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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 17:06:31 GMT -5
This goes into "stuff somewhat explained outside the movies" but the Clone Wars show went into the idea that the crystals within lightsabers are more than just inanimate objects and actually connect with the force or something like that Yea, I totally get that some people have an issue with things not being 100% clear or explained in the movie but c'mon, the originals are full of stuff that doesn't totally make sense or get explained and nobody complains about those (well some people do, but generally not people claiming to be Star Wars fans). When I was rewatching the OT a big chunk of my thoughts went into how all the sets looked really cool, but most of the shit didn't seem to have any practical reason to exist at all. Like cloud city is built entirely around stuff looking cool instead of actually working towards anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 17:14:06 GMT -5
The falcon on jakku was a cool action sequence, but the rest of the film? It kinda mirrors my problem with another big blockbuster from this year(Age of Ultron), as full sequences nothing really stands out, but there were some cool action shots. The x-wings flying over the water was cool, everything that came after with them in that scene isn't really memorable.
I will say the prequels did have some cool action sequences, Obi-Wan fighting with both Grevious and Jango is cool. The darth maul stuff. The chase scene through coruscant. Most of the sequence to open ROTS(the R2-D2 stuff though....... not so much).
It is a shame that what may have been the best action sequence in TFA was for the most part deleted. From what I understand the stuff with the Rathtars was supposed to be more elaborate and longer. The reason why they hired the people from The Raid, is because they wanted to do an action scene with them. But it got trimmed down in the editing room.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jan 5, 2016 17:14:59 GMT -5
Yea, I totally get that some people have an issue with things not being 100% clear or explained in the movie but c'mon, the originals are full of stuff that doesn't totally make sense or get explained and nobody complains about those (well some people do, but generally not people claiming to be Star Wars fans). When I was rewatching the OT a big chunk of my thoughts went into how all the sets looked really cool, but most of the shit didn't seem to have any practical reason to exist at all. Like cloud city is built entirely around stuff looking cool instead of actually working towards anything. Well if you know a more efficient way to harvest and process Tibanna gas, I'm sure they'd looooove to hear it, Mr. Smarty Pants.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jan 5, 2016 17:17:29 GMT -5
The falcon on jakku was a cool action sequence, but the rest of the film? It kinda mirrors my problem with another big blockbuster from this year(Age of Ultron), as full sequences nothing really stands out, but there were some cool action shots. The x-wings flying over the water was cool, everything that came after with them in that scene isn't really memorable. I will say the prequels did have some cool action sequences, Obi-Wan fighting with both Grevious and Jango is cool. The darth maul stuff. The chase scene through coruscant. Most of the sequence to open ROTS(the R2-D2 stuff though....... not so much). It is a shame that what may have been the best action sequence in TFA was for the most part deleted. From what I understand the stuff with the Rathtars was supposed to be more elaborate and longer. The reason why they hired the people from The Raid, is because they wanted to do an action scene with them. But it got trimmed down in the editing room. That kind of sucks. I would have rather had that action sequence than the Rathtar stuff, though I suppose you wouldn't have a true riff on the original trilogy without a semi-inexplicable space monster fight at some point.
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Post by ganews on Jan 5, 2016 17:21:09 GMT -5
Actually, one of the most memorable scenes to me was the opening, post-crawl. Instead of the traditional opening shot of a ship in space, we see only the backlit shadow of a ship. Metaphor!
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Post by Judkins Moaner on Jan 5, 2016 18:55:54 GMT -5
So, on top of everything else, there was a scene that had Chewie flirting with Harriet Walter.
... And the MRA vs. Star Wars post has over 2000 comments. This ought to be good.
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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Jan 5, 2016 19:44:08 GMT -5
- One thing I haven't seen stated, and which bummed me most about the entire movie, is that I didn't feel there was a single memorable action scene. Not one. Probably the chase through the Jakku market was best, but beyond that... like, say what you will about the prequel trilogy, but there were a bunch of awesome action sequences. The pod race. The arena battle with those big monsters. The space battle and saber fight with Grevious. Man I couldn't disagree with this more. All the prequel scenes felt like garish, ugly cartoons to me where none of the heroes were ever in any danger whatsoever. Here there were people sprinting, sweating, bleeding, being fatigued, etc. Loved the lightsaber battle and how Ren's effectiveness decreased the more injured he got. Also loved Finn and Poe in the TIE fighter. Agreed for the most part—all the on-the-ground stuff was great for the reasons you said (this film felt more like it had actual humans rather than mythic/comic book archetypes, which is something I only got from The Empire Strikes Back), and the TIE fighter escape worked because it tied into that. I can see the critique of most of the space battles, though—Abrams just doesn’t really do space very well. I think part of it might be an aesthetic choice stemming from some desire for verism—fast ships flying around quickly and not having much in the sense of pretty formations or choreography that can easily be seen (IIRC the space battles tended to be more from characters’ points of views, with the sort of idealized camera-in-space view de-emphasized). The Force Awakens battles were definitely less composed than in previous films. The nuTrek space battles haven’t been very good, either, with the exception of the opening one in Trek 09—which, again, mostly happens from characters POV rather than the sort of neutral camera in space.
