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Post by sarapen on Sept 5, 2023 17:39:11 GMT -5
So how are we all feeling about Amazon's Wheel of Time show? I realize we're already on season 2 but if you've got thoughts about season 1 then feel free to dish. I'm tagging HipsterDBag because I know you're not usually on the TV board. For me, I think I like season 2 more than the first one. I'm glad we've gotten past book 1 now since I think it's probably the weakest of the first 6 books (before the dreaded slog, when Robert Jordan spent like 4 books describing the same 2 week span from different perspectives, plus he fucked around spending too much time on stuff he sucks at such as internecine political conflict instead of stuff that he's good at such as epic military and magical battles). But I digress. I used to reread the books every time a new one came out so I've read the first bunch a lot of times by now. I mention that because every time I'd have trouble getting through the beginning of book 1. It's a deliberate Tolkien retread of Frodo in the Shire and I just really did not care about what some farmers in Buttfuck, Nowhere were doing. The few bits I found interesting were the hints that this wasn't a standard fantasy pseudo-medieval world (mostly these are garbled legends about the 20th century). After that it was fine, but still not a slam dunk. I had the good fortune to start reading the series when the first bunch of books were already out so I could just immediately get to the good stuff. Anyway, we're past book 1 now, so things should be picking up. And let me just say there's been a noticeable increase in quality. It helps that the characters and setting have all been introduced now so we're no longer inundated by fantasy gibberish every 2 minutes. I think the pacing has also improved, but I especially liked the costumes more. One thing I don't like is Logain. I'm not fond of his actor's portrayal of madness. I find it a bit too stereotypical. I'm also not fond of the makeup for Loial but I like everything else about his character. I do like the casting for Elayne. She's unthinkingly privileged in her worldview but not maliciously prejudiced, plus you can better see the earnest dweeb who tries to be cool. Also her knack for tinkering with the One Power is introduced better in the show with the beer brewing (I think in the books her talent may have actually been introduced between books, as in suddenly she knows how to make stuff, possibly because Jordan just remembered that everyone else in the gang has a special thing except for her). Anyway, I don't have time to do recaps but if anyone else wants to do them I'd gladly read your take. |
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Post by HipsterDBag on Sept 7, 2023 13:03:38 GMT -5
I was lukewarm on Season 2 until the third episode. Just felt like it was getting a little too sprawling for a tv show (which is obviously one of the main aspects of the books, for better and worse). I legitimately don't know what they're doing with Moirraine. The changes to Rand's plotline make sense and are very defensible; I love the actress they picked for Elayne. I'm assuming that Liandrin's thing with Min is going to lead to Min and Mat getting captured by the Seanchan, so I can kind of figure out where they're going with the changes to everybody's plotlines except Moirraine.
My favorite tiny detail so far: the Seanchan accent in the books was always very difficult to try to emulate, and Kate Reading and Michael Kramer (who read the audiobooks) had an extremely hard time with it, but I love that the show went with Robert Jordan's insistence that it's just a straight Texas drawl.
There were two, in my view, "mistakes" in the series that bugged me, and they "fixed" one of them immediately in this season. In A Memory of Light, Min comes as a messenger to the Seanchan Empress and Mat comes to her defense to explain her visions, and they act very chummy with each other... but before that point in the book series, Min and Mat had never spoken to each other. They'd never appeared "onscreen" at the same time in the books at all. They'd only been in the same physical place twice in the entire series, for a cumulative total of a handful of hours. Once was in Baerlon near the beginning of The Eye of the World (when Min was too busy being overwhelmed by meeting the man she'd fall in love with to more than glance at Mat); the other was in Falme after the end of the The Great Hunt - and it's made clear that Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Verin, and Hurin leave immediately for Tar Valon that very day, so there wasn't much time for Mat and Min (who was literally physically attached to Rand at the time) to have struck up a friendship. There's no other point in the series where they're ever in the same place at the same time. Min gets to Tar Valon in the beginning of A Shadow Rising about six weeks after Mat and Tom leave it in The Dragon Reborn. Min leaves Salidar with the rebel Aes Sedai delegation about two months before Rand brings Mat to Salidar, and Min gets to Caemlyn with the embassy literally the exact same day Rand sends Mat from Tear to Salidar. For the rest of the series, Min is with Rand basically the whole time, and Rand and Mat only meet one more time - in Ebou Dar towards the beginning of A Memory of Light, when Rand convinces Tuon to join the Dragon's Peace. So at the moment Min and Mat met in A Memory of Light, Mat would have recognized Min (from the visions he had whenever he thought of Rand) but would have had no reason to know about Min's viewings. Min should barely have recognized Mat at all. But they start chatting like they're old friends. It's always slightly bugged me. (The other mistake is a viewing which seems to have just been forgotten, of Carlinya becoming property of the Seanchan, when Min sees a Raven tattoo settle in to her shoulder, which just never happens before Carlinya is killed; it was retconned by one of Sanderson's editors as meaning that she would be killed by agents of the shadow, but that's not very satisfying).
