shot beautifully.
2. Goldeneye – It was a tough call between this and Casino Royale, but in the end this is a smarter, leaner script. Brosnan is never better, the grudge battle works, and an excellent supporting cast flesh out a compelling post-Cold War world.
3. Casino Royale – An invigorating return to form, this is less indebted to the Bourne movies than it is the Connery ones, stripping Bond back to its basics and getting on with telling a great story. Craig immediately dispels any criticism of casting, and in Mads Mikklesen finds an excellent advisory.
4. The Spy Who Loved Me – Effortlessly the best “Bond as comedy”, Moore finally gets to fully embrace his version of the character in a movie that’s very self-aware but which never allows that self-awareness to undercut the story. Funny, charming, daffy and thoroughly lovable.
5. Goldfinger – It's Goldfinger. The titular bad guy is the best of the Connery adversaries, Honor Blackman is amazing, and the whole thing is delivered with a huge amount of panache and style. Quite irresistible.
6. Skyfall – For a movie that didn’t have to do anything more than “sum up fifty years” Skyfall manages to actually push at the boundaries of Bond with terrific results. Dench is never better (some achievement, that) and we have the best villain of the Craig era. 7. The Living Daylights – Dalton's strongest movie, finally getting stuck into Bond’s Cold War roots in a proper way, and the man himself is just brilliant. It remains a terrible shame he only got two movies, but first time out of the gate he knocks it out of the park.
8. Moonraker - Yes, Moonraker! In the top ten! A film that takes the approach of The Spy Who Loves Me and pushes it to ludicrous and frequently hilarious extremes. It makes, even by Bond standards, little literal sense, but it’s full-throated approach to the ludicrous is something to be treasured. The outer edge of what Bond can do in this mode, but what an edge.
9. License To Kill – Savage, cold and unrelenting, License To Kill is a perfect example of “Bond as ruthless killing machine” and it takes that premise to its extreme. Not the easiest of films to watch at times, but Dalton is brutally effective and he’s met by an equally implacable bad guy in Sanchez in a battle of wills. Extremely compelling.
10. Tomorrow Never Dies – As a film which is essentially the Jonathan Pryce All-You-Can-Eat Scenery Buffet there’s a lot to enjoy here. Michelle Yeoh is a simply fantastic female protagonist on Bond’s level and Stamper the best henchperson in simply ages. The film’s media-control angle is extremely prescient and means this has aged better than almost any Bond Big Villain Plan so the movie itself has matured nicely. Better now than on release.
11. No Time To Die - As good an exit for Craig as could have been hoped for, given Spectre's dismal performance. Craig is engaged and appealing and although the story rambles all over the place, it still manages to feel fairly coherent. Rami Malek joins a long list of good actors who don't quite manage to make a distinctive bad guy, and it all goes terribly Call Of Duty after a certain point, but the ending is genuinely unique and deserving of real credit for going somewhere no other Bond movie has.
12. The Man With The Golden Gun – Still miles better than its reputation. Christopher Lee is the stand-out here, of course, but Moore’s unusually downplayed performance is also worthy of considerable praise. It's a long way from flawless but there’s a lot to enjoy here and a real sense of the series finding its feet in all sorts of positive ways.
13. Never Say Never Again – Connery's final outing is downright charming as the Elder Statesman of the role steps back in to his most famous character one last time. Not flawless, but unquestionably entertaining, and way better than the film it’s ostensibly a remake of. Another example of a movie that’s much better than its reputation, “official” status be damned. And there are few things more fabulous than Fatima Blush’s outfit!
14. Dr No – A solid, if relatively middling, start for the series. Connery is outstanding and gets the role of Bond off to a perfect start, but the script wanders about a bit before getting to the point, and Dr No himself is disappointingly undeveloped. Still, as a series-launcher Bond had to be perfect and he absolutely is so it’s for this Dr No deserves to be appreciated.
15. The World Is Not Enough – Bond as action movie, though absolutely nothing else, The World Is Not Enough delivers the explosions and adventure, but at the expense of an interesting or coherent plot. The early expansion of M’s role is welcome, but Robert Carlyle is oddly forgettable as the main bad guy.
16. For Your Eyes Only – Muddled scripting sees Bond return to a more “realistic” mode without bothering to inform us why “realistic” is something that’s especially worthwhile for this kind of film. Moore’s getting to the point where he’s obviously not that invested any more, and though there’s some nice moments here and there and a great Julian Glover performance, there’s only a limited amount to get excited about.
17. You Only Live Twice – It could have been great. So much potential in the first two-thirds is elegantly pissed up against a wall in a rush of unexpected racism, over-the-top antics and an everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach to a finale that exchanges credibility for scale. The action is good, but it undermines all the careful lead-up, and... well, we’ve dwelled enough on the slanty-eye make-up and woman with the face of a pig, so let’s draw a veil and move on.
18. On Her Majesty’s Secret Service - The best Blofeld meets the worst Bond. This is another could-have-been-great entry but it’s let down by an overly long running time, love-by-montage, a poorly though-out plan, and a miscast Lazenby. He never really convinces as Bond, and though Diana Rigg works hard to make her and Bond seem convincing it doesn’t quite come off. The end of the movie is outright brilliant but it’s not enough to make up for the flaws of what came before it.
19. Die Another Day - I mean, it is another one that’s better than its reputation, but not by a vast margin. Frustratingly broken-backed, the first third proves Brosnan’s still got it, but much of the rest of the movie suggests nobody else does. Halle Berry’s an unexpected bright spot, but in the end her adventures as a neo-Bond seem a bit more interesting than actual-Bond, which is kind of a problem.
20. Spectre – It's got its moments but not enough of them to overcome a fundamentally flawed script, and the inclusion/return of Spectre and Blofeld is vastly unnecessary. Craig’s still great, and more Ben Wishaw is always a big plus, but this is sloppy in the extreme.
21. Thunderball – Great production values cannot in any way overcome how dull this all is. Connery’s all kinds of terrific, but in service of a boring story that’s just impossible to care about. An actively engaged female protagonist with agency stops this sinking all the way to the bottom (ho ho) but tedium wins out.
22. Quantum Of Solace - “So what’s the big evil organisation out to steal this time? Oil? Plutonium? State secrets? Technology? Weapons? Territory?” “Water.” “Really? That’s it?”
23. Diamonds Are Forever - Tatty, cheap and ersatz, there’s nearly nothing to recommend this. Connery’s clearly only in it for the money (which, to be fair, he did something worthwhile with), nobody seems to have thought anything through, and by the time we find out what the diamonds are even for most of the audience are likely to be comatose.
24. Octopussy – Somehow worse. All the same flaws as Diamonds (heh) but without the redeeming ten minutes in Amsterdam. The treatment of India is outright racist, Moore clearly does not have one single unique fuck left to give, and everything hinges on vast co-incidences while it all ends with Orlov apparently choosing suicide-by-guards. Why anyone would want to watch this is a mystery.
25. A View To A Kill – Somehow worse again. Moore now has so few fucks left to give he’s passed through into negative numbers, Patrick Mcnee is completely wasted, and when the acting styles of Grace Jones is the closest you can come to a redeeming feature then enough has been said. Oh but wait I’m wrong because it’s necessary to mention Tanya Roberts, who is out-acted by much of the scenery. More painful to watch than a knotted rope to the testicles wielded by Mads Mikklesen, and a script that creaks almost as much as the star’s joints.
