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Post by Sanziana on Mar 6, 2018 8:11:10 GMT -5
I would love to say there is no character who's more shafted in TNG than Troi, but it's not true, Crusher gets treated even worse. TNG has many things to recommend it, but as far as treatment of their regular female characters goes it has a big failing. Troi gets... maybe three compelling stories in the whole of TNG? Crusher weighs in at two. This was thrown into very sharp relief when i was doing my Voyager reviews, because the contrast between the two is extremely stark - for all Voyager's (alleged) problems, it's an excellent show at putting its female character front and centre and actually doing interesting things (I'm thinking specifically of B'Elanna and Seven here, though not only). Troi's character is treated pitifully during TNG's run, and it's a shame because post-Face Of The Enemy Sirtis shows how great she can deliver on the role (I've mentioned this before but she's the MVP of the TNG movies as well despite fuck all screen time, and the movies are equally feeble with the way they treat the female characters). Does Crusher do anything of note in any of the movies? Troi at least gets some fun scenes in First Contact. Are we sure Crusher even appears in every one of the TNG movies? I don't remember her at all in them.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 6, 2018 8:32:10 GMT -5
Does Crusher do anything of note in any of the movies? Troi at least gets some fun scenes in First Contact. Are we sure Crusher even appears in every one of the TNG movies? I don't remember her at all in them. She...fixes Geordi's visor in Generations, maybe?
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 6, 2018 9:23:06 GMT -5
Nothing worth mentioning is what Crusher does in the films. Troi gets to hold her own against Stewart in Generations (no mean feat), she gets a bit of fun in FC, she gets to embrace the flirtier side of her character in Insurrection and she gets legitimate growth and development in Nemesis. Crusher... is certainly in those films. I guess she tries to take charge of the bridge in FC (and is then immediately undercut anyway). I'm sure I've linked to them before but I did reviews for all four TNG movies on Another Site, and really, Sirtis just shines in the movies. It takes her time, but by Season 5 of TNG she's nailed how to play the character and from then on out she's terrific. Rarely given good material, but she's able to make the character live and breathe in a way I don't really think McFadden or Crusher ever do (bless her, Gates seems simply lovely, but Sirtis is a better actor).
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 6, 2018 9:39:13 GMT -5
Nothing worth mentioning is what Crusher does in the films. Troi gets to hold her own against Stewart in Generations (no mean feat), she gets a bit of fun in FC, she gets to embrace the flirtier side of her character in Insurrection and she gets legitimate growth and development in Nemesis. Crusher... is certainly in those films. I guess she tries to take charge of the bridge in FC (and is then immediately undercut anyway). I'm sure I've linked to them before but I did reviews for all four TNG movies on Another Site, and really, Sirtis just shines in the movies. It takes her time, but by Season 5 of TNG she's nailed how to play the character and from then on out she's terrific. Rarely given good material, but she's able to make the character live and breathe in a way I don't really think McFadden or Crusher ever do (bless her, Gates seems simply lovely, but Sirtis is a better actor). Yea, it feels odd that there wasn’t a couple of “House in space” episodes thrown Crusher’s way, but I think you’re right, there just wasn’t any faith in McFadden as an actor.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 6, 2018 10:10:30 GMT -5
The thing is, as "Remember Me" proves, Beverly's kind of great when given "puzzle out what's going on" episodes, and as a scientist it feels like a great use of her character, so it's frustrating that she gets.... one other story where she's given then chance to do that? ("Suspicions" in S6) Technically I suppose you could say she gets two, what with working out how to fuck a Scottish ghost with a candle in S7, but let's not. It would be very easy to imagine her in an episode like "Parallels" (in fact I'd argue that's what "Remember Me" is).
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 6, 2018 12:04:35 GMT -5
The thing is, as "Remember Me" proves, Beverly's kind of great when given "puzzle out what's going on" episodes, and as a scientist it feels like a great use of her character, so it's frustrating that she gets.... one other story where she's given then chance to do that? ("Suspicions" in S6) Technically I suppose you could say she gets two, what with working out how to fuck a Scottish ghost with a candle in S7, but let's not. It would be very easy to imagine her in an episode like "Parallels" (in fact I'd argue that's what "Remember Me" is). Have any of the modern, more ensemble tracks really done a doctor character well, in terms of medical storylines? Bashir and Doctor were both good characters, but especially Doctor's feature ep's had more to do with him being "hologram Data".
