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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jul 21, 2021 20:29:53 GMT -5
Almost done reading fellowship with the kid and he’s got lots of questions I’m not really sure on. Like, what exactly do the rest of the rings do beyond “be powerful”? How/why is Galadriel’s ring the thing allowing those Elves to stay in Middle Earth? Etc.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 21, 2021 23:00:54 GMT -5
Each of the three Elven rings did something different, I believe. I know Galadriel's ring is called Nenya. That ring is used for concealment. Galadriel used the power of that ring to create Lothlorien. Her ring is what conceals the city and gives it its magical power. However, its power faded after the One Ring was destroyed, which is why Lothlorien became less hidden and less magical over time. I don't think it was specifically the thing keeping the Elves in Middle Earth, though.
Edited to add: I also know that the ring Gandalf has is supposed to inspire others to resist despair, basically to inspire hope and passion and a desire to overthrow oppression. I think this is either stated or implied directly in LOTR? (Though, this might be in Two Towers or Return of the King, given Gandalf's role in those books which is essentially to rally the troops.)
I don't remember what the ring does that Elrond has. I don't recall that specifically being mentioned in LOTR or in the Silmarillion. Though, goodness knows, The Silmarillion has a ton of detail in it that I will never remember.
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Post by The Sensational She-Hulk on Jul 22, 2021 8:39:47 GMT -5
Elrond's ring is the most powerful of the Three, but its power is never explicitly stated. The Silmarillion talks about how the Three Rings were forged to heal and preserve, and Elrond summons the torrent of water when the Nazgûl come to Rivendell. He also has the ability to see into the future. The latter two may just be his natural gifts, though.
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Invisible Goat
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Post by Invisible Goat on Jul 22, 2021 9:37:34 GMT -5
Almost done reading fellowship with the kid and he’s got lots of questions I’m not really sure on. Like, what exactly do the rest of the rings do beyond “be powerful”? How/why is Galadriel’s ring the thing allowing those Elves to stay in Middle Earth? Etc. For as much of a dork I am I'm not always 100% clear on shit like this, but I don't think the ring is "allowing" them to remain there at all. Galadriel specifically is the oldest elf in Middle Earth at the time and came there as part of a rebellion against the Valar and a desire to rule a kingdom of her own. After ~6500 years of doing that and fighting almost constantly against Morgoth and Sauron she and the others are weary and ready to leave. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jul 22, 2021 10:01:33 GMT -5
Oh ok, Owl Jr. and I were both confused after Galadriel's conversation with Frodo, which (to me) implied that Frodo destroying the One Ring would lead to Galadriel's ring diminishing in power would lead to the elves having to abandon Lothlorien. The idea that her ring's powers are concerned with concealment clears that up though. It makes sense that if they were no longer able to keep it as something of a sanctuary they would just decide it was time to leave.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jul 22, 2021 11:12:46 GMT -5
Almost done reading fellowship with the kid and he’s got lots of questions I’m not really sure on. Like, what exactly do the rest of the rings do beyond “be powerful”? How/why is Galadriel’s ring the thing allowing those Elves to stay in Middle Earth? Etc. For as much of a dork I am I'm not always 100% clear on shit like this, but I don't think the ring is "allowing" them to remain there at all. Galadriel specifically is the oldest elf in Middle Earth at the time and came there as part of a rebellion against the Valar and a desire to rule a kingdom of her own. After ~6500 years of doing that and fighting almost constantly against Morgoth and Sauron she and the others are weary and ready to leave. Why did Galadriel hate the Valar so much? |
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Invisible Goat
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Post by Invisible Goat on Jul 22, 2021 11:28:21 GMT -5
For as much of a dork I am I'm not always 100% clear on shit like this, but I don't think the ring is "allowing" them to remain there at all. Galadriel specifically is the oldest elf in Middle Earth at the time and came there as part of a rebellion against the Valar and a desire to rule a kingdom of her own. After ~6500 years of doing that and fighting almost constantly against Morgoth and Sauron she and the others are weary and ready to leave. Why did Galadriel hate the Valar so much? She wasn't really a ringleader at the time. The leader of the exiled was this guy Feanor who was an angry prick who forged the 3 Silmarils, basically the greatest and most beautiful works to ever exist. A long chain of events ended up with the Valar asking him to destroy them/hand them over and it was the last straw for him after a period of tensions, so he left for Middle-earth and many of his people including Galadriel followed. |
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jul 22, 2021 18:46:15 GMT -5
In LotR’s conception of reality, people have varying degrees of “power” in some nebulously defined sense; power being meant as the ability to effectively exert their will and reshape reality. This is connected to Arda’s essential ontology in which existence is sung into being by Eru et al.; the more powerful someone is, the more they’re able to make things come into reality by force of will. Sub-divine beings have lesser degrees of this “sub-creative” ability, which can take the shape of changing physical reality or affecting people’s minds. See for example Aragorn and friends feeling continually pushed back on by Saruman as they run across Rohan, or Sam’s vision of himself turning Gorgoroth into a garden with a word.