Elayne's special thing being ter'angreal making came up pretty quickly, actually, with the dream ter'angreal in A Shadow Rising. The real out-of-nowhere talent was Aviendha being able to determine the use of unknown ter'angreal which just popped up seeming fully formed with no presage in... I want to say Winter's Heart, although it's possible it was Path of Daggers.
I have read the books... way too many times to count. I started reading the series after A Crown of Swords came out, read it twice before Path of Daggers, read it again before every new book came out, and have read it at least three full times since A Memory of Light was published. But the real connection I had to it came up right after I got out of school in 2004-2005, and was too depressed to find work. At one point I was living in my car for a while. At that point the most recent release was Crossroads fo Twilight. I had the paperbooks for the whole series in my car, and I just read them over and over, all day long, for months on end. Got to the point where I'd basically memorized every aspect of them. And as a result, to this day, the books feel like a warm cozy blanket, something lovely to curl up with on a cool fall evening.
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Post by nowimnothing on Sept 8, 2023 15:13:57 GMT -5
I don't know that one episode could cure my lukewarm feelings toward the show, but episode 3 came pretty close. All of the sudden, things are starting to snap into place. Liandrin is sending people to Falme. Lanfear is moonstruck and Perrin finally meets Hopper. I am not too proud to admit that the vision of Hopper has me tearing up.
Not sure I like the Forsaken having a Wolverine healing factor. Or the apparent shifting of Lan's story from what? book 6? to now?
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Post by sarapen on Sept 8, 2023 20:49:45 GMT -5
I was lukewarm on Season 2 until the third episode. Just felt like it was getting a little too sprawling for a tv show (which is obviously one of the main aspects of the books, for better and worse). I legitimately don't know what they're doing with Moirraine. The changes to Rand's plotline make sense and are very defensible; I love the actress they picked for Elayne. I'm assuming that Liandrin's thing with Min is going to lead to Min and Mat getting captured by the Seanchan, so I can kind of figure out where they're going with the changes to everybody's plotlines except Moirraine. My favorite tiny detail so far: the Seanchan accent in the books was always very difficult to try to emulate, and Kate Reading and Michael Kramer (who read the audiobooks) had an extremely hard time with it, but I love that the show went with Robert Jordan's insistence that it's just a straight Texas drawl. There were two, in my view, "mistakes" in the series that bugged me, and they "fixed" one of them immediately in this season. In A Memory of Light, Min comes as a messenger to the Seanchan Empress and Mat comes to her defense to explain her visions, and they act very chummy with each other... but before that point in the book series, Min and Mat had never spoken to each other. They'd never appeared "onscreen" at the same time in the books at all. They'd only been in the same physical place twice in the entire series, for a cumulative total of a handful of hours. Once was in Baerlon near the beginning of The Eye of the World (when Min was too busy being overwhelmed by meeting the man she'd fall in love with to more than glance at Mat); the other was in Falme after the end of the The Great Hunt - and it's made clear that Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Verin, and Hurin leave immediately for Tar Valon that very day, so there wasn't much time for Mat and Min (who was literally physically attached to Rand at the time) to have struck up a friendship. There's no other point in the series where they're ever in the same place at the same time. Min gets to Tar Valon in the beginning of A Shadow Rising about six weeks after Mat and Tom leave it in The Dragon Reborn. Min leaves Salidar with the rebel Aes Sedai delegation about two months before Rand brings Mat to Salidar, and Min gets to Caemlyn with the embassy literally the exact same day Rand sends Mat from Tear to Salidar. For the rest of the series, Min is with Rand basically the whole time, and Rand and Mat only meet one more time - in Ebou Dar towards the beginning of A Memory of Light, when Rand convinces Tuon to join the Dragon's Peace. So at the moment Min and Mat met in A Memory of Light, Mat would have recognized Min (from the visions he had whenever he thought of Rand) but would have had no reason to know about Min's viewings. Min should barely have recognized Mat at all. But they start chatting like they're old friends. It's always slightly bugged me. (The other mistake is a viewing which seems to have just been forgotten, of Carlinya becoming property of the Seanchan, when Min sees a Raven tattoo settle in to her shoulder, which just never happens before Carlinya is killed; it was retconned by one of Sanderson's editors as meaning that she would be killed by agents of the shadow, but that's not very satisfying). Elayne's special thing being ter'angreal making came up pretty quickly, actually, with the dream ter'angreal in A Shadow Rising. The real out-of-nowhere talent was Aviendha being able to determine the use of unknown ter'angreal which