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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 6, 2016 10:05:41 GMT -5
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Post by pairesta on Jan 6, 2016 10:20:01 GMT -5
Has it been suggested that since Kylo Ren killed Han in this one, that he's going to marry Leia in the next one and maybe blind himself in the third? I enjoyed the movie - I think it is a worthy successor to the original trilogy. I'd even go far as to say that I liked it more than Jedi. But I think the weaknesses of this movie (and Star Wars movies in general) is that it has to be understandable by six-year-olds. The story can get dark, even Brothers Grimm dark, but it can never get particularly complicated. Possibly it's because of the whole Joseph Campbell influence - the monomyth is not the place to look for subtlety. I'm fine with the lightsaber appearing in a box in the basement of a bar, beats having an arm rising out of a lake to hand it to Rey. Speaking of dark - is this the only Star Wars movie that shows actual blood? The smear on Finn's helmet and Kylo's bleeding in the snow? Even when Han cuts open the tauntaun there's no blood, just some guts, but presumably the lightsaber cauterized the wound. Here and there (there's blood on that arm Obi Wan cuts off in the catina in Star Wars), but this is definitely the most volume of blood seen.
EDIT: I didn't even see that there was a whole other page after this comment. Of course us nerds would all jump on this.
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Trurl
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Post by Trurl on Jan 6, 2016 11:02:16 GMT -5
Ponda Baba's blood is only shown for less than a second, Luke has some blood on his face and the Wampa has some on his chin (a messy eater, I guess), whereas TFA actually draws attention to the blood. If this were a different movie or director I'd suggest that maybe there was a deliberate, thematic basis for it. As it stands, I do think that the blood on Finn's helmet was a nice visual cue to differentiate him from the rest of the storm troopers.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Jan 6, 2016 11:24:48 GMT -5
Has anyone made a joke asking if anyone has responded to Trurl's question about if there was any blood in previous Star Wars films by saying that there was a pool of blood when Obi Wan cut off Ponda Baba's arm yet yet?
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Trurl
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Post by Trurl on Jan 6, 2016 11:25:49 GMT -5
Has anyone commented on how pretty some of this movie is? In all the scenes around the junked Star Destroyer I could easily imagine the concept art, very painterly. Too bad the whole movie wasn't shot and composed like that.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 6, 2016 11:34:00 GMT -5
Has anyone commented on how pretty some of this movie is? In all the scenes around the junked Star Destroyer I could easily imagine the concept art, very painterly. Too bad the whole movie wasn't shot and composed like that. I loved that feeling that Rey and others were playing in the ruins of a far grander civilization. It plays in with the New Order and Kylo being poor stand-ins for Vader and the Empire. Unfortunately that is all kind of thrown out the window when the Starkiller is unveiled. It is kind of like North Korea developing some kind of super nuclear bomb that could take out continents at a time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 13:19:13 GMT -5
It doesn't even seem to be logistically plausible even in a space fantasy setting that the starkiller base should be a thing. Like that is thousands of miles across to build and carve out. No way they could have built that in only a few years, or even 30. The man power alone would be an insane amount. Which is what made me feel like the first order was way more powerful than anyone else in the galaxy and not an insurgency.