26. Live And Let Die – It's still a racist piece of shit movie and I’m not giving it any quarter just because it’s a well-produced racist piece of shit movie. Fuck this film. Fuck it forever.
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 4, 2018 12:38:01 GMT -5
The Bond Themes, Ranked
1. The James Bond Theme – Fine, it’s not technically a “Bond theme” as we would traditionally understand it, but it’s one of the most immediately identifiable piece of music in all cinema, it’s hugely infectious, and it deserves to sit at the top of the pile.
2. “Goldfinger” – Of course. The first of three outings for Shirley Bassey and boy does she have the voice to belt this out. Sublimely over-the-top just like the movie it was made for, delightfully orchestrated, and the definitive Bond theme.
3. “Skyfall” – Adele turns in a vocal that might actually be a series-best (sorry Shirley) and the performance is matched by a song that’s every bit as good. Sublimely good orchestration and a real understanding of when to use restraint and when to go big makes this very nearly the best of the lot.
4. “Thunderball” – Tom Jones does to this song what Shirley Bassey does to “Goldfinger” and to similar effect. Blisteringly good vocals and some perfectly placed timpani (“and he strikes!” du-da-du-du-dumm! “like Thunderball!” make this an absolute barnstormer of a song.
5. “Live And Let Die” – The sole redeeming feature of the movie it’s attached to, “Live And Let Die” has some terrific George Martin orchestration, and Paul McCartney sounds engaged and passionate (not a given during the 70’s). The song’s even able to pull off a shift to pseudo-reggae in the middle before successfully switching back to the main melody. A great piece of work.
6. “We Have All The Time In The World” – The late, great Louis Armstrong delivers a heartbreakingly perfect vocal that’s referenced in the last line of the movie. It’s also the music the movie film have ended with, but there’s no denying the brilliance of this.
7. “Goldeneye” – Tina Turner steps up to the platform vacated by Shirley Bassey and proves remarkably adept at delivering a song by Bono and The Edge (which, astonishingly, doesn’t suck!). This feels like a return to the old ways of doing things after a squall of synthesisers during the 80’s but it’s a style that’s re-embraced with real gusto.
8. “The Living Daylights” – And speaking of synthesisers… Dalton gets a terrific song to start his all-too-brief tenure in the role as A-Ha unexpectedly turn in the best work of their career. It couldn’t sound any more 80’s but it’s a fantastic song.
9. “You Only Live Twice” – Lushly-orchestrated loveliness that avoids the trap of trying to sound “Oriental” to accompany a film largely set in Japan, and dreamy, drifting vocals from Nancy Sinatra make this a captivating piece of music.
10. “Nobody Does It Better” - Carly Simon has the perfect voice for this, and it’s a perfect match for the film it’s attached to, more than a little silly but incredibly endearing. And Ms Simon has quite the set of pipes on her too.
11. “Diamonds Are Forever” – Our Shirley’s second entry on the chart and one of her most iconic songs, “Diamonds Are Forever” sparkles in exactly the way the movie doesn’t. Another amazing vocal (of course) as she makes a fair claim to be the definitive Bond voice.
12. “From Russia With Love” – The first “proper” Bond theme sees Matt Monro give it his all. He’s got a good voice and it’s a strong song, but he’s about to be eclipsed by two of the best songs in Bond history so this tends to get a bit forgotten. That’s a little unfair though – if this isn’t quite the strongest entry on the list then it’s still a good song with a great vocal.
13. “The World Is Not Enough” – It’s more than a little derivative, sure, and Shirley Manson is definitely doing a Bassey impression, but she’s got a good enough voice to pull it off which is quite the feat. Better than the film it accompanies, but well-orchestrated and the final crashes of the chorus as we rush to the end are wonderful.
14. “Moonraker” – The third and least impressive of Shrley Bassey’s songs and it’s still pretty great. Perhaps a little over-lush in places, but her voice is as good as ever it was and it works well with the film.
15. “For Your Eyes Only” – Not bad, but a bit winsome and again falling into the 70’s trap of over over-lush orchestration. Sheena Easton has the voice for it and she gives a good performance, but the song itself isn’t quite up to snuff.
16. “A View To A Kill” – Duran Duran were always going to get a Bond theme, so here it is. It’s… fine – like A-Ha’s effort it’s exceedingly, sometimes painfully, 80’s and the over-use of orchestra stabs is a bit of a shame, but there’s a good song under slightly dodgy production.
17. “License To Kill” – Gladys Knight, one of the most iconic singers of all time, deserved better than this. Her voice is beyond reproach here, but the song isn’t befitting a talent of this stature and despite a terrific performance from her this remains pretty unremarkable.
18. “All Time High” – The same problem as “License To Kill” but with a noticeably inferior singer, “All Time High” is anything but. Entirely unmemorable – if only the same could be said of Octopussy…
19. “You Know My Name” – Chris Cornell’s effort isn’t bad, exactly, so much as impossible to remember. One of the things that defines a good Bond theme is it being memorable, and this is the precise, exact opposite of memorable. Utterly forgettable, this is too hard to recall even to slag off. Next!
20. “The Man With The Golden Gun” – Lulu gives is her all in service of absolutely nothing. The orchestration doesn’t sound pacey and exciting, it sounds frantic and desperate, as if playing something really fast is going to make the song sound thrilling. It doesn’t. Terrible lyrics too. As mentioned during the review, the slightly slowed down version at the end of the movie is substantially better than the actual one used, so it’s a shame the didn’t go with that instead.
21. “Die Another Day” – Once again, something connected to Die Another Day doesn’t come in dead last, though it’s not far off it. Madonna’s a hilariously terrible, if perhaps inevitable, choice to do a Bond theme, and the staccato instrumentation and sung-through-a-bullhorn vocal jar in ways that are both funny and bad. Woefully misconceived.
22. “Tomorrow Never Dies” – Sheryl Crow just does not have the voice to pull off this kind of material, though it’s doubtful anyone could have made this audio turd smell sweet. She doesn’t have the power required, and the whole thing just sounds exhausted and derivative. Hugely disappointing. It should have been kd’s! (or Pulp’s. Or Saint Etienne. Or The Cardigans. There were any number of better options available!)
23. “The Writing’s On The Wall” – Sam Smith’s popularity probably made a Bond theme from him unavoidable, but did it have to be this dreadful? The arrangement is terrible with lots of mistimed spaces in the orchestration, and scads of breathy vocals entirely fail to sound like they belong anywhere near a Bond theme. It sounds like any random album track dropped over a Bond title sequence by someone who doesn’t seem to have any idea of what a Bond theme is actually supposed to achieve.
24. “Another Way To Die” – Do people even remember the name of the song from Quantum Of Solace, or is it just generally known as “that train wreck that Alicia Keys and Jack White did”? Still, it’s a song that entirely befitting the movie it’s attached to, so there’s that.
25. “Never Say Never Again” – No surprises at this end of the chart, I’m afraid. Lani Hall proves to be woefully inadequate to the task of making what’s already a dreadful song even halfway palatable. Some of the worst lyrics in Bond history (which, you know, is going some) meet a tepid, wet-tissue-paper performance and squealing early-80’s guitars that sound less like a musical instrument and more like someone’s kicked a pig. Never has the gulf between the talent of the people involved and the end result been so wide in Bond. And we could have had Bonnie Tyler do this! It would still be a terrible song, but at least she’d camp it up a bit – but no, instead we have to suffer through the vocal stylings of Ms Hall. Avoid at all costs.