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 6, 2018 12:24:44 GMT -5
I'd recommend something like the Season Seven Voyager episode "Critical Care" as the Doctor Doctorin'. It's a terrific episode. There's the Season Five episode "Nothing Human" (pretty good) and the Season Six episode "Life Line" (eh, not awful). He does get plenty of Doctoring to do, they're just not necessarily the episodes his "feature episodes" are built round.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Mar 6, 2018 18:42:51 GMT -5
Isn't one of the problems with doing a House in Space doctor-character-centric episode the fact that an awful lot of the medical problems that the characters run into in the Star Treks suffer more than your average episode from hinging on technobabble nonsense? Like in "Remember Me" there's some technobabble nonsense with Wesley, Geordi, and Whoeverthefuckmagicguy, but it's ancillary to the concept of "Crusher's trapped in some sort of weird other dimension where everyone is disappearing and she has to figure out what's going on," and it's more of a psychological horror story than it is a sci-fi technobabble story.
And this is also probably part of the reason why Geordi is the most poorly-written of the non-Wesley male characters, as well, right? The fact that (in addition to the fact that most of the Geordi-centric episodes are about him being creepy towards women he has a crush on, which is the main reason he's not a very good character) he's the Chief Engineer, so his role in a lot of episodes is restricted to just sitting there and spouting meaningless technobabble.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 7, 2018 0:47:17 GMT -5
^^^ Building on this, one of the things TNG excelled at was hard- flavored SF. It’s all basically magic, but it’s stuff that could be reasoned through in an interesting way and at its best leads to the audience sort of questioning about the regular flow of reality. To me that’s arguably big change from the “beam down every week” of the first and second seasons, and one of the reasons TNG seems a bit more “homey” to me than TOS, or even TNG’s own first two seasons. In TOS things are more external, the crew drops into a situation and then leaves. In there’s often some reflection back on the way we think through things—it’s a bit more introspective, and while the characters aren’t super-well defined or unique they’re still rounded enough that it usually works. Speaking of character, I’d actually say Geordi’s a bit of a two-sided character—he’s an excellent supporting character and sounding board, and there’s a real warmth to him there. It’s just when he’s put in the lead the writers don’t have any clue of what to do, and the shortcomings of TNG’s very nerdy writer’s room become more apparent. Speaking of NERRRDSSSSS!, the mood lighting on “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is totally one of Ron Moore’s “I was in the Navy [ROTC]”-isms, right? It pops up again and again, even becoming a regular feature on DS9 whenever the Defiant cloaks—as a kid I found this really funny, like the producers thought they needed to turn out the lights so no one could see them when obviously cloaks didn’t work that way before it’s just dark all the time in the command center on BSG.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 7, 2018 8:00:44 GMT -5
^^^ Building on this, one of the things TNG excelled at was hard- flavored SF. It’s all basically magic, but it’s stuff that could be reasoned through in an interesting way and at its best leads to the audience sort of questioning about the regular flow of reality. To me that’s arguably big change from the “beam down every week” of the first and second seasons, and one of the reasons TNG seems a bit more “homey” to me than TOS, or even TNG’s own first two seasons. In TOS things are more external, the crew drops into a situation and then leaves. In there’s often some reflection back on the way we think through things—it’s a bit more introspective, and while the characters aren’t super-well defined or unique they’re still rounded enough that it usually works. Speaking of character, I’d actually say Geordi’s a bit of a two-sided character—he’s an excellent supporting character and sounding board, and there’s a real warmth to him there. It’s just when he’s put in the lead the writers don’t have any clue of what to do, and the shortcomings of TNG’s very nerdy writer’s room become more apparent. Speaking of NERRRDSSSSS!, the mood lighting on “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is totally one of Ron Moore’s “I was in the Navy [ROTC]”-isms, right? It pops up again and again, even becoming a regular feature on DS9 whenever the Defiant cloaks—as a kid I found this really funny, like the producers thought they needed to turn out the lights so no one could see them when obviously cloaks didn’t work that way before it’s just dark all the time in the command center on BSG. There's no way the bridge of those ships would be that brightly lit to begin with though (other than for "It's a TV show, dummy" reasons, of course).