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Post by King Charlesโs Butterfly on Jan 6, 2016 14:42:16 GMT -5
I actually don't have too much of a problem with Ren being weak at the end. He took a shot directly to the gut from Chewie's bowcaster. We saw repeatedly in this movie that a bowcaster shot completely takes out the Stormtroopers. (Which is probably the reason the script makes such a big deal of Han's fascination with the weapon.) If Ren took a shot to the gut from that thing and still manages to fight, then that is pretty impressive. I also didn't think he was pounding his side to try to distract from the pain. I thought he was doing it in order to *induce* pain. I thought he was trying to use the pain for strength. During my 3rd viewing I was really focusing on Adam Driver's performance. I think Ren really thought that killing Han would make him feel better. But it didn't. Instead it made him feel worse. The look that passes across his face after he kills Han is not anything close to relief or release of any kind. He mostly looks upset, scared and confused, and even sort of like he realizes that he just made a mistake. I wonder if the novelization goes at all into his state of mind? Anyway, I didn't really mind him getting weaker and weaker as he became more and more injured. While also being a complete emotional mess. I have a bigger problem with Rey suddenly being really strong. I didnโt necessarily have a problem with Rey being goodโto some degree Ren seems to be more bark than biteโeven setting aside the fact that heโs hurt, the main things heโs used his lightsaber for are killing defenseless old thespians and throwing temper tantrums. It doesnโt entirely surprise me that heโd falter a bit in an actual combat setting, especially if he realized he was dealing with someone who might be an asset later. One thing Iโm surprised hasnโt been mentioned more wrt his character is the kind of off-hand mentions that Ren was โgroomedโ by Snoke. That makes Snoke sound a lot more like a predator/abuser, which I thought was pretty effective (and dark) in a blink-or-you-miss-it sort of way.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 6, 2016 14:45:16 GMT -5
It doesn't even seem to be logistically plausible even in a space fantasy setting that the starkiller base should be a thing. Like that is thousands of miles across to build and carve out. No way they could have built that in only a few years, or even 30. The man power alone would be an insane amount. Which is what made me feel like the first order was way more powerful than anyone else in the galaxy and not an insurgency. True, though building the weapon into an existing planet rather than building a space station around it from scratch had to save some time and energy.
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on Jan 6, 2016 15:30:44 GMT -5
I actually don't have too much of a problem with Ren being weak at the end. He took a shot directly to the gut from Chewie's bowcaster. We saw repeatedly in this movie that a bowcaster shot completely takes out the Stormtroopers. (Which is probably the reason the script makes such a big deal of Han's fascination with the weapon.) If Ren took a shot to the gut from that thing and still manages to fight, then that is pretty impressive. I also didn't think he was pounding his side to try to distract from the pain. I thought he was doing it in order to *induce* pain. I thought he was trying to use the pain for strength. During my 3rd viewing I was really focusing on Adam Driver's performance. I think Ren really thought that killing Han would make him feel better. But it didn't. Instead it made him feel worse. The look that passes across his face after he kills Han is not anything close to relief or release of any kind. He mostly looks upset, scared and confused, and even sort of like he realizes that he just made a mistake. I wonder if the novelization goes at all into his state of mind? Anyway, I didn't really mind him getting weaker and weaker as he became more and more injured. While also being a complete emotional mess. I have a bigger problem with Rey suddenly being really strong. I didnโt necessarily have a problem with Rey being goodโto some degree Ren seems to be more bark than biteโeven setting aside the fact that heโs hurt, the main things heโs used his lightsaber for are killing defenseless old thespians and throwing temper tantrums. It doesnโt entirely surprise me that heโd falter a bit in an actual combat setting, especially if he realized he was dealing with someone who might be an asset later. One thing Iโm surprised hasnโt been mentioned more wrt his character is the kind of off-hand mentions that Ren was โgroomedโ by Snoke. That makes Snoke sound a lot more like a predator/abuser, which I thought was pretty effective (and dark) in a blink-or-you-miss-it sort of way. Well they are also meant to be Imperial remnant that never got liberated or added to the new Republic, right? Is it possible that this was something that Palpatine had already had in the works even as they were completing the 2nd Death Star? I mean, the original Death Star plans were something he'd already started before he and the Empire even took control. The guy definitely took the long view on superweapon development.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 6, 2016 15:40:02 GMT -5
Which is what made me feel like the first order was way more powerful than anyone else in the galaxy and not an insurgency. Well they're not an insurgency, they're a North Korea type (and I was using this comparison since before yesterday for the record) government. The Soviet Union - or Galactic Empire - may have fallen, but this imperial group is still around, ruling an unclear amount of space, and presumably spending all their budget on cool weaponry. As Superb Owl ๐ฆ says, they're the Imperial remnant.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 6, 2016 16:10:19 GMT -5
Hmm, maybe Russia is a better comparison. The USSR has fallen apart but 30 years later the remnants can still be pretty dangerous when headed by a charismatic leader who talks about the good old days. Plus they have a lot of old weapons lying around. Secretly they are building a super-weapon while their citizens languish.