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 4, 2018 12:41:56 GMT -5
Supporting Characters, Ranked
Characters other than Bond or the principal villains.
Top Ten 1. Judi Dench, “M” – Well, that was a shocker. The idea of getting a serious actor in to play it straight in what was always a relatively minor role was something of a revelation at the time, and Dench was so good in the role she came to actually dominate a Bond film (Skyfall) in the way no other M ever has. That she’s beyond brilliant is unquestionable, but it’s worth pointing out that she plays very well with both her Bonds, though in very different ways.
2. Desmond Llewelyn, “Q” – Hardly a controversial choice either, but Llewellyn brought so much warmth and patrician schoolboy scolding to the role that he’s simply impossible not to warm to. Playing against five (!) separate Bonds over the course of his career, he always found something new to do with each one of them, even when the character was little more than Chekov’s Gun in a lab coat. Sadly missed, but greatly appreciated.
3. Diana Rigg, “Tracy di Vicenzo” – Easily the best thing about On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, Rigg brings a touch of class and redefines what it’s possible to do with the female protagonist role in a Bond movie. Charming, delightful, and doing a lot more than a straightforward Mrs Peel impression, she lights up the movie every time her character turns up. It’s a shame she’s not in a stronger overall movie but that in no way reduces her status as a stand-out part of the one she is in.
4. Robbie Coltrane, “Valentin Zukovsky” – One of the highlights of the Brosnan era, Coltrane’s Zukovsky remains a compelling glimpse into parts of the world Bond doesn’t often get to interact with, a world away from glamorous nightclubs and fast cars. He’s a duplicitous character but not beyond redemption and Coltrane can’t help but give him a slightly warm edge, despite his genuinely dangerous side. The character’s only in two movies – the right length of time – so he’s not over-exposed and he is a great addition to both of them.
5. Richard Kiel, “Jaws” – Despite never being a principal villain, Jaws remains the most iconic adversary of the Moore years thanks to an implacably relentless performance from Keil. Like Zukovsky he’s only in two movies, but the impact he makes far outreaches his screen time. With just a single line in both movies he makes more impact that some characters manage with pages of dialogue, and it’s a tribute both to his performance and to his memorable dental wear that he’s able to make such an impression.
6. Hervé Villechaize, “Nick Nack” – Bond villains often have a secondary henchperson to do all the heavy work while they’re off scheming to take over the world, but few make quite an impact as Nick Nack, a diminutive butler/pervert that hangs around with Scaramanga. Unlike many henchpeople he survives his encounter with Bond (even if his dignity doesn’t), and he remains a strikingly unusual character within the series, ably brought to life by a very unrestrained performance.
7. Bernard Lee, “M” – The best of the male M’s to date, Lee imbued M with a stentorian attitude of barely-restrained irritation with Bond that never quite tipped over into dislike – the frustration was more born of how much he knew Bond was capable of and was disappointed he never quite fell in line. Lee never faltered in a role that was only rarely more than Exposition To Get The Movie Going, and it’s to his credit that he was able to make the part such a stand-out of any film he was in.
8. Samantha Bond, “Miss Moneypenny” – Still the best Moneypenny, the appropriately-named Bond was the first person to have the opportunity to do a Moneypenny that wasn’t just a bog-standard secretary or fawning over Bond. She had a lovely rapport with Brosnan that retained the core element of the character without just ditching what made Moneypenny so appealing in the first place. Naomie Harris gets to do way more with the role, but it was Bond who got to break down the stereotypical walls of the character to aptly demonstrate there were more interesting things to do with her in the first place.
9. Honor Blackman, “Pussy Galore” – The second Avengers alum on the list, Blackman gives Pussy a degree of swagger and bravado light-years away from what would become the “Bond girl” cliché, and she’s good enough that she can hold her own against both Connery at the height of his powers and Gert Frobe. The character’s name might have launched a thousand stupid-Bond-girl-names, but the woman behind the name is never less than a core reason that Goldfinger is such a phenomenal film.
10. Halle Berry, “Jinx” – The unexpectedly brilliant character flitting about the edges of a movie that is very far from brilliant, Halle Berry gives a fantastic performance in a fun role where she gets to do lots of Bond stuff to great effect. The script occasionally misuses her (as when she’s trapped and drowning in the ice palace) but Berry is never less than fantastic in the role and makes a real case for her being given her own action franchise. What a shame that turned out to be Catwoman…
Honourable mention: Jeffrey Wright, “Felix Leiter” – It’s a measure of how badly the Bond movies have handled the character of Leiter than he doesn’t even scrape into the top ten. Until Wright came along they couldn’t even get the same actor to play him twice in a row, and the character mostly just turns up at plot-convenient moments to help Bond out of a tight spot. Wright has lots of potential to do something different though – he gives Leiter an appealingly hang-dog weariness that works for the character and he’s a terrific actor. Now we just need a movie that can do something with that…
Bottom Ten
1. Tanya Roberts, “Stacey” – Straight in at the top of the list is the single worst major performance in the entirety of Bond, and it goes to Tanya Roberts. How anyone though this was going to work simply beggars belief – she can’t act, she has no rapport with Moore, and often seems to find walking in a straight line something of a struggle. The character’s terrible anyway, but with Roberts behind her the whole thing sinks irredeemably. Eek.
2. Clifton James, “Sheriff JW Pepper” – Let’s be clear, nobody could have made this work. Pepper is a fucking terrible character, punishingly unfunny, and imbued with not one single redeeming feature. James takes all that, though, and somehow makes it worse, turning in every lazy Southern cliché in the book while failing to give the audience any reason why they wouldn’t want to simply see the character die. Two films was two films too many.
3. Denise Richards, “Dr Christmas Jones” – Denise Richards, to give the poor woman her due, certainly has her charms, but there is literally nothing about her that screams “nuclear scientist”. One of the very worst pieces of miscasting anywhere, Richards can’t come close to making Jones seem like an actual human being rather than an autocue on legs, and even Brosnan struggles when asked to play opposite her. Unfathomably terrible.
4. Steven Berkoff, “General Orlov” – Ok I’m picking a side here and declaring Khan the principal villain of Octopussy, which means I get to slag off Berkoff’s eye-rolling loony-tunes performance as Orlov. I mean, what did anyone think when they first saw this? Could nobody have asked him to take it down even a single peg? Berkoff’s obviously a gifted actor, but here he stakes a real claim to being the very worst villain in all of Bond. It’s funny, but it’s still awful.
5. Jane Seymour, “Solitaire” – Lots of female protagonists struggle when contrasted with Bond. Lots of them are found to be wanting. But very few are quite so pathetically useless as Solitaire, an absolutely gobsmackingly abysmal character rendered even worse by Jane Seymour’s flat inability to demonstrate one human emotion convincingly. Live And Let Die has many terrible things about it, but Solitaire making it to the end credits might just be the worst.
6. Charles Gray, “Blofeld” – Gray’s not a bad actor by any stretch but he’s another example of miscasting and his Blofeld is about as threatening as a comfy armchair. There’s never once where his interpretation of the character becomes compelling, or even interesting, and the idea that this is going to be the guy that threatens the world? No chance. Dr Evil has more sense of threat about him. (I know Blofeld is a principal villain – I’m making an exception to my rule here simply because there’s so many Blofeld’s to pick from).