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 10, 2018 4:46:10 GMT -5
Speaking of NERRRDSSSSS!, the mood lighting on “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is totally one of Ron Moore’s “I was in the Navy [ROTC]”-isms, right? It pops up again and again, even becoming a regular feature on DS9 whenever the Defiant cloaks—as a kid I found this really funny, like the producers thought they needed to turn out the lights so no one could see them when obviously cloaks didn’t work that way before it’s just dark all the time in the command center on BSG. I thought it was that way because they were reducing their energy usage. The discussion on Crusher is interesting in light of the interview the Mission Log podcast just released with Gates McFadden. McFadden said that Roddenberry pitched the Crusher character to her as someone who dealt with the inherent conflict of the Prime Directive vs the Hippocratic Oath. Wow, doctors in Star Trek would have been greatly helped if this idea were used in episodes more often.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Mar 10, 2018 22:13:12 GMT -5
The discussion on Crusher is interesting in light of the interview the Mission Log podcast just released with Gates McFadden. McFadden said that Roddenberry pitched the Crusher character to her as someone who dealt with the inherent conflict of the Prime Directive vs the Hippocratic Oath. Wow, doctors in Star Trek would have been greatly helped if this idea were used in episodes more often. Is "Who Watches the Watchers" the only time a story like this happens on TNG?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 11, 2018 1:40:42 GMT -5
The discussion on Crusher is interesting in light of the interview the Mission Log podcast just released with Gates McFadden. McFadden said that Roddenberry pitched the Crusher character to her as someone who dealt with the inherent conflict of the Prime Directive vs the Hippocratic Oath. Wow, doctors in Star Trek would have been greatly helped if this idea were used in episodes more often. Is "Who Watches the Watchers" the only time a story like this happens on TNG? It was the first one I thought of. And it is not the primary conflict of that episode. I guess Pulaski's argument in "Pen Pals" is coming from this conflict. But she isn't the only character arguing this position. I think TNG was trying for something along this line for Crusher in "The High Ground" but the message got too muddled. And I suppose in a roundabout way, Crusher's actions in "Suspicions" can be coming from this. I can't think of anything else on TNG that would remotely qualify. Crusher was a weakly written character. If Gene really thought the Hippocratic Oath was in conflict with the Prime Directive, and this was the thing that made Crusher interesting, then there should have been better episodes written about this.
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Post by Jimmy James on Mar 11, 2018 9:15:24 GMT -5
The discussion on Crusher is interesting in light of the interview the Mission Log podcast just released with Gates McFadden. McFadden said that Roddenberry pitched the Crusher character to her as someone who dealt with the inherent conflict of the Prime Directive vs the Hippocratic Oath. Wow, doctors in Star Trek would have been greatly helped if this idea were used in episodes more often. Is "Who Watches the Watchers" the only time a story like this happens on TNG? I just hit "I, Borg" on my own watchthrough- not a Prime Directive situation per se, but still a case of "Crusher wants to save this sick person because that's an immediate, pressing concern, while Picard thinks about the long-term broader implications for the Federation." Which resulted in a top ten TNG episode.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 11, 2018 19:03:48 GMT -5
Is "Who Watches the Watchers" the only time a story like this happens on TNG? I just hit "I, Borg" on my own watchthrough- not a Prime Directive situation per se, but still a case of "Crusher wants to save this sick person because that's an immediate, pressing concern, while Picard thinks about the long-term broader implications for the Federation." Which resulted in a top ten TNG episode. You're right. Damn, I forgot that Crusher's actions in that one are how the Borg gets onto the ship. But, like "Who Watches the Watchers" the episode then twists into a different problem altogether, which isn't about Crusher at all. I also think S1s "Symbiosis" has some discussion between Crusher and Picard on this issue. Though, it has been a long time since I've watched that one. So, yeah, I think Gene had a good idea there. It doesn't seem the writers used this idea to its full potential.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 11, 2018 22:00:01 GMT -5
Speaking of NERRRDSSSSS!, the mood lighting on “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is totally one of Ron Moore’s “I was in the Navy [ROTC]”-isms, right? It pops up again and again, even becoming a regular feature on DS9 whenever the Defiant cloaks—as a kid I found this really funny, like the producers thought they needed to turn out the lights so no one could see them when obviously cloaks didn’t work that way before it’s just dark all the time in the command center on BSG. I thought it was that way because they were reducing their energy usage. The discussion on Crusher is interesting in light of the interview the Mission Log podcast just released with Gates McFadden. McFadden said that Roddenberry pitched the Crusher character to her as someone who dealt with the inherent conflict of the Prime Directive vs the Hippocratic Oath. Wow, doctors in Star Trek would have been greatly helped if this idea were used in episodes more often. From what I understand typically control centers with lots of screens are fairly dark so as to maximize the ease of viewing the displays. I’d think by the 24th century that wouldn’t be an issue, but it’s good mood lighting and there are always people who want Trek to be more naval. WRT TNG I think the shift from “strange new worlds and civilizations” to more conceptual puzzles and stuff involving ferrying diplomats ( with a secret!) also hurt with giving Crusher this role—prime directive stuff just didn’t pop up as often as in TOS.