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Post by ganews on Jan 5, 2016 20:03:19 GMT -5
Abrams just doesn’t really do space very well. I still don't understand why this guy was the choice to helm both American flagship space epics.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jan 5, 2016 20:08:27 GMT -5
What I'm guessing with Ren is that he was a somewhat troubled kid. Though this isn't so much guessing as it is actual text. Han and leia sent him off to try and help him. Which just makes me think that han and leia are actually kinda shitty parents and because they were shit parents it caused the rift to grow between them and that had an effect on him. He could tell his parents were having problems, but a problem with his own self just for being their kid. He probably feels like he is to blame for their marital problems(which seems to be of some truth) so he starts to resent them and probably acts out, and then they send him off to Luke for better guidance. Thus causing the hate and pain to grow further, because now he likely views them as if they are giving up on him and making him someone else's problem, rather than them trying to help(also maybe some truth in this). Now from there? Somehow during his jedi training Ren comes in contact with Snoke, and then Snoke just fills his head full of lies or some shit. Probably being the first to tell him about Vader and Rens past lineage, which in his fragile state makes him obsessed with Vader. Leia, han, and Luke likely never even told Ren about Vader because they probably didn't even want to deal with all that. Even if in the end Vader helped take down palpatine, he was still an evil guy who did many evil things. They probably thought keeping it secret was the best thing for the kid, because how do you really explain all that? And also. If they did tell him about Vader being his grandfather, then they clearly left out the part about him trying to be good in the end, which makes a whole lot less sense than just keeping it all a secret from him. Problems here: 1. This is all extrapolation, and there is not a lot, or any, evidence in the film proper for your theories one way or another. This isn't a mark against you; it's a mark against the film for limiting exposition in an attempt to force viewers to watch the next film. I'm good with there not being any more exposition in this film. There was already more than enough clumsy exposition of the "Don't worry, Giant Snoke Hologram, we, your fellow bad guys, are going to destroy the Resistance, you know, our enemies? The one's we're always trying to kill? The ones that are trying to kill us? You know, the people that don't have Stormtroopers? Oh, you do know these very simple facts, being basically the mastermind of all malevolence in the galaxy, and this is all just clumsy exposition for the benefit of the audience? That makes sense. Alright, bye Giant Snoke Hologram, see you for real in Episode VIII or IX, probably!" variety.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 21:21:54 GMT -5
Abrams just doesn’t really do space very well. I still don't understand why this guy was the choice to helm both American flagship space epics. Felicity was really really good.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jan 5, 2016 21:38:20 GMT -5
I just wanted to say that reading through all of this has been very thought-provoking and also that I'm really glad about @matt1's username/avatar because it suggests someone other than my wife and I saw and enjoyed What If? All I could think of in TFA was Adam Driver hollering about sex and nachos.