7. Jill St John, “Tiffany Case” – Jill St John is to 70’s Bond movies what Denise Richards was to 90’s Bond movies – a casting mistake that should have been avoided around the time of the auditions. At least nobody’s expecting us to buy her as an alleged nuclear scientist but that doesn’t stop her weak, winsome performance dragging down an already terrible film.
8. Edward Fox, “M” – Never Say Never Again deserved a better M than Fox’s spluttering, incredulous take on the role. Even Connery looks at him with a kind of pity, trying to kid on this is the guy he’s meant to respect and whose orders he should be following, but nobody could make Fox’s M work. At least his screen-time is limited.
9. Olga Kurylenko, “Camille Montes” – Who?
10. Willoughby Gray, “Carl Mortner” – There are many, many ridiculous things about A View To A Kill, but none of them quite match Gray’s bonkers attempts at doing a German accent while acting out (and that’s a pretty generous description) the role of Christopher Walken’s dad. And nothing can quite prepare you for the sight of him trying to take his revenge on Bond after Zorin’s death, a scene that’s lacking only a sad trombone to really nail that final humiliation.
Dishonourable mention: Madonna, “Verity” – Her role’s too minor to really justify putting her in the bottom ten, a cameo at most, but she’s still openly terrible, and since she’s also responsible for that godawful theme she’s getting stuck in here.
The Blofelds, Ranked
1. Telly Savalas – The only time the character comes even close to working, it’s a credit to Savalas that he’s not given much more to work with than the other Blofeld’s but still manages to make him seem like a convincing rounded character actually capable of doing all the things he’s always threatening. Savalas has a physical presence too that’s sorely lacking the other Blofelds, a bruiser of a man who isn’t all talk no action but who can actually take care of business himself.
2. Donald Pleasance – Here’s the thing. Other than Telly Savalas, all the Blofeld’s are basically rubbish. Pleasance gets to the number two spot simply by being memorable, and by becoming the “default setting” whenever anyone thinks of Blofeld. But you’d be hard-pressed to call his giggling, childish performance “good” in any meaningful sense.
3. Christoph Waltz – Blofeld is poorly written and utilised during Spectre but that’s not Waltz’s fault, and when given the right material he shows what he can do with the role. Not flawless by any means, but there’s still potential there should the character return.
4. Max von Sydow – Not given a vast amount to do, really, but you know – it’s not like Max von Sydow can turn in a bad performance, even while the character barely registers in Never Say Never Again
(5. Anthony Dawson – He’s just a cat-carrying pair of legs at the AGM Of Doom)
6. Charles Gray – See Casting, What Were They Thinking?
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Post by Liz n Dicksgiving on Nov 5, 2018 15:22:56 GMT -5
Oooh, I'm so glad to see Moonraker ranked at no. 8! That one is criminally underappreciated. And seriously, Prole Hole , this series has been amazing. I'm so sorry that we've now run out of Bond movie reviews to look forward to. Are you sure you don't want to take on a series of second-impression reviews?
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Nov 5, 2018 15:53:03 GMT -5
Tomorrow Never Dies in the top 10! Dalton and Brosnan as the most consistently good Bonds (as determined by the their top 2 finishes in "average movie ranking" with 8 and 11, respectively)! The biases of my youth are rewarded!
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Nov 5, 2018 16:46:04 GMT -5
Here's a what if scenario though: Given that all the "proper" Bond runs ended with easily their worst outing (or worst-except-for-the-ludicrously-racist-one), do we think Dalton would have actually turned out another Top 10 outing if he'd stuck around? Dalton would have also worked in GoldenEye, I think, but would that have been the movie we got? A return to something more akin to The Living Daylights? Or would we have got the turd in the punch bowl outing and Dalton just becomes another guy that stuck around a movie or two too long?
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Post by pairesta on Nov 5, 2018 17:05:31 GMT -5
Here's a what if scenario though: Given that all the "proper" Bond runs ended with easily their worst outing (or worst-except-for-the-ludicrously-racist-one), do we think Dalton would have actually turned out another Top 10 outing if he'd stuck around? Dalton would have also worked in GoldenEye, I think, but would that have been the movie we got? A return to something more akin to The Living Daylights? Or would we have got the turd in the punch bowl outing and Dalton just becomes another guy that stuck around a movie or two too long? That's a great question. I remember even at the time of LTK coming out there were questions about if Bond could be relevant in a post-Soviet world, and going with drug dealers as the big villain was their attempt to get away from it. It seems like the Broccolis only get scared by failure into truly trying something different, so I have a hard time believing they'd embrace something as bold as Goldeneye was if they felt Dalton was "working" in the role. I doubt we'd have had a 6 year wait for the next Bond movie if Dalton had stayed, so unfortunately, the odds are we'd have gotten another rote, checking the boxes Bond at best.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Nov 5, 2018 18:23:24 GMT -5
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 5, 2018 19:06:02 GMT -5
Right, a few things to digest here: Liz n Dicksgiving - Thank you! Glad you have enjoyed this. If Im honest there's a small part of me that's slightly tempted to return to the early Connery's because I was writing much less back then and it would be nice to give them the same full analysis as the later movies. But I think there will need to be a pause before that. Even writing the Ranked charts topped out at 5,000 words (and I had to ditch the Idiocy Of Plans, Ranked because I only have so many words in me). But... I can't honestly say I'm not tempted, and I'm pretty sure I'll do the Niven Casino Royale sometime in the next few weeks. And whenever Bond 25 gets released I'll do an addendum to include it. Superb Owl 🦉 - It's impossible to know if Dalton could have turned out another Top Ten movie, of course, but he's an easy fit into GoldenEye (I know it was at least started with him in mind). It might feel a bit similar to The Living Daylights with Dalton in the driving seat, but it would still be a fantastic movie and him at Sean Bean would make a good pairing. Imagining Dalton in Tomorrow Never Dies is a tougher fit though - Brosnan feels like a more natural Bond for that movie (which of course makes sense). But even then - four movies wouldn't feel like sticking around too long, I don't think. Powerthirteen - My ability to care about Radiohead ended a good two decades ago. Honestly, they're a terrible choice for a Bond theme.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Nov 5, 2018 19:09:57 GMT -5
Right, a few things to digest here: Powerthirteen - My ability to care about Radiohead ended a good two decades ago. Honestly, they're a terrible choice for a Bond theme.
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Post by pairesta on Nov 6, 2018 8:42:52 GMT -5
My list!
Top 5 Bond Movies:
1. From Russia With Love
2. Casino Royale
3. The Spy Who Loved Me
4. The Living Daylights
5. Goldfinger
Pretty much Prole’s ranking. The big surprise is how strong TLD is; I’ve always liked it but I really enjoyed it this time, cello sled chase excepted. Also I expected Goldeneye to be top 5 but it just barely misses it; there’s a big swath in the middle there that could be cut. And Goldfinger, which I ragged on, and my wife hated, is still just so archetypal and there’s some outstanding set pieces in there.
Worst 5:
1. Diamonds are Forever
2. Day Another Day
3. A View to A Kill
4. Spectre
5. The World is Not Enough
DAF is just sleazy, through and through. A paunchy, hungover looking Connery, the Vegas setting; that goddamned moon buggy chase; I feel like I need a shower after it. Spectre, despite having lots of good things to say about it the first half, takes such a massively terrible turn that I’m astounded nobody said anything during its production to stop it. I continue to confuse all the post-Goldeneye Brosnan movies, and mistook TWINE for Tomorrow Never Dies at first. But as I said in the discussion, TWINE is the first ever Bond movie I came away disliking; it was boring.