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Post by liebkartoffel on Apr 2, 2018 22:45:04 GMT -5
S03E16 "The Offspring": Data creates a daughter, which is a Big Deal. Because apparently androids are a Big Deal. I've never figured out why androids are apparently so difficult to build--we routinely see the computer generate enormously sophisticated artificial intelligences, often by accident. Holo-Moriarty, for instance, is sentient, self-aware, and fully capable of experiencing emotion. And I don't really see how the mechanical side of things is tripping people up in an era were matter replication and nanotechnology are a thing. Also what the fuck is up with the contractions? Lal is technologically superior to Data because she can use contractions? That's like one extra line of code. But hey, whatever. Data builds Lal--which means "beloved" in Hindi, aww...--and Starfleet wants its grubby paws on her. It's all very "Measure of A Man: Part 2" and like most sequels it's just not as good, in no small part because we're supposed to care as deeply about a character introduced just in this episode. And of course Lal dies, because emotions melt her circuits...or something, and it's all very sad, but Data's grateful for all the memories along the way. Eh. Oh also Riker hits on Lal sight unseen because she looks like a woman but emotionally she's six years old, and it's just hilarious. Ha ha ha...Aha...Ha. Ha.
S03E17 "Sins of the Father": Ah, Kurn. You sure are...You sure do...Remember when?...Ah, Kurn. Its funny, I remember the Klingon episodes as gripping, high drama as a kid, but now I just find them kind of boring. Klingons, like basically all other Trek races, are just so relentlessly one-note, and listening to them prattle on about honor for a full hour gets pretty tedious. I always get tripped up wondering about, like, are there Klingon farmers? Theoretical physicists? Janitors? Podiatrists? Do they also growl and yell and murder each other with knives? Doesn't seem like the basis for a very stable society. So, yeah, Kurn shows up, we find out he's Worf's brother, we find out that Worf's father is innocent, and we find out that the house of Duras are all traitorous p'tagh, but Worf cant do anything because exposing the house of Duras would lead to the collapse of the Klingon Empire. (This does not seem like a very stable society). At least there's a cool back-turning scene. It's a great episode for Worf's character development, but it really needs some, well, interesting Klingon characters for Worf to play off of. I remember Gowron being a compelling figure, and the Duras sisters are at least some fun campy villains--hopefully they live up to my memory. Eh
S03E18 "Allegiance": The tried-and-true alien experimentation plot: Picard is abducted by rectangle-headed aliens, replaced with a doppelganger, and imprisoned in an escape room with a few other one-off species. I like this one, though. The writers do a good job maintaining just enough ambiguity to keep you wondering what the hell is going on. You're pretty sure escape room Picard is the real one, but doppel-Picard clearly seems to know things that only the real Picard would know, even as he pulls weird shit like leading the crew on a singalong. Ultimately the gang prevails due to Picard's powers of observation and a little human grit and ingenuity. (Again, in case you weren't aware, the running thesis of the show is that humans are at the just right level of development, between primitive savages and unknowable god-beings). Yeah
S03E19 "Captain's Holiday": So Captain Picard is even grumpier than usual and Dr. Crusher is like “you need a vacation” and Picard’s like “no.” And then Riker corners him the elevator, and Riker’s like “dude, you gotta visit this sex planet,” and Picard’s like “gross.” And then on the bridge Deanna’s all like “if you don’t go on vacation I’m going to sic my mother on you,” and Picard’s like “for fuck’s sake, fine, I’ll go on vacation.” And then Riker’s like “have I mentioned the sex planet?” and Deanna’s like “yeah, a couple of times.” And then Riker has this gets this brief look of inner realization, like “man, am I really that gross?” but that doesn’t stop him from trying to get Picard laid by manipulating him into unwittingly buying a sex idol. So Picard goes to the sex planet. Then some stuff happens with...uh...time travel, and Vash, and a Ferengi, and some sort of MacGuffin. Doesn't really matter; it's fun enough in a Trek-meets-Indiana Jones sort of way. Yeah