just popped up seeming fully formed with no presage in... I want to say Winter's Heart, although it's possible it was Path of Daggers. I have read the books... way too many times to count. I started reading the series after A Crown of Swords came out, read it twice before Path of Daggers, read it again before every new book came out, and have read it at least three full times since A Memory of Light was published. But the real connection I had to it came up right after I got out of school in 2004-2005, and was too depressed to find work. At one point I was living in my car for a while. At that point the most recent release was Crossroads fo Twilight. I had the paperbooks for the whole series in my car, and I just read them over and over, all day long, for months on end. Got to the point where I'd basically memorized every aspect of them. And as a result, to this day, the books feel like a warm cozy blanket, something lovely to curl up with on a cool fall evening. Oh, did Min and Mat never meet? I never noticed, but I'd taken a long break from the series before finally going to the Sanderson books. I guess I just assumed they knew each other. Also I forgot Elayne copied the rings for everyone. By the way, Rosamund Pike has redone the first three audiobooks and people are saying she did better with the Seanchan accents. I don't know that one episode could cure my lukewarm feelings toward the show, but episode 3 came pretty close. All of the sudden, things are starting to snap into place. Liandrin is sending people to Falme. Lanfear is moonstruck and Perrin finally meets Hopper. I am not too proud to admit that the vision of Hopper has me tearing up. Not sure I like the Forsaken having a Wolverine healing factor. Or the apparent shifting of Lan's story from what? book 6? to now? The Forsaken thing was cute if you knew what was going on, I was wondering how long it was going to go. Definitely a better reveal than the books. I wonder how complete newbies took it? Anyway, one thing I've noticed is that all the dresses have pockets, even the ones the Tower novices wear. A small detail but it's of a piece with the whole female empowerment thing the show is doing. |
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Sept 10, 2023 19:22:43 GMT -5
I have far less complete thoughts since I only ever made it to book 10 or 11, and that was 20 years ago now last time I read any of them. But I am enjoying the show, and everyone in it so far.
I probably mentioned this in the first season, but I absolutely adore the complete mix of racial backgrounds for everyone, not just the main characters but the entire cast.
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Post by nowimnothing on Sept 11, 2023 9:58:14 GMT -5
I have far less complete thoughts since I only ever made it to book 10 or 11, and that was 20 years ago now last time I read any of them. But I am enjoying the show, and everyone in it so far. I probably mentioned this in the first season, but I absolutely adore the complete mix of racial backgrounds for everyone, not just the main characters but the entire cast. I just wish it was a bit more consistent. All of the Two Rivers should have dark skin and hair with Rand standing out like an Irishman in India. The last three books by Sanderson are worth checking out. He really gets things moving. You could always check out the WOT reread to get you up to speed: www.tor.com/series/wot-reread/ |
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Post by sarapen on Sept 11, 2023 13:20:45 GMT -5
They're probably cutting down the Forsaken from 13 to 8, right? 13 is way too many antagonists for like 5 seasons, plus like the first half of the series was just them getting picked off one by one. Also some of them went out like chumps. Anyway, apparently there were only 8 Forsaken idols in that one scene from season 1. That's enough to keep a couple of the chump deaths without making it hard for TV viewers to keep track.
Also I remember reading a while back that they're hoping to get 8 seasons out of the series. We'll see if they get there.
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Sept 11, 2023 13:27:26 GMT -5
They're probably cutting down the Forsaken from 13 to 8, right? 13 is way too many antagonists for like 5 seasons, plus like the first half of the series was just them getting picked off one by one. Also some of them went out like chumps. Anyway, apparently there were only 8 Forsaken idols in that one scene from season 1. That's enough to keep a couple of the chump deaths without making it hard for TV viewers to keep track. Also I remember reading a while back that they're hoping to get 8 seasons out of the series. We'll see if they get there. This would be 100% fine for me. One of the complaints I had about the books was the Forsaken constantly being reborn into new bodies and not only having to remember which ones had that happen, but also the new characters/ bodies' names. |
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Post by sarapen on Sept 16, 2023 11:26:41 GMT -5
Oh boy this is maybe the most book-like Wheel of Time episode so far. So many iconic book things were on screen. I think it's the best episode so far, not simply because of the book stuff but because it's the episode which I think is just good TV. I know it's Hollywood so we're not supposed to think about it but good god how many concussions have the girls had by now?