Bonds:
1. Sean Connery
2. Daniel Craig
3. Timothy Dalton
4. Roger Moore
5. Pierce Brosnan
6. George Lazenby
1 and 2 were given but I really struggled with the middle Bonds. I could give a different answer on a different day. I have no answer to the fact that I rank Craig and Brosnan’s four respective outings almost the same way (one classic, one average, and two duds), yet Brosnan is second worst and Craig is second best.
I liked Dalton a lot more watching both of his movies this time and appreciate him as a dry run for Craig.
While I admit Moore is mostly sentimental, I don’t think he gets enough credit for re-defining Bond after Connery (and Lazenby failed). I could even make the case that he should be third but figure this is controversial enough.
Best Villain: Aurich Goldfinger
Best Henchman: Jaws
My earliest memory of James Bond is walking in on my Dad watching The Spy Who Loved Me on one of ABC’s Sunday Bond airings and there was Jaws. He terrified me, and stuck with me since. When I think of James Bond one of the first things I think of is still Jaws, so there you go.
Worst Villain: Waltzfeld
I could probably pick a worst villain, but many of them are bad because they just aren’t memorable. Waltz’s Blofeld though is everything wrong with Spectre summed up in one package. Just a complete misfire, and the epitome of the fallacy of modern movies having to have EVERYTHING be “personal” for the hero.
Best Bond Girl: Tracy Di Vicenzo
While there's deep problems to say the least on how she brought into the fold with Bond, Rigg owns the entire movie and it lags when she disappears for the middle swath of it. Her performance grounds everything and makes the shocking ending all the more gutting.
Worst Bond Girl: I mean, yeah, how could it not be Tanya Roberts? "JAAMMMES! DON'T LEAVE ME!!!!"
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 8, 2018 6:32:40 GMT -5
pairesta - To be honest, I feel a bit bad putting Moore second-to-last, but it's more a reflection on the fact, I think, that the writers seemed to really struggle when it came to finding a workable version of his interpretation of the character. When they got it right he was absolutely spectacular, but I think more of his scripts got it wrong than right, and his era is the one that suffers most from that. Die Another Day is not in any sense a good movie, but at least the first third understands how Brosnan's version of the character works and writes towards that. Diamonds Are Forever is beyond ghastly, but having Connery's version of the character pal around in Vegas has at least an initial frisson of makes-sense, because Connery's got some of that 50's Rat Pack charm/smarm about him. What I mean by this is that, even in their worst films, the other actors still get their version of the character written towards - but in Moore's worst outings there's no sense of a character at all, so unsurprisingly he can't get the chance to play it. It also takes three full movies for his version of the character to come to fruition (Live And Let Die just has his faff about, and The Man With The Golden Gun has him playing relatively straight and against type), whereas every other actor gets their version of the character first time out (Dr No is flawed but Connery isn't; The Living Daylights is exactly what Dalton needed; GoldenEye is perfect for Brosnan and Craig's first turn very nearly beats out Connery). This really damages Moore's time in the role - the writing is inconsistent and after a certain point (For Your Eyes Only I would say, during which Moore clearly just stops caring) there's no sense at all he's still playing James Bond, it's just Ageing Character Actor Roger Moore Doing Things Around The World. In many ways I find Moore the most frustrating of Bonds to watch - Lazenby's failure in the role is straightforward because he's just not a good enough actor, but with Moore, it's so obvious how good he is, but he's let down on almost all sides at some point and it just undermines everything he tried to do. As you pointed out Moore deserves real credit for keeping the series going after Connery's departure (twice) and Lazenby's failure. It's such a shame that this never quite converted in to him getting the chance to provide an equally definite version of the character. Nice lists! Always happy to see Goldfinger up there as a top baddie. He's just so fabulous. Disappointed nobody has weighed in on Bond themes! Powerthirteen - Perhaps I should clarify. Radiohead don't have the right emotional cadence for a Bond theme. Especially now when everything is lost in electronic washes, skittering emotions and wailing there's really no obvious way of converting that into a workable Bond theme, and sorry but the Spectre you posted there wouldn't work any better than Smith. To be honest, even though I ranked The Writing's On The Wall almost last, the idea of using Sam Smith to do a Bond theme makes sense - he's certainly got the voice for it and, given the right material, he could probably turn out a decent Bond theme. As a rule, although she seems like a delightful individual and has a great voice I strongly dislike Adele's music, but she's a perfect choice to sing Skyfall and the song and performance are stunning. That's what Smith needed to make using an artist like him work. And that's what I'd fear Radiohead would give us - a Radiohead song, possibly even a good Radiohead song (and I'm sure The Writing's On The Wall is likely a good Sam Smith song) but one wholly inappropriate for a Bond movie.
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Post by ganews on Nov 8, 2018 9:02:54 GMT -5
And that's what I'd fear Radiohead would give us - a Radiohead song, possibly even a good Radiohead song (and I'm sure The Writing's On The Wall is likely a good Sam Smith song) but one wholly inappropriate for a Bond movie. But surely this is exactly what Paul McCartney gave us, and it made #5. The only concession to "Live and Let Die" being a Bond theme is the title and a little dramatic orchestra thrown in. (Not that I can imagine a Radiohead Bond theme either.)
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Nov 11, 2018 20:35:17 GMT -5
I think You Only Live Twice is the one Connery Bond I somehow haven't seen. Does having seen You Only Move Twice give me an accurate idea of the finale, though? Ok, I finally watched this last night and...what is even the point of the marriage subplot?
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 12, 2018 12:07:00 GMT -5
And that's what I'd fear Radiohead would give us - a Radiohead song, possibly even a good Radiohead song (and I'm sure The Writing's On The Wall is likely a good Sam Smith song) but one wholly inappropriate for a Bond movie. But surely this is exactly what Paul McCartney gave us, and it made #5. The only concession to "Live and Let Die" being a Bond theme is the title and a little dramatic orchestra thrown in. (Not that I can imagine a Radiohead Bond theme either.) Honestly, I don't think so. If you compare Live And Let Die with the kind of material Wings were putting out around this time (the albums Red Rose Speedway and Band On The Run were put out in the same year as this movie) then nothing on those albums sounds like this song - McCartney seems to have genuinely tried to stretch himself to fit what he's written into the Bond style. The Big Brass (tm) in-between McCartney singing "live and let die!" root this song back to the traditional Bond themes of the 60's, which were all about big brass, and the orchestration recalls those 60's themes as well without ever tipping over into parody or copying. The lyric is faintly suggestive of Solitaire's plight ("when you were young and your heart was an open book") without actually being a direct reference to it, and the "break" in the middle ("what does it matter to you...") feels like an attempt to musically reference the fact that a hefty chunk of the movie is set in the Caribbean - the setting of the movie reflected in the musical style of the song. McCartney is always at his best when he's being challenged rather than when he can coast, and the challenge of doing a Bond theme seems to have genuinely pushed him to deliver something that's a great fit as a Bond theme and well out of his at-that-time business-as-usual model.
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Post by Hachiman on Nov 12, 2018 19:58:52 GMT -5
The Bond Themes, Ranked
9. “You Only Live Twice” – Lushly-orchestrated loveliness that avoids the trap of trying to sound “Oriental” to accompany a film largely set in Japan, and dreamy, drifting vocals from Nancy Sinatra make this a captivating piece of music. It is also recycled to great effect on Robbie Williams Millennium!