S03E20 "Tin Man": The gang meets Moya…er, Gomtuu. The Mayor from the Buffy joins the Enterprise to study a mysterious alien creature that lives its entire life in space, but the Romulans are hot in their tail in the race to make first contact. Naturally the Romulans fuck things up by being all belligerent and Romulan-y, but the Enterprise crew save the day through the power of love. Yeah
S03E21 "Hollow Pursuits": Hard to believe this episode being made in the Roddenberry-driven “no internal conflict, ever” era of TNG. Surprising, both for giving us a flawed, even mentally ill point-of-view crew member, and for being willing to cast the regular bridge crew in such a negative light. It’s really kind of a bold move to have all these moral paragons of kindness and inclusivity pick on the shy kid (and a not-so-subtle stand-in for TNG's audience) for not fitting in. Even Wesley gets in on it, the little shit. "Broccoli"? Really? Even your casually cruel bullying is tepid and lame. I don't know, maybe I'm projecting a bit and we're supposed to sympathize with the bridge crew as they try to deal with this incompetent weirdo, but I feel like anyone with an anxiety disorder--which, again, most of the fanbase--relates more to Barclay in this episode than to, say, Riker, who spends most of the episode acting like an unbearable prick. I definitely don't want to know what Barclay is getting up to with holo-Crusher and holo-Troi, though. Riker even brings up that recreating actual, living crew members in the holodeck is against regulations, only to be told that uh, no, it's not. Why not? That's a good question. Must Watch, if only for the chance to see Wesley dressed up a like a little fancy boy.
S03E22 "The Most Toys": Data is kidnapped by a sadistic alien irrationally obsessed with completing his collection at all costs...and the commentary on geek culture continues. Kivas Fajo--portrayed by professional "oh that guy" Saul Rubinek--is an effective, affably evil villain, but I mostly enjoy him for the way Rubinek says "bubble...gum!" like someone who's unfamiliar with the word but delighted by the concept. Nice touch. Wait...did Data try to painfully disintegrate that guy in cold blood? I know it's supposed to be a "Data's already more human than he knows" moment, but attempted murder? Yeesh. Yeah
S03E23 "Sarek": Spock's dad boards the Enterprise in order to conduct some extremely important, delicate negotiations with some whosiewhatsit aliens that we never hear from again, but then the crew starts mysteriously turning on each other and experiencing bouts of extreme emotion. Could these two events possibly be related? (Yes.) Turns out Sarek is going through some sort of Vulcan menopause wherein he's projecting powerful emotions to everyone around him. Picard finds out when he sees Sarek shed a single tear during a Mozart concert, which is the Vulcan equivalent of ripping your shirt off and weeping uncontrollably. (The "Mozart" piece that drove Sarek to tears is actually Brahms's Sextet No. 1 in B-flat Major, 2nd movement. Hope someone was fired for that blunder, etc.) I always find the Vulcans' (and Betazoids') telepathic abilities to be irritatingly ill-defined in a series that pretends to explain things with science, but at least the Picard/Sarek mind meld gave Stewart the chance to break out some ACTING! Really, that scene is genuinely riveting. Yeah
S03E24 "MĂ©nage Ă Troi": (I imagine the writer of this episode is still patting him/herself on the back from coming up with that title.) And the Ferengi transformation from legitimate threat to sniveling cartoon trolls is complete. Riker, Troi, and...(sigh) Lwaxana are captured by Daimon Tog and his gang of ne'er-do-wells. Scheming, hunching, hand-wringing, and gross ear stuff ensues. The trio are eventually rescued thanks to Picard's timely recitation of some Shakespearean sonnets, as well as the fact that Morse code is still a thing, apparently. Eh, or alternately, Yeah, if you're eager to see the origin of the "Annoyed Picard" meme. It is a funny scene.