Also, I guess we're almost definitely dropping some of the Forsaken because Lanfear didn't mention them. Too bad, I liked the backstory for the one where she joined the Dark because she was denied tenure.
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Sept 16, 2023 14:36:18 GMT -5
Oh boy this is maybe the most book-like Wheel of Time episode so far. So many iconic book things were on screen. I think it's the best episode so far, not simply because of the book stuff but because it's the episode which I think is just good TV. I know it's Hollywood so we're not supposed to think about it but good god how many concussions have the girls had by now? Also, I guess we're almost definitely dropping some of the Forsaken because Lanfear didn't mention them. Too bad, I liked the backstory for the one where she joined the Dark because she was denied tenure. That one was great, yes! Way to move the story forward, bring in more characters ( Aviendha, woo! And Dain Bornhald too ) and keep everything moving well. |
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Post by nowimnothing on Sept 16, 2023 16:29:02 GMT -5
I assume we are being as spoilery as the Star Wars thread?
I will really miss Gaul, but I don't mind combining him with Aviendha. Merging Verin and Vandene is ok as well. It is interesting, to say the least, that Verin is spearheading the hunt for the Black Ajah. It could work and it seems like Rafe really likes Verin, so I imagine her arc remains very similar.
That was a whirlwind intro to Tel'aran'rhiod! "Oh, by the way, this evil woman is also Freddy Krueger, don't fall asleep." Not sure how non-book people are absorbing all the different magical elements of the show.
With Galldrian turned into a queen, maybe she is being merged with Colavaere?
I am a little worried that we have not seen Siuan yet this season.
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Post by sarapen on Sept 18, 2023 8:40:22 GMT -5
I assume we are being as spoilery as the Star Wars thread? I will really miss Gaul, but I don't mind combining him with Aviendha. Merging Verin and Vandene is ok as well. It is interesting, to say the least, that Verin is spearheading the hunt for the Black Ajah. It could work and it seems like Rafe really likes Verin, so I imagine her arc remains very similar. That was a whirlwind intro to Tel'aran'rhiod! "Oh, by the way, this evil woman is also Freddy Krueger, don't fall asleep." Not sure how non-book people are absorbing all the different magical elements of the show. With Galldrian turned into a queen, maybe she is being merged with Colavaere? I am a little worried that we have not seen Siuan yet this season. Yeah, Aviendha is much more important than Gaul so I can see why they introduced her earlier. I think I read somewhere that they're casting him for season 3, though. I'll note that Mat is adventuring with Min and Perrin is now buddies with Aviendha which is kind of funny. I've seen some people shipping those pairings too. Also there's a Siuan scene in the season 2 trailer so I think we're getting the meeting that was supposed to happen at the start of book 2. |
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Post by nowimnothing on Sept 22, 2023 7:31:53 GMT -5
Dare I say that I actually like some of the changes now? It is clear in the books that Jordan had an ending in mind but he kind of threw in characters, plots and magic systems on the fly. We are getting to see more of how much Moraine sacrifices her humanity in order to save it. Lanfear is more fully rounded and understandable, even if she is just as crazy. Even Liandrin has a lot more depth.
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Post by sarapen on Sept 25, 2023 12:24:34 GMT -5
Latest episode's Egwene prison scenes are quite well-acted. Renna's actor comes off as weird until you remember that suldam don't consider damane human and Renna is acting like someone taming a skittish dog - constant eye contact, speaking slowly and evenly, no sudden movements.
Minor thing from the series I just realized - does no one smoke tobacco? Moiraine did reminisce over her stash of doobies from her teenage years but I can't recall any male characters talking about smoking a pipe, let alone doing it on camera. I assume it's because smoking rates have gone down precipitously since the early 90s and hardly anyone in Hollywood is a smoker nowadays.
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Post by nowimnothing on Sept 25, 2023 15:28:55 GMT -5
Latest episode's Egwene prison scenes are quite well-acted. Renna's actor comes off as weird until you remember that suldam don't consider damane human and Renna is acting like someone taming a skittish dog - constant eye contact, speaking slowly and evenly, no sudden movements. Minor thing from the series I just realized - does no one smoke tobacco? Moiraine did reminisce over her stash of doobies from her teenage years but I can't recall any male characters talking about smoking a pipe, let alone doing it on camera. I assume it's because smoking rates have gone down precipitously since the early 90s and hardly anyone in Hollywood is a smoker nowadays. Ahh, man! Now no one will get my new shirt:  |
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Post by nowimnothing on Sept 29, 2023 18:50:35 GMT -5
Natasha O'Keeffe is nailing Lanfear. I loved casual and kind of bored violence as she waltzed through the foregate. Also Egwene goes BOOM!