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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on Nov 13, 2018 6:35:22 GMT -5
I think You Only Live Twice is the one Connery Bond I somehow haven't seen. Does having seen You Only Move Twice give me an accurate idea of the finale, though? Ok, I finally watched this last night and...what is even the point of the marriage subplot? An attempt at substituting some of the genuine pathos of the book's denouement (as Bond does marry Kissy in the book, but only after the climatic battle in Blofeld's castle) with something akin to a sightseeing tour of Japan and its customs. I'm still not entirely sure why they went so far afield of the novel's story -- rather than, say, just adapt a different novel and not completely waste the title, characters, and setting on this bizarre-ass bigger version of Dr. No.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 10:06:04 GMT -5
The Movies, Ranked
1. From Russia With Love – An obvious choice, sure, but it’s just a note-perfect thriller and the perfect example of Bond as thriller, rather than as action movie, comedy, romance etc. Connery is stunningly good, the plot is a great Cold War spy caper, and it’s shot beautifully. 2. Goldeneye – It was a tough call between this and Casino Royale, but in the end this is a smarter, leaner script. Brosnan is never better, the grudge battle works, and an excellent supporting cast flesh out a compelling post-Cold War world. 3. Casino Royale – An invigorating return to form, this is less indebted to the Bourne movies than it is the Connery ones, stripping Bond back to its basics and getting on with telling a great story. Craig immediately dispels any criticism of casting, and in Mads Mikklesen finds an excellent advisory. 4. The Spy Who Loved Me – Effortlessly the best “Bond as comedy”, Moore finally gets to fully embrace his version of the character in a movie that’s very self-aware but which never allows that self-awareness to undercut the story. Funny, charming, daffy and thoroughly lovable. 5. Goldfinger – It's Goldfinger. The titular bad guy is the best of the Connery adversaries, Honor Blackman is amazing, and the whole thing is delivered with a huge amount of panache and style. Quite irresistible. 6. Skyfall – For a movie that didn’t have to do anything more than “sum up fifty years” Skyfall manages to actually push at the boundaries of Bond with terrific results. Dench is never better (some achievement, that) and we have the best villain of the Craig era. 7. The Living Daylights – Dalton's strongest movie, finally getting stuck into Bond’s Cold War roots in a proper way, and the man himself is just brilliant. It remains a terrible shame he only got two movies, but first time out of the gate he knocks it out of the park. 8. Moonraker - Yes, Moonraker! In the top ten! A film that takes the approach of The Spy Who Loves Me and pushes it to ludicrous and frequently hilarious extremes. It makes, even by Bond standards, little literal sense, but it’s full-throated approach to the ludicrous is something to be treasured. The outer edge of what Bond can do in this mode, but what an edge. 9. License To Kill – Savage, cold and unrelenting, License To Kill is a perfect example of “Bond as ruthless killing machine” and it takes that premise to its extreme. Not the easiest of films to watch at times, but Dalton is brutally effective and he’s met by an equally implacable bad guy in Sanchez in a battle of wills. Extremely compelling. 10. Tomorrow Never Dies – As a film which is essentially the Jonathan Pryce All-You-Can-Eat Scenery Buffet there’s a lot to enjoy here. Michelle Yeoh is a simply fantastic female protagonist on Bond’s level and Stamper the best henchperson in simply ages. The film’s media-control angle is extremely prescient and means this has aged better than almost any Bond Big Villain Plan so the movie itself has matured nicely. Better now than on release. 11. The Man With The Golden Gun – Still miles better than its reputation. Christopher Lee is the stand-out here, of course, but Moore’s unusually downplayed performance is also worthy of considerable praise. It's a long way from flawless but there’s a lot to enjoy here and a real sense of the series finding its feet in all sorts of positive ways. 12. Never Say Never Again – Connery's final outing is downright charming as the Elder Statesman of the role steps back in to his most famous character one last time. Not flawless, but unquestionably entertaining, and way better than the film it’s ostensibly a remake of. Another example of a movie that’s much better than its reputation, “official” status be damned. And there are few things more fabulous than Fatima Blush’s outfit! 13. Dr No – A solid, if relatively middling, start for the series. Connery is outstanding and gets the role of Bond off to a perfect start, but the script wanders about a bit before getting to the point, and Dr No himself is disappointingly undeveloped. Still, as a series-launcher Bond had to be perfect and he absolutely is so it’s for this Dr No deserves to be appreciated. 14. The World Is Not Enough – Bond as action movie, though absolutely nothing else, The World Is Not Enough delivers the explosions and adventure, but at the expense of an interesting or coherent plot. The early expansion of M’s role is welcome, but Robert Carlyle is oddly forgettable as the main bad guy. 15. For Your Eyes Only – Muddled scripting sees Bond return to a more “realistic” mode without bothering to inform us why “realistic” is something that’s especially worthwhile for this kind of film. Moore’s getting to the point where he’s obviously not that invested any more, and though there’s some nice moments here and there and a great Julian Glover performance, there’s only a limited amount to get excited about. 16. You Only Live Twice – It could have been great. So much potential in the first two-thirds is elegantly pissed up against a wall in a rush of unexpected racism, over-the-top antics and an everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach to a finale that exchanges credibility for scale. The action is good, but it undermines all the careful lead-up, and... well, we’ve dwelled enough on the slanty-eye make-up and woman with the face of a pig, so let’s draw a veil and move on. 17. On Her Majesty’s Secret Service - The best Blofeld meets the worst Bond. This is another could-have-been-great entry but it’s let down by an overly long running time, love-by-montage, a poorly though-out plan, and a miscast Lazenby. He never really convinces as Bond, and though Diana Rigg works hard to make her and Bond seem convincing it doesn’t quite come off. The end of the movie is outright brilliant but it’s not enough to make up for the flaws of what came before it. 18. Die Another Day - I mean, it is another one that’s better than its reputation, but not by a vast margin. Frustratingly broken-backed, the first third proves Brosnan’s still got it, but much of the rest of the movie suggests nobody else does. Halle Berry’s an unexpected bright spot, but in the end her adventures as a neo-Bond seem a bit more interesting than actual-Bond, which is kind of a problem. 19. Spectre – It's got its moments but not enough of them to overcome a fundamentally flawed script, and the inclusion/return of Spectre and Blofeld is vastly unnecessary. Craig’s still great, and more Ben Wishaw is always a big plus, but this is sloppy in the extreme. 20. Thunderball – Great production values cannot in any way overcome how dull this all is. Connery’s all kinds of terrific, but in service of a boring story that’s just impossible to care about. An actively engaged female protagonist with agency stops this sinking all the way to the bottom (ho ho) but tedium wins out. 21. Quantum Of Solace - “So what’s the big evil organisation out to steal this time? Oil? Plutonium? State secrets? Technology? Weapons? Territory?” “Water.” “Really? That’s it?” 22. Diamonds Are Forever - Tatty, cheap and ersatz, there’s nearly nothing to recommend this. Connery’s clearly only in it for the money (which, to be fair, he did something worthwhile with), nobody seems to have thought anything through, and by the time we find out what the diamonds are even for most of the audience are likely to be comatose. 23. Octopussy – Somehow worse. All the same flaws as Diamonds (heh) but without the redeeming ten minutes in Amsterdam. The treatment of India is outright racist, Moore clearly does not have one single unique fuck left to give, and everything hinges on vast co-incidences while it all ends with Orlov apparently choosing suicide-by-guards. Why anyone would want to watch this is a mystery. 24. A View To A Kill – Somehow worse again. Moore now has so few fucks left to give he’s passed through into negative numbers, Patrick Mcnee is completely wasted, and when the acting styles of Grace Jones is the closest you can come to a redeeming feature then enough has been said. Oh but wait I’m wrong because it’s necessary to mention Tanya Roberts, who is out-acted by much of the scenery. More painful to watch than a knotted rope to the testicles wielded by Mads Mikklesen, and a script that creaks almost as much as the star’s joints. 25. Live And Let Die – It's still a racist piece of shit movie and I’m not giving it any quarter just because it’s a well-produced racist piece of shit movie. Fuck this film. Fuck it forever. A lot I disagree with this list, but not like in huge ways. Goldeneye - I think you have that one a bit high. I even just rewatched it over this past weekend and while I like it and it is by far the best Brosnan film, I don't know if I would consider it better than Craig's two best outings, Casino Royale and Skyfall. Still a top five for me at this point as I'm slowly going through bond movies(though not really in chronological order). Dr. No - I would put it higher. Maybe it is because I always have a thing for humble beginnings(I also really like Mad Max 1 a lot for instance), but that would easily be a top 10 film for me and what I think is Connery's 2nd best movie. There is just something so unique as it is a very stripped down Bond and just a very straightforward spy thriller. I also really like Dr. No as the villain. The World is Not Enough and Die Another Day - Just way too high for me, they are just baaaaaaad and not even enjoyably bad. Also a waste of some really good actors and budget. Sure TWINE is full on action, but none of it is particularly good, and none of the camp really lands either. Also, Denise Richards as the third biggest character in the film. Wtf.