S03E25 "Transfiguration": The Enterprise crew rescues a mysterious amnesiac alien, who immediately starts going through mysterious transformations into...*yawn*. Notable primarily for "John Doe's" (the aforementioned alien's) Bowie-as-Goblin-King-esque bulge, and not really anything else. It's not bad, and it kind of gives Crusher something to do but...*yawn*. Eh
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Apr 4, 2018 12:03:02 GMT -5
S03E21 "Hollow Pursuits": Hard to believe this episode being made in the Roddenberry-driven “no internal conflict, ever” era of TNG. Surprising, both for giving us a flawed, even mentally ill point-of-view crew member, and for being willing to cast the regular bridge crew in such a negative light. It’s really kind of a bold move to have all these moral paragons of kindness and inclusivity pick on the shy kid (and a not-so-subtle stand-in for TNG's audience) for not fitting in. Even Wesley gets in on it, the little shit. "Broccoli"? Really? Even your casually cruel bullying is tepid and lame. I don't know, maybe I'm projecting a bit and we're supposed to sympathize with the bridge crew as they try to deal with this incompetent weirdo, but I feel like anyone with an anxiety disorder--which, again, most of the fanbase--relates more to Barclay in this episode than to, say, Riker, who spends most of the episode acting like an unbearable prick. I definitely don't want to know what Barclay is getting up to with holo-Crusher and holo-Troi, though. Riker even brings up that recreating actual, living crew members in the holodeck is against regulations, only to be told that uh, no, it's not. Why not? That's a good question. Must Watch, if only for the chance to see Wesley dressed up a like a little fancy boy. It's my boy Lt. Broccoli, aw yeah. Patrick Stewart's face when he calls him Broccoli is the best.
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Post by Jimmy James on Apr 4, 2018 13:46:04 GMT -5
S03E16 "The Offspring": Data creates a daughter, which is a Big Deal. Because apparently androids are a Big Deal. I've never figured out why androids are apparently so difficult to build--we routinely see the computer generate enormously sophisticated artificial intelligences, often by accident. Holo-Moriarty, for instance, is sentient, self-aware, and fully capable of experiencing emotion. And I don't really see how the mechanical side of things is tripping people up in an era were matter replication and nanotechnology are a thing. Also what the fuck is up with the contractions? Lal is technologically superior to Data because she can use contractions? That's like one extra line of code. But hey, whatever. Data builds Lal--which means "beloved" in Hindi, aww...--and Starfleet wants its grubby paws on her. It's all very "Measure of A Man: Part 2" and like most sequels it's just not as good, in no small part because we're supposed to care as deeply about a character introduced just in this episode. And of course Lal dies, because emotions melt her circuits...or something, and it's all very sad, but Data's grateful for all the memories along the way. Eh. Oh also Riker hits on Lal sight unseen because she looks like a woman but emotionally she's six years old, and it's just hilarious. Ha ha ha...Aha...Ha. Ha. Androids are weird in Trek, because while Data is a Big Deal, he also appears less advanced than several androids encountered by Kirk et al in "What Are Little Girls made Of?" or "Mudd's Women". This is also a good opportunity to butt in with a head canon of mine about the computer generating sophisticated artificial intelligences, namely that I like to believe this isn't standard Federation issue but a result of the Bynars's computer upgrades back in "11001001". Just as it made Minuet for Riker, it's able to make a fully-realized being for Pulaski on command in "Elementary, Dear Data". (Yes, Riker was unable to bring her forth again on the holodeck at the end of that episode, but that could just be because she didn't want to see him than because every single thing about the ship's computer had been reverted to factory settings.) You could even view these as avatars of a ship-wide intelligence that's growing over the course of the series before finally maturing in season seven's "Emergence". While there's the obvious conclusion of "Encounter at Farpoint" in "All Good Things...", I like to find little connections like this, where episodes in the final season represent a closure of something they thought of in the first season- "11001001" versus "Emergence", but also the Traveler's interest in Wesley Crusher from "Where No One Has Gone Before" wrapping up in "Journey's End". "Bloodlines" wraps up Picard's story with Daimon Bok from "The Battle". There are also a couple between seasons two and six- "Elementary, Dear Data" versus "Ship in a Bottle", or Picard's heart operation (the B-plot in "Samaritan Snare") getting a follow-up in "Tapestry". Taking this to its absurd conclusion, there's probably some episode in the middle of season four that serves as the point about which the series is mirrored backward / forward- either "Devil's Due"/"Clues" as the midpoint of the season or "First Contact"/"Galaxy's Child" as episodes 89 & 90 of 178.