The function of the rings is to somehow focus and amplify this power. They were made in differing ways and supported different uses of power; the dwarf rings were made to be used to make jewelry for example. The pure rings that Sauron didn’t touch do so purely; they are not for dominion over others, but rather for the beautification of the world, which is what Eru gave creatures this power for in the first place. To add counterpoint and harmony to the song of creation, in Tolkien’s metaphor. But Sauron, like Morgoth, wants not to join the song but to rewrite the song. They want to use their power to dominate, to make creation serve them at the expense of its beauty. And so Sauron’s rings turn everything toward corruption and dominion; whatever intentions you bring to them, using them to heighten your power will always eventually make the “music” you create dissonant and selfish.
But even aside from Sauron the exercise of power always carries the temptation to selfishness and domination. Most of the Silmarillion is about how the elves struggle to keep the creation of beautiful things separate from pride and infighting.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jul 22, 2021 18:50:54 GMT -5
Almost done reading fellowship with the kid and he’s got lots of questions I’m not really sure on. Like, what exactly do the rest of the rings do beyond “be powerful”? How/why is Galadriel’s ring the thing allowing those Elves to stay in Middle Earth? Etc. For as much of a dork I am I'm not always 100% clear on shit like this, but I don't think the ring is "allowing" them to remain there at all. Galadriel specifically is the oldest elf in Middle Earth at the time and came there as part of a rebellion against the Valar and a desire to rule a kingdom of her own. After ~6500 years of doing that and fighting almost constantly against Morgoth and Sauron she and the others are weary and ready to leave. Ya, it’s more like being in Arda is sort of a drag, and what makes staying there worth it to them is the beauty of the things they’ve made. If the Ring is destroyed, the things made using the three rings will begin to fade and decay, which will make staying in Arda no longer bearable. |
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LazBro
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Post by LazBro on Jul 23, 2021 7:47:58 GMT -5
I don't believe he's addressed any of the questions asked here in the videos I've seen, so this is more general recommendation. Any time you see a video with Cory Olsen, "The Tolkien Professor," on YouTube, you should watch it. Knows his stuff, obviously, but it's more the glee and humility he takes in answering questions. He's somehow the world's biggest Tolkien nerd while remaining affable and not at all insufferable.
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jul 23, 2021 15:44:35 GMT -5
I don't personally have anything to add, but I figured here was a good spot to share this interview, wherein Viggo Mortensen reveals himself to be a genuine LOTR dork. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 23, 2021 17:10:41 GMT -5
Oh ok, Owl Jr. and I were both confused after Galadriel's conversation with Frodo, which (to me) implied that Frodo destroying the One Ring would lead to Galadriel's ring diminishing in power would lead to the elves having to abandon Lothlorien. The idea that her ring's powers are concerned with concealment clears that up though. It makes sense that if they were no longer able to keep it as something of a sanctuary they would just decide it was time to leave.