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Trurl
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Post by Trurl on Jan 6, 2016 17:34:03 GMT -5
Story idea, don't know if this has been done.
Sick of the constant losses to the rebellion/resistance, a faction within the First Order decides that making another super weapon is stupid and they need a new strategy so they start waging a guerilla war. Meanwhile, on the resistance side, a faction is terrified because they realize that the only reason they managed to knock out three planet-destroying super weapons is because of wildly good luck. What if next time there weren't any Bothans or turncoat stormtroopers to provide critical information on the super weapon's weaknesses? So they start building a super weapon of their own, something that can take out a Death Star if one were to show up again.
But as it turns out, the super weapons were less about effectiveness as weapons and more about fulfilling some psychological need. The armies of the dark side *need* to build giant weapons - the marshalling of all the wills into a strict hierarchy to provide immense power that is only wielded by the individual at the top, that's the organizational principal of the dark side. And the First Order guerillas, with their distributed command-and-control structure and requirement for autonomy among the units, end up falling into chaos and become more of a military liability. Meanwhile for the resistance the requirements of building a Death Star Killer (with the need for autocratic managerial control and resource appropriation) end up pushing the resistance people over into the dark side.
I think I just like the idea that dark side and light side strategies will never change, that they're built into the way the force works. That it doesn't matter which side wins the war, it will always be dark side forces attempting to build a planet killer and the light side forces attempting to destroy it, and that neither side can adapt or change it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 18:06:59 GMT -5
Which is what made me feel like the first order was way more powerful than anyone else in the galaxy and not an insurgency. Well they're not an insurgency, they're a North Korea type (and I was using this comparison since before yesterday for the record) government. The Soviet Union - or Galactic Empire - may have fallen, but this imperial group is still around, ruling an unclear amount of space, and presumably spending all their budget on cool weaponry. As Superb Owl ๐ฆ says, they're the Imperial remnant. Sorry, I've just seen the first order compared to about...... any kind of military regime. Insurgency was fresh on my mind because I just read a post last night talking about how they fought using guerrilla tactics, and acted like they were one. This was a master post about how they were built and formed and a timeline and blah blah blah, it seemed well researched though I haven't actually looked into any of the supplemental material for TFA yet so I don't exactly know if it was all correct. I will probably check out aftermath once I'm done with basic training.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 6, 2016 18:17:42 GMT -5
Sorry, I've just seen the first order compared to about...... any kind of military regime. Insurgency was fresh on my mind because I just read a post last night talking about how they fought using guerrilla tactics, and acted like they were one. Well besides what was shown in The Force Awakens I'm really going on Wookieepedia here (which is, no doubt, sourced from all those materials), chiefly, for example, these passages: And later, here: If there was ever a period where the First Order that could be considered 'guerrilla', it would be the brief period where they amounted to Imperial starships sneaking into the Unknown Regions to operate away from New Republic scrutiny, but that was some decades ago. Indeed, the specific idea that the First Order is exceeding a treaty-mandated armament limit while a benign democratic power ignores this sabre-rattling seems more inspired by the admittedly obvious analogue of Nazi Germany than anything else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 18:41:40 GMT -5
Either way, starkiller is still too absurd even for star wars. I could believe Yoda meeting chewbacca more than starkiller, and that is saying something.
It does mostly get a pass for being kinda cool though, and while the death of a whole system didn't have as much impact as it should. Gleeson put everything into that Hux speech and that was effective at least.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 7, 2016 0:31:15 GMT -5
Thanks! I don't usually read Star Wars novels. The only ones I've read have been the novelizations of the films. But, I haven't read this one yet. It is interesting that the book goes that way. I now wonder what it has to say about Ren's thoughts following that scene. Also interesting is how that site quotes JJ Abrams as saying that no, that scene is meant to definitively turn Ren to the Dark Side. I wonder if Adam Driver got that note? Because that is not what his face is expressing.