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Post by ganews on Jan 5, 2016 22:13:10 GMT -5
I just wanted to say that reading through all of this has been very thought-provoking and also that I'm really glad about @matt1 's username/avatar because it suggests someone other than my wife and I saw and enjoyed What If? All I could think of in TFA was Adam Driver hollering about sex and nachos. If it makes you feel better, that movie has been all over Showtime lately and I have been pleased to watch to the end every time I catch a bit of it.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jan 5, 2016 22:30:22 GMT -5
So I was thinking about Luke's lightsaber this morning and I wonder if he possibly imbued it with the Force or something? That would certainly explain the vision/dream sequence that Rey experiences and might also resolve some of the "Rey is too overpowered against a trained Kylo Ren" issue some have with the finale. For what purpose would Luke have done this and then just left it in a box somewhere for anyone to find? I don't know, although that certainly seems like something that would be explained in the next movie now that Luke is actually in the picture. It's also possible that I'm reaching to much to explain away nitpicks about I movie I really enjoyed. While it is odd to find Luke lightsaber in that box, it is even odder that it is actually Anakin's lightsaber that Luke lost at Cloud City. So either someone found it and it made its way to Maz or it was returned to Luke who then gave it up and it made its way to Maz. I will go with the simpler explanation that Maz was some kind of Force relic collector/historian and she was able to acquire it without going through Luke. Maybe she is also the source of Vader's helmet? She might have sold the helmet to Kylo, but there is no way she would have sold the lightsaber. Perhaps Kylo even suspected her of having it, which is why he recognized it and claimed it as his birthright when he saw Finn with it. So Luke is really fucking surprised to see that show up again. Um, I thought that when Rey stumbled upon Luke's lightsaber Han or someone said something like "Where did you get that?" to Maz, and then Maz was all like "That is a story for another day because somewhat needless suspense". I was 100% under the impression that Luke had not seen that lightsaber since he lost his hand on Bespin. Hence the reason for Rey silently offering Luke his lightsaber in lieu of a verbal introduction; it would be seen as a pretty fucking powerful gesture to him. On the other hand, maybe like you said, Luke recovered it and gave it to Maz before heading out. However, going around looking for his dad's old lightsaber seems an uncharacteristically selfish endeavor for a post-RotJ Luke.
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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Jan 5, 2016 23:04:59 GMT -5
Maz is totally Star Wars’s Guinan. If they don’t get real-life Lupita Nyong’o to play younger Guinan in the hypothetical fourth Star Trek movie they will be making a huge mistake.
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Trurl
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Post by Trurl on Jan 5, 2016 23:33:44 GMT -5
Has it been suggested that since Kylo Ren killed Han in this one, that he's going to marry Leia in the next one and maybe blind himself in the third?
I enjoyed the movie - I think it is a worthy successor to the original trilogy. I'd even go far as to say that I liked it more than Jedi. But I think the weaknesses of this movie (and Star Wars movies in general) is that it has to be understandable by six-year-olds. The story can get dark, even Brothers Grimm dark, but it can never get particularly complicated. Possibly it's because of the whole Joseph Campbell influence - the monomyth is not the place to look for subtlety. I'm fine with the lightsaber appearing in a box in the basement of a bar, beats having an arm rising out of a lake to hand it to Rey.
Speaking of dark - is this the only Star Wars movie that shows actual blood? The smear on Finn's helmet and Kylo's bleeding in the snow? Even when Han cuts open the tauntaun there's no blood, just some guts, but presumably the lightsaber cauterized the wound.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jan 5, 2016 23:45:45 GMT -5
Has it been suggested that since Kylo Ren killed Han in this one, that he's going to marry Leia in the next one and maybe blind himself in the third? I enjoyed the movie - I think it is a worthy successor to the original trilogy. I'd even go far as to say that I liked it more than Jedi. But I think the weaknesses of this movie (and Star Wars movies in general) is that it has to be understandable by six-year-olds. The story can get dark, even Brothers Grimm dark, but it can never get particularly complicated. Possibly it's because of the whole Joseph Campbell influence - the monomyth is not the place to look for subtlety. I'm fine with the lightsaber appearing in a box in the basement of a bar, beats having an arm rising out of a lake to hand it to Rey. Speaking of dark - is this the only Star Wars movie that shows actual blood? The smear on Finn's helmet and Kylo's bleeding in the snow? Even when Han cuts open the tauntaun there's no blood, just some guts, but presumably the lightsaber cauterized the wound. Nope. In ANH, when Obi Wan chops that dude who has the death sentence on twelve systems' arm off, there's some blood spatters on the ground around the severed limb, but yeah, for the most part, you're right, pre-TFA injuries in Star Wars are usually bloodless. I think they did a good job of incorporating it here without (hopefully) making it too scary for kids. At least, the blood in TFA is certainly less disturbing than Haydn Christensen engulfed in flames screaming "I hate you!" at Obi-Wan.