Yes, if Frodo destroys the One Ring that Galadriel's ring will diminish in power. All of the rings (9 given to Men, 7 to Dwarves, 3 to Elves) have their power in some way derived from the One Ring. Even the 3 Elf rings that weren't actually made by Sauron. I don't believe Tolkein really explains this, but it is definitely said, more than once, that all 3 of the Elf rings will diminish in power once the One Ring is destroyed. So, no doubt Galadriel knew this, and knew that she would no longer be able to power the magic of Lothlorien once the One Ring was destroyed. A lot of the magic that is essentially holding that place together will fade.
Although, it is true in general, that even before this, many of the Elves are leaving Middle Earth, as we see fairly early in Fellowship. It gets exhausting fighting Morgoth and Sauron for century after century, I guess?
My university Honors College offered a course in LOTR during my sophomore year. My roommate took it, but I did not. She'd probably be able to remember a lot more than I do.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jul 23, 2021 21:46:58 GMT -5
I don't personally have anything to add, but I figured here was a good spot to share this interview, wherein Viggo Mortensen reveals himself to be a genuine LOTR dork. Rosie and I just read the Ghan-Buri-Ghan chapter. My favorite part is when Eomer is like “how can we trust your assessment of the army on the road to Minas Tirith?” and Ghan says “I can count, dumbass, you have 6,000 riders.” Ultimately though bringing Ghan in would be challenging not just because it’s a whole extra set of characters but because you also have to explain why they need him - you have to replace the east to understand “sauron’s army is attacking Minas Tirith!” with the more complex “Sauron’s armies are attacking a whole bunch of places and one of them is in the way between Rohan and Minas Tirith.” |
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Post by Angry Raisins on Aug 2, 2021 15:09:21 GMT -5
Oh ok, Owl Jr. and I were both confused after Galadriel's conversation with Frodo, which (to me) implied that Frodo destroying the One Ring would lead to Galadriel's ring diminishing in power would lead to the elves having to abandon Lothlorien. The idea that her ring's powers are concerned with concealment clears that up though. It makes sense that if they were no longer able to keep it as something of a sanctuary they would just decide it was time to leave.
Yes, if Frodo destroys the One Ring that Galadriel's ring will diminish in power. All of the rings (9 given to Men, 7 to Dwarves, 3 to Elves) have their power in some way derived from the One Ring. Even the 3 Elf rings that weren't actually made by Sauron. I don't believe Tolkein really explains this, but it is definitely said, more than once, that all 3 of the Elf rings will diminish in power once the One Ring is destroyed. So, no doubt Galadriel knew this, and knew that she would no longer be able to power the magic of Lothlorien once the One Ring was destroyed. A lot of the magic that is essentially holding that place together will fade.
Although, it is true in general, that even before this, many of the Elves are leaving Middle Earth, as we see fairly early in Fellowship. It gets exhausting fighting Morgoth and Sauron for century after century, I guess?
My university Honors College offered a course in LOTR during my sophomore year. My roommate took it, but I did not. She'd probably be able to remember a lot more than I do.
Yes - the elven rings aren't evil, nor made by Sauron, but they're still tied to the One Ring (because that was what it was made to do), and Sauron with the Ring could have perceived the elven rings' wearers' thoughts and at least tried to dominate them, had the wearers at the time not realised and taken their rings off. Certainly Nenya is what helps preserve Lothlorien against both decay and more direct attacks (it was attacked during the War of the Ring, but I believe Tolkien said only Sauron in person could have broken down its defences), and similarly it seems very likely that Elrond's ring was doing the same for Rivendell.
It's one of the things that makes LOTR so interestingly bittersweet - the Ring has to be destroyed, and doing so is a victory, but it also means essentially destroying much of what's left of the world's "magic" - the elves will leave, the dwarves will withdraw, and the blander Age of Men will follow. Reading the history (either in the LOTR appendices or the Silmarillion) does put into perspective what can sometimes seem like rather callous aloofness by the Middle Earth elves - their heyday and their mightiest battles are long past, and those who remain in Middle Earth in LOTR's times are more like a small stubborn remnant who know leaving is nonetheless inevitable. A sort of Steve Rogers - they're on the side of good and they'll stand up for it if they must, but deep down they feel that they've fought their war(s) and this isn't their time and place any more.
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