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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 7, 2016 8:17:51 GMT -5
Thanks! I don't usually read Star Wars novels. The only ones I've read have been the novelizations of the films. But, I haven't read this one yet. It is interesting that the book goes that way. I now wonder what it has to say about Ren's thoughts following that scene. Also interesting is how that site quotes JJ Abrams as saying that no, that scene is meant to definitively turn Ren to the Dark Side. I wonder if Adam Driver got that note? Because that is not what his face is expressing. It might just be typical JJ spin though to try and keep people guessing
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Post by Murray the Demonic Skull on Jan 8, 2016 15:55:00 GMT -5
Not sure if somebody already brought this up and I'm not rereading the whole thread but something occurred to me this morning :
- The scene where Rey discovers Luke contemplating wistfully the beautiful scenery of Skelling Michael is very powerful, very dramatic. All in all a great scene. Now, Luke is a powerful Jedi Master who probably felt Rey's presence when she arrived on the island or when she was climbing the hundreds of stairs. Do you think he was in his underwear, shooting the shit with ghost Obi-Wan, while slowly cooking the exiled Jedi Master soup, the secret recipe of which was passed on to him by ghost Yoda? And then he suddenly felt a presence he hadn't felt in a long time, jumped off his couch, passed on his robes in a hurry and then spent 10 minutes finding the perfect position for added dramatic effect?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 16:09:30 GMT -5
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 8, 2016 16:54:47 GMT -5
Not sure if somebody already brought this up and I'm not rereading the whole thread but something occurred to me this morning : - The scene where Rey discovers Luke contemplating wistfully the beautiful scenery of Skelling Michael is very powerful, very dramatic. All in all a great scene. Now, Luke is a powerful Jedi Master who probably felt Rey's presence when she arrived on the island or when she was climbing the hundreds of stairs. Do you think he was in his underwear, shooting the shit with ghost Obi-Wan, while slowly cooking the exiled Jedi Master soup, the secret recipe of which was passed on to him by ghost Yoda? And then he suddenly felt a presence he hadn't felt in a long time, jumped off his couch, passed on his robes in a hurry and then spent 10 minutes finding the perfect position for added dramatic effect? I loved the scene but I am not sure it was really earned. It was supposed to be epic, but partly it was undone by what seemed to be a quick trip in the Falcon. Like, yep there Luke is, all we had to do was get BB8 in the same room as R2D2. I do appreciate it a bit more after comparing it to Leia's plea to Obi Wan in ANH. But it might have worked better if it took them another movie to find him. End with Rey and Chewie starting the trek, they can run into more trouble and find him about halfway through the next movie, maybe even after Chewie sacrificing himself to get her there. Speaking of Chewie, do you think he held little Ben Solo on his knee and told him Wookie bedtime stories? That puts a different spin on all the pain and emotions going through his head when he shoots Kylo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 21:38:10 GMT -5
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 9, 2016 21:42:25 GMT -5
Speaking of Chewie, do you think he held little Ben Solo on his knee and told him Wookie bedtime stories?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 1:37:25 GMT -5
That is about the best thing ever.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 12, 2016 11:56:15 GMT -5
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on Jan 12, 2016 12:11:02 GMT -5
Speaking of Chewie, do you think he held little Ben Solo on his knee and told him Wookie bedtime stories? Force Awakens really was a great outing for Chewie. I'd always thought of him more as an extension of Han than his own thing, but he had his own good character moments this time.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 12, 2016 12:24:40 GMT -5
Force Awakens really was a great outing for Chewie. I'd always thought of him more as an extension of Han than his own thing, but he had his own good character moments this time. We can only hope that they actually filmed that scene of him ripping the arm off the scrap dealer in the novel and we will get it as a blu ray bonus or something.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 13, 2016 14:10:38 GMT -5
Okay here's one theory I do like: Maz Kanata and Snoke are connected.They're both said to be ancient, and both of them have knowledge of the force (and Snoke, use of it.) They may or may not be the same species (though it's unconfirmed what species either one is), but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they knew each other. Maybe Maz is Snoke's ex-wife, is one of the possibilities.
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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 14, 2016 15:49:00 GMT -5
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on Jan 14, 2016 19:37:41 GMT -5
Awesome! I used to love those X-Wing books, this is right up my alley.
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