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Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Jan 6, 2016 1:02:30 GMT -5
Has it been suggested that since Kylo Ren killed Han in this one, that he's going to marry Leia in the next one and maybe blind himself in the third? I enjoyed the movie - I think it is a worthy successor to the original trilogy. I'd even go far as to say that I liked it more than Jedi. But I think the weaknesses of this movie (and Star Wars movies in general) is that it has to be understandable by six-year-olds. The story can get dark, even Brothers Grimm dark, but it can never get particularly complicated. Possibly it's because of the whole Joseph Campbell influence - the monomyth is not the place to look for subtlety. I'm fine with the lightsaber appearing in a box in the basement of a bar, beats having an arm rising out of a lake to hand it to Rey. Speaking of dark - is this the only Star Wars movie that shows actual blood? The smear on Finn's helmet and Kylo's bleeding in the snow? Even when Han cuts open the tauntaun there's no blood, just some guts, but presumably the lightsaber cauterized the wound. Nope. In ANH, when Obi Wan chops that dude who has the death sentence on twelve systems' arm off, there's some blood spatters on the ground around the severed limb, but yeah, for the most part, you're right, pre-TFA injuries in Star Wars are usually bloodless. I think they did a good job of incorporating it here without (hopefully) making it too scary for kids. At least, the blood in TFA is certainly less disturbing than Haydn Christensen engulfed in flames screaming "I hate you!" at Obi-Wan. This is because the MPAA gives a higher rating when there's blood.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jan 6, 2016 1:06:58 GMT -5
Nope. In ANH, when Obi Wan chops that dude who has the death sentence on twelve systems' arm off, there's some blood spatters on the ground around the severed limb, but yeah, for the most part, you're right, pre-TFA injuries in Star Wars are usually bloodless. I think they did a good job of incorporating it here without (hopefully) making it too scary for kids. At least, the blood in TFA is certainly less disturbing than Haydn Christensen engulfed in flames screaming "I hate you!" at Obi-Wan. This is because the MPAA gives a higher rating when there's blood. What about that episode of The Magic School Bus where their magical science bus shrinks them to be small enough to drive through veins and they're all like "Whoa, look at those individual blood cells"? Would that have merited a PG-13 rating if it were a movie?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 6, 2016 1:27:03 GMT -5
I actually don't have too much of a problem with Ren being weak at the end. He took a shot directly to the gut from Chewie's bowcaster. We saw repeatedly in this movie that a bowcaster shot completely takes out the Stormtroopers. (Which is probably the reason the script makes such a big deal of Han's fascination with the weapon.) If Ren took a shot to the gut from that thing and still manages to fight, then that is pretty impressive.
I also didn't think he was pounding his side to try to distract from the pain. I thought he was doing it in order to *induce* pain. I thought he was trying to use the pain for strength. During my 3rd viewing I was really focusing on Adam Driver's performance. I think Ren really thought that killing Han would make him feel better. But it didn't. Instead it made him feel worse. The look that passes across his face after he kills Han is not anything close to relief or release of any kind. He mostly looks upset, scared and confused, and even sort of like he realizes that he just made a mistake. I wonder if the novelization goes at all into his state of mind?
Anyway, I didn't really mind him getting weaker and weaker as he became more and more injured. While also being a complete emotional mess.
I have a bigger problem with Rey suddenly being really strong.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 6, 2016 1:31:41 GMT -5
And as far as power, well, the most high level fight we've ever seen was Yoda versus Palpatine, and Palpatine essentially won. "Essentially". Meh. Granted, I've only seen that movie once, when it came out. But, I recall finding that scene extremely frustrating because it seemed like there was no reason Yoda lost other than because the Emperor has to live due to Original Trilogy. Also, if Snoke has been training Kylo Ren to purge emotion, then he's doing a piss poor job.