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 13, 2018 14:55:02 GMT -5
The Bond Themes, Ranked
9. “You Only Live Twice” – Lushly-orchestrated loveliness that avoids the trap of trying to sound “Oriental” to accompany a film largely set in Japan, and dreamy, drifting vocals from Nancy Sinatra make this a captivating piece of music. It is also recycled to great effect on Robbie Williams Millennium! There are fewer songs I despise more than Millenium. As I ended my review of YOLT with - seriously. Fuck Millenium. (and Robbie Williams, who I despise equally)
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 13, 2018 16:12:15 GMT -5
Dr. No - I would put it higher. Maybe it is because I always have a thing for humble beginnings(I also really like Mad Max 1 a lot for instance), but that would easily be a top 10 film for me and what I think is Connery's 2nd best movie. There is just something so unique as it is a very stripped down Bond and just a very straightforward spy thriller. I also really like Dr. No as the villain. Whilst I do not physically have it in me, mentally or chronologically, to follow Mr. Greene's October Surprise's suggestion of a go-around, I am tempted to re-review Dr No, because I don't think I quite gave it the attention it deserved, I was still trying to be restrained in my word count (obviously not something that lasted...) and still learning the knack of getting into these movies. One of the things i should have more strongly leaned on during that review is the uncomfortable Orientalism of Dr No himself, which does knock it down a fair few points for me. Dr No himself has a barely-present "Oriental" background (essentially reduced to about two lines in the movie) and is played by a lily-white Canadian, which makes a lot of the trappings seem exceedingly suspect. Since the first two-thirds of YOLT prove its possible to have a representation of Asian cultures done well in the 60's this isn't a case of layering contemporary morality onto an old film but rather something that ought to have been clear and obvious at the time (see also the last third of YOLT, of course, and the catastrophic collapse of said representation). YMMV of course, but to me it's another strike against a movie that's already had the "three blind mice" sequence and also killed off a black character who was portrayed as being so stupid and superstitious that he's afraid of an APC with a flamethrower because he genuinely thinks it's a dragon. Race is problematic a real issue in Dr No and while there's much to commend the movie for there's certainly plenty to criticise it for as well, hence me putting it fairly middle-of-the-pack. The actual character of Dr No is potentially interesting, but he just really doesn't get enough screen-time to develop into anything so feels like a bit of a wasted chance.
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Post by Hachiman on Nov 13, 2018 19:24:56 GMT -5
It is also recycled to great effect on Robbie Williams Millennium! There are fewer songs I despise more than Millenium. As I ended my review of YOLT with - seriously. Fuck Millenium. (and Robbie Williams, who I despise equally) I sense that you feel strongly about this topic. To each their own, but I think the only way this can be resolved is with a hatesong entry! By the way, I agree that original Nancy Sinatra song is superior, but the instrumental is so great that I am surprised it isn't sampled more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 20:04:36 GMT -5
Dr. No - I would put it higher. Maybe it is because I always have a thing for humble beginnings(I also really like Mad Max 1 a lot for instance), but that would easily be a top 10 film for me and what I think is Connery's 2nd best movie. There is just something so unique as it is a very stripped down Bond and just a very straightforward spy thriller. I also really like Dr. No as the villain. Whilst I do not physically have it in me, mentally or chronologically, to follow Mr. Greene's October Surprise's suggestion of a go-around, I am tempted to re-review Dr No, because I don't think I quite gave it the attention it deserved, I was still trying to be restrained in my word count (obviously not something that lasted...) and still learning the knack of getting into these movies. One of the things i should have more strongly leaned on during that review is the uncomfortable Orientalism of Dr No himself, which does knock it down a fair few points for me. Dr No himself has a barely-present "Oriental" background (essentially reduced to about two lines in the movie) and is played by a lily-white Canadian, which makes a lot of the trappings seem exceedingly suspect. Since the first two-thirds of YOLT prove its possible to have a representation of Asian cultures done well in the 60's this isn't a case of layering contemporary morality onto an old film but rather something that ought to have been clear and obvious at the time (see also the last third of YOLT, of course, and the catastrophic collapse of said representation). YMMV of course, but to me it's another strike against a movie that's already had the "three blind mice" sequence and also killed off a black character who was portrayed as being so stupid and superstitious that he's afraid of an APC with a flamethrower because he genuinely thinks it's a dragon. Race is problematic a real issue in Dr No and while there's much to commend the movie for there's certainly plenty to criticise it for as well, hence me putting it fairly middle-of-the-pack. The actual character of Dr No is potentially interesting, but he just really doesn't get enough screen-time to develop into anything so feels like a bit of a wasted chance. Yeah, but From Russia With Love is still everyone's favorite(mine included) and it has that whole Gypsy excursion in the middle. Dr. No isn't perfect, but it is very much a product of it's own time and I still think the good parts are enough to outweigh the bad.