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Post by Prole Hole on Apr 5, 2018 8:41:44 GMT -5
This is also a good opportunity to butt in with a head canon of mine about the computer generating sophisticated artificial intelligences, namely that I like to believe this isn't standard Federation issue but a result of the Bynars's computer upgrades back in "11001001". This is essentially my headcanon/fanwank for the Doctor attaining sentience in Voyager as well - it's not something which could happen to any hologram, but he goes through a specific series of events (specifically in the episodes "Projections", "The Swarm" and "Latent Image") which fundamentally alter who he is and how he works, leading to an emergent intelligence. Data's status is strange because for some reason they don't just pick a side and go with it. Fine, we know there are lots of contradictions between TOS and TNG, and I'm not particularly fussed by Mudd's androids being at an apparently similar/better level than Data, but then we keep meetings exceptions to the rule in TNG without any explanation or (more importantly) investigation. Data's unique! Wait, unless you count Lal! Or Moriarty! Or Lore! Or *shudder* B-4! Or, uh, the Enterprise, kind of! But he's still definitely unique! If we say it often enough you're bound to believe it! If there was one episode where they asked a "why" rather than showing us a "what" it would solve or at least help to address the issue, but it never happens. Weird indeed.
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Apr 5, 2018 10:59:23 GMT -5
Mudd's androids aren't very advanced if they can be destroyed by saying illogical things to them.
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Post by Jimmy James on Apr 5, 2018 13:26:08 GMT -5
Mudd's androids aren't very advanced if they can be destroyed by saying illogical things to them. True, it was only later that they invented paradox-absorbing crumple zones. That, along with examples from "Return to Tomorrow" and "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" represent android technology from an advanced earlier race, so you could say that this technology was new for humans when Dr. Soong developed it.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Apr 16, 2018 14:54:32 GMT -5
^^^ And having access to something certainly isn’t the same as being able to take it apart, put it back together again, make it work, and then make your own. Of course Trek also has big problems with self-awareness/the artificial intelligence and such, usually treating it as “once the computer’s powerful enough, it emerges” which isn’t too unusual a trope (and a very American trope too), but probably not how it would actually work. There’s often some corollary of requiring significant experience, like Prole Hole’s theory with the Doctor (and I’m also inclined to think of him as a one-off—I have trouble thinking that after Data they are blithe about reprogramming them for scrubbing or whatever—maybe it’s wasted potential, but the Doctor required a fair amount of upkeep and upgrading—like when they merged him with his tech manual hologram—to keep running), and also with the Enterprise-D in “Emergence” (which I recall being pretty weird with the Enterprise essentially becoming “alive” but in a very alien sort way, to its credit—I’ll have to rewatch it and see), though that also falls into “so much computational power it starts to become self-aware in a human way,” kind of.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Apr 23, 2018 12:14:01 GMT -5
I also think S1s "Symbiosis" has some discussion between Crusher and Picard on this issue. Though, it has been a long time since I've watched that one. So, yeah, I think Gene had a good idea there. It doesn't seem the writers used this idea to its full potential. I actually ended up watching “Symbiosis” last night, prompted by this, and it’s surprisingly better than I remembered, largely because all I remembered was Tasha’s little explanation to Wesley about drugs, which was a lot shorter than I remembered and actually not bad at all, at least on Tasha’s part—Wesley remains super-lame (though I’ve heard people voice his shitty “who’d be dumb enough to get addicted” IRL, but damn stuff like this reminds you that making Wes a total fuck-up at the Academy was 100% the right choice). By this point in the first season they’ve mostly got into the rhythm of things (even with Yar, who behaves like an actual professional) and the story moves along nicely—“surprisingly better than I remembered” is kind of my default reaction to a TNG episode and I was surprised to get that reaction in the first season. The guests are great, Merritt Buttrick’s does a good job with what he’s given (and his death from AIDS adds an extra sadness to his story—it’s striking how similar Joachim from TWOK looks and how much older Buttrick does, even taking into account how grizzled his makeup is). But the Prime Directive stuff is not great because the audience’s sympathy is so loaded to Crusher, and Picard’s excuses for non-interference are so lame. It makes it kind of satisfying in the end when he [30 year-old spoilers ahoy!] ends up doubling down on the Prime Directive in a way that allows him to follow the letter even better while letting him do a Kirk-like “well, we interfered to let them progress” way in practice , but the trip there is kind of contrived, and the episode really only works on how good the TNG procedural-esque bones of the story and the fact that no one’s half-assing it.
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