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Post by Nudeviking on Jan 6, 2016 1:44:55 GMT -5
Speaking of dark - is this the only Star Wars movie that shows actual blood? The smear on Finn's helmet and Kylo's bleeding in the snow? Even when Han cuts open the tauntaun there's no blood, just some guts, but presumably the lightsaber cauterized the wound. Have you forgotten poor, Ponda Baba, Walrus Man of the Cantina? He of "He doesn't like you. I don't like your either!" infamy? Dude's arm was bleeding all over the goddamn place.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jan 6, 2016 2:10:40 GMT -5
And as far as power, well, the most high level fight we've ever seen was Yoda versus Palpatine, and Palpatine essentially won. "Essentially". Meh. Granted, I've only seen that movie once, when it came out. But, I recall finding that scene extremely frustrating because it seemed like there was no reason Yoda lost other than because the Emperor has to live due to Original Trilogy. Also, if Snoke has been training Kylo Ren to purge emotion, then he's doing a piss poor job. Maybe Yoda was just more elderly than Palpatine at the time. Yoda is centuries old, and so apparently is Palpatine, but perhaps the Dark Side has unethical means of life-extension, or maybe powerful Force-using humans have longer life expectancies than force-using whatever-Yodas-are. Yoda only lives like 23 years or so after RotS before dying of old age, whereas Palpatine in RotJ probably wasn't going to be dying anytime soon if Vader hadn't thrown him to his death. Like, in hockey, Patrick Shitbag Kane is currently better at hockey than Jaromir Jagr, but Jagr is like 43 and Kane's in the prime of his shitbag career. Jagr's had a better career than Patrick Shitbag Kane will have, though. So perhaps similarly, Yoda's career as a Jedi as a whole is more impressive than Palpatine's as a Sitg, but Palpatine was just stronger in Episode III, or something? But, tortured NHL metaphors aside, the real explanation is probably just that the prequels sucked.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 6, 2016 5:30:56 GMT -5
And as far as power, well, the most high level fight we've ever seen was Yoda versus Palpatine, and Palpatine essentially won. "Essentially". Meh. Granted, I've only seen that movie once, when it came out. But, I recall finding that scene extremely frustrating because it seemed like there was no reason Yoda lost other than because the Emperor has to live due to Original Trilogy. Also, if Snoke has been training Kylo Ren to purge emotion, then he's doing a piss poor job. It was the Jedi that tried to control their feelings. Sith just try to unleash them.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 6, 2016 8:08:42 GMT -5
"Essentially". Meh. Granted, I've only seen that movie once, when it came out. But, I recall finding that scene extremely frustrating because it seemed like there was no reason Yoda lost other than because the Emperor has to live due to Original Trilogy. Also, if Snoke has been training Kylo Ren to purge emotion, then he's doing a piss poor job. Maybe Yoda was just more elderly than Palpatine at the time. Yoda is centuries old, and so apparently is Palpatine, but perhaps the Dark Side has unethical means of life-extension, or maybe powerful Force-using humans have longer life expectancies than force-using whatever-Yodas-are. Yoda only lives like 23 years or so after RotS before dying of old age, whereas Palpatine in RotJ probably wasn't going to be dying anytime soon if Vader hadn't thrown him to his death. Like, in hockey, Patrick Shitbag Kane is currently better at hockey than Jaromir Jagr, but Jagr is like 43 and Kane's in the prime of his shitbag career. Jagr's had a better career than Patrick Shitbag Kane will have, though. So perhaps similarly, Yoda's career as a Jedi as a whole is more impressive than Palpatine's as a Sitg, but Palpatine was just stronger in Episode III, or something? But, tortured NHL metaphors aside, the real explanation is probably just that the prequels sucked. Actually Mace Windu vs Palpatine would have been the highest level fight. I think Yoda had more control over the Force, but Mace was the better swordsman. Unless Palpatine allowed himself to be disfigured and defeated just to lure Anakin in, Mace won that battle. I have heard there is some EU stuff that explains Mace Windu's fighting style to be bordering on the dark side and that was the only reason he was able to beat him. Light side is all about defense, but Mace was clearly on the offense, especially as he chose to execute a defeated opponent. Palpatine has already lead Anakin through this same scenario with Dooku. Despite all that he has been taught he realizes that the Jedi hold no moral high ground over the Sith.
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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 6, 2016 8:30:14 GMT -5
Speaking of dark - is this the only Star Wars movie that shows actual blood? The smear on Finn's helmet and Kylo's bleeding in the snow? Even when Han cuts open the tauntaun there's no blood, just some guts, but presumably the lightsaber cauterized the wound. well there was blood when Obi Wan cut off Ponda Baba's arm in the original (though that was before they started having lightsabers cauterize wounds)
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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 6, 2016 8:33:23 GMT -5
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jan 6, 2016 9:41:50 GMT -5
When Obi-Wan cut off Ponda Baba's arm, it was sitting in a pool of blood. I think Luke was also bloodied by the Wampa.
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Post by ganews on Jan 6, 2016 9:57:46 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned the guy whose arm got cut off in the original and how he bled?
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jan 6, 2016 9:59:33 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned the guy whose arm got cut off in the original and how he bled? That was Ponda Baba.
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Post by ganews on Jan 6, 2016 10:03:27 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned the guy whose arm got cut off in the original and how he bled? That was Ponda Baba.
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