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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on Nov 13, 2018 20:49:50 GMT -5
Dr. No - I would put it higher. Maybe it is because I always have a thing for humble beginnings(I also really like Mad Max 1 a lot for instance), but that would easily be a top 10 film for me and what I think is Connery's 2nd best movie. There is just something so unique as it is a very stripped down Bond and just a very straightforward spy thriller. I also really like Dr. No as the villain. Whilst I do not physically have it in me, mentally or chronologically, to follow Mr. Greene's October Surprise 's suggestion of a go-around, I am tempted to re-review Dr No, because I don't think I quite gave it the attention it deserved, I was still trying to be restrained in my word count (obviously not something that lasted...) and still learning the knack of getting into these movies. One of the things i should have more strongly leaned on during that review is the uncomfortable Orientalism of Dr No himself, which does knock it down a fair few points for me. Dr No himself has a barely-present "Oriental" background (essentially reduced to about two lines in the movie) and is played by a lily-white Canadian, which makes a lot of the trappings seem exceedingly suspect. Since the first two-thirds of YOLT prove its possible to have a representation of Asian cultures done well in the 60's this isn't a case of layering contemporary morality onto an old film but rather something that ought to have been clear and obvious at the time (see also the last third of YOLT, of course, and the catastrophic collapse of said representation). YMMV of course, but to me it's another strike against a movie that's already had the "three blind mice" sequence and also killed off a black character who was portrayed as being so stupid and superstitious that he's afraid of an APC with a flamethrower because he genuinely thinks it's a dragon. Race is problematic a real issue in Dr No and while there's much to commend the movie for there's certainly plenty to criticise it for as well, hence me putting it fairly middle-of-the-pack. The actual character of Dr No is potentially interesting, but he just really doesn't get enough screen-time to develop into anything so feels like a bit of a wasted chance. Quarrel starts out incredibly strongly, though -- I love his introductory sequence, which is completely original to the film (as Bond already knew Quarrel in the books from having met him and Strangways in Live and Let Die, and Felix Leiter is actually absent from the book), where he is incredibly coy but completely in control of the conversation with Bond. And Bond gets the frustrating experience of being an outsider in Jamaica. Dr. No actually heavily toned down really racist connotations from the novel -- the entirety of Dr. No's organization, "Three Blind Mice" and all, were supposed to be staffed (with the exception of the bizarre female hotel concierges we see in No's lair) by "Chigroes" -- "Chinese Negroes". We really dodged a bullet, there, whether through makeup expenses keeping the entire Jamaican cast from getting covered in prosthetics, or through the wherewithal of a writer/production person who thought, "That's not gonna go over well" and removed it (it's still mentioned in one of the last script drafts, one I was able to view online). You Only Live Twice, on the other hand, had so many dumb decisions made during its writing and production that the only thing I can really say would've made it a better film is if they'd held off on "adapting" it into a Japan-set Dr. No and made, say, Moonraker instead, if they really wanted to go full-tilt-boogie with the Space Race backdrop. Otherwise, you're not going to get any good adaptation of that novel before you've done one of On Her Majesty's Secret Service, no matter how lavish or beautiful-looking you do make the production -- the novel stripped of its revenge throughline and any semblances of following on in continuity is just going to have to get packed to the gills with explosions and incidence to pad out the runtime.
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Post by Prole Hole on Nov 20, 2018 11:32:31 GMT -5
Whilst I do not physically have it in me, mentally or chronologically, to follow Mr. Greene's October Surprise 's suggestion of a go-around, I am tempted to re-review Dr No, because I don't think I quite gave it the attention it deserved, I was still trying to be restrained in my word count (obviously not something that lasted...) and still learning the knack of getting into these movies. One of the things i should have more strongly leaned on during that review is the uncomfortable Orientalism of Dr No himself, which does knock it down a fair few points for me. Dr No himself has a barely-present "Oriental" background (essentially reduced to about two lines in the movie) and is played by a lily-white Canadian, which makes a lot of the trappings seem exceedingly suspect. Since the first two-thirds of YOLT prove its possible to have a representation of Asian cultures done well in the 60's this isn't a case of layering contemporary morality onto an old film but rather something that ought to have been clear and obvious at the time (see also the last third of YOLT, of course, and the catastrophic collapse of said representation). YMMV of course, but to me it's another strike against a movie that's already had the "three blind mice" sequence and also killed off a black character who was portrayed as being so stupid and superstitious that he's afraid of an APC with a flamethrower because he genuinely thinks it's a dragon. Race is problematic a real issue in Dr No and while there's much to commend the movie for there's certainly plenty to criticise it for as well, hence me putting it fairly middle-of-the-pack. The actual character of Dr No is potentially interesting, but he just really doesn't get enough screen-time to develop into anything so feels like a bit of a wasted chance. Quarrel starts out incredibly strongly, though -- I love his introductory sequence, which is completely original to the film (as Bond already knew Quarrel in the books from having met him and Strangways in Live and Let Die, and Felix Leiter is actually absent from the book), where he is incredibly coy but completely in control of the conversation with Bond. And Bond gets the frustrating experience of being an outsider in Jamaica. Dr. No actually heavily toned down really racist connotations from the novel -- the entirety of Dr. No's organization, "Three Blind Mice" and all, were supposed to be staffed (with the exception of the bizarre female hotel concierges we see in No's lair) by "Chigroes" -- "Chinese Negroes". We really dodged a bullet, there, whether through makeup expenses keeping the entire Jamaican cast from getting covered in prosthetics, or through the wherewithal of a writer/production person who thought, "That's not gonna go over well" and removed it (it's still mentioned in one of the last script drafts, one I was able to view online). You Only Live Twice, on the other hand, had so many dumb decisions made during its writing and production that the only thing I can really say would've made it a better film is if they'd held off on "adapting" it into a Japan-set Dr. No and made, say, Moonraker instead, if they really wanted to go full-tilt-boogie with the Space Race backdrop. Otherwise, you're not going to get any good adaptation of that novel before you've done one of On Her Majesty's Secret Service, no matter how lavish or beautiful-looking you do make the production -- the novel stripped of its revenge throughline and any semblances of following on in continuity is just going to have to get packed to the gills with explosions and incidence to pad out the runtime. Oh yeah, Dr No the book is way more racist, but that doesn't make the film not racist. We didn't dodge a bullet, it still winged us.
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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on Nov 20, 2018 12:21:25 GMT -5
Quarrel starts out incredibly strongly, though -- I love his introductory sequence, which is completely original to the film (as Bond already knew Quarrel in the books from having met him and Strangways in Live and Let Die, and Felix Leiter is actually absent from the book), where he is incredibly coy but completely in control of the conversation with Bond. And Bond gets the frustrating experience of being an outsider in Jamaica. Dr. No actually heavily toned down really racist connotations from the novel -- the entirety of Dr. No's organization, "Three Blind Mice" and all, were supposed to be staffed (with the exception of the bizarre female hotel concierges we see in No's lair) by "Chigroes" -- "Chinese Negroes". We really dodged a bullet, there, whether through makeup expenses keeping the entire Jamaican cast from getting covered in prosthetics, or through the wherewithal of a writer/production person who thought, "That's not gonna go over well" and removed it (it's still mentioned in one of the last script drafts, one I was able to view online). You Only Live Twice, on the other hand, had so many dumb decisions made during its writing and production that the only thing I can really say would've made it a better film is if they'd held off on "adapting" it into a Japan-set Dr. No and made, say, Moonraker instead, if they really wanted to go full-tilt-boogie with the Space Race backdrop. Otherwise, you're not going to get any good adaptation of that novel before you've done one of On Her Majesty's Secret Service, no matter how lavish or beautiful-looking you do make the production -- the novel stripped of its revenge throughline and any semblances of following on in continuity is just going to have to get packed to the gills with explosions and incidence to pad out the runtime. Oh yeah, Dr No the book is way more racist, but that doesn't make the film not racist. We didn't dodge a bullet, it still winged us. They tried really fucking hard to keep the bullet from winging at all, mind you -- I can see a few ways it could be further improved (probably just through combining Quarrel and Honey Ryder, but then you've got no third-act love interest), but I'm not sure what they could've thought of, at the time, to improve it for their time. Not sure how many "Eurasian" actors there even were to choose from, in the UK, at that point -- and Wiseman is certainly a better choice than, say, Noel Coward.
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