I think Gitara's vision could have used a bit more weight in the delivery, but we got to see it at least.
The introduction of Toh was alright. Not so sure about Matt's bad trip. I thought it would be more like the flicker.
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Sept 30, 2023 12:03:59 GMT -5
Natasha O'Keeffe is nailing Lanfear. I loved casual and kind of bored violence as she waltzed through the foregate. Also Egwene goes BOOM! I think Gitara's vision could have used a bit more weight in the delivery, but we got to see it at least. The introduction of Toh was alright. Not so sure about Matt's bad trip. I thought it would be more like the flicker. This episode was fantastic. Everything moving along, and some really great moments. Lanfear is amazing. Like, in the books she just seemed like "crazy ex girlfriend", now she's charismatic and menacing in equal parts. |
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Sept 30, 2023 16:17:56 GMT -5
Latest episode's Egwene prison scenes are quite well-acted. Renna's actor comes off as weird until you remember that suldam don't consider damane human and Renna is acting like someone taming a skittish dog - constant eye contact, speaking slowly and evenly, no sudden movements. Minor thing from the series I just realized - does no one smoke tobacco? Moiraine did reminisce over her stash of doobies from her teenage years but I can't recall any male characters talking about smoking a pipe, let alone doing it on camera. I assume it's because smoking rates have gone down precipitously since the early 90s and hardly anyone in Hollywood is a smoker nowadays. Semi-related: does anyone smoke in Rings of Power? I forget if “pipe weed” is supposed to be a thing by the Second Age to begin with, but I’m also wondering if LotR would even have smoking in it if it were released today. |
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Post by sarapen on Oct 1, 2023 17:53:56 GMT -5
I borrowed the Wheel of Time Companion from the library without realizing that it's a massive book. I think it basically consolidates everything from all the glossaries, though apparently there's also stuff from Robert Jordan's notes in there that has never been seen. I didn't read the whole thing, just skipped around looking up stuff at random. Like half the Amyrlin Seats mentioned were assassinated, overthrown in a coup attempt, or had to put down a coup. Also the constitution of the Red Ajah apparently outlines the conditions when it's okay for them to attempt a coup, but it's couched in such doublespeak that lots of Reds don't know what it is they're looking at. And some of the other Ajahs also have similar contingency plans.
I guess that really gives perspective on the Tower split, although obviously the previous coups d'etats never became public knowledge. I'm mentioning coups because I think the messy breakup between Siuan and Moiraine in the latest episode is what precipitates Elaida's coup in this go-around. Not only does Siuan let the Dragon Reborn slip form her fingers, but he gets taken away by a Forsaken in league with the Amyrlin's ex-girlfriend? Boy does that look bad.
Anyway I'm really looking forward to the finale. Looks like we get the charge of the Heroes of the Horn. I think the show people have demonstrated enough competence that we can expect that the battle in the sky won't be cheesy. I hope we get the Seanchan pteradactyls since those were pretty neat later on during the attack on the White Tower.
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Post by nowimnothing on Oct 6, 2023 19:58:17 GMT -5
Random thoughts:
Rand is Indy in Raiders of the Lost Ark vs Turak.
Moiraine is overpowered. I hope they don't expand and contract their power just to fit the plot.
From Ars Technica, "Moghedien is definitely the Forsaken with the most Hot Topic Nightmare Before Christmas merch in her bedroom."
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Oct 7, 2023 14:25:58 GMT -5
That was a great season finale! Bringing everyone together for the big battle was great. The Heroes of the Horn and UNO!
It's been a long time since I read any of the books, but I feel like Nynaeve's mental block with channeling needs to be resolved soon.
Actually excited for the next season!
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Post by sarapen on Oct 9, 2023 19:18:39 GMT -5
I guess I can understand why they changed that duel with High Lord Turak. Rand barely has any training so it would just be too weird for him to win. Also evil Bjork is such a little weirdo. I thought the dragon looked kind of cheesy but I've seen some non-reader reactions saying that they thought it was epic. Maybe it comes across like that if you weren't expecting something else. But overall, this season is so much better than the first one. The finale of course is much better but the whole thing is just much better crafted.
I assume we're going to skip straight to book 4 since the most vital part of book 3 for later plotlines - the introduction of the Aiel - has already been covered. And if the show did actually do a faithful adaptation of book 3, then I think it would annoy many show-only people since they'd complain that the plot was just season 2 all over again. I guess Callandor can be introduced somewhere else, maybe in Rhuidean. Not sure if we'll get the Stone of Tear at all. But anyway, I can see the vaguest shape of what I think the future of the show will be.
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