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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Jan 15, 2016 16:03:23 GMT -5
Okay here's one theory I do like: Maz Kanata and Snoke are connected.They're both said to be ancient, and both of them have knowledge of the force (and Snoke, use of it.) They may or may not be the same species (though it's unconfirmed what species either one is), but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they knew each other. Maybe Maz is Snoke's ex-wife, is one of the possibilities. Obviously it’s something like this: And David Brin has some more thoughts on Star Wars if anyone’s interested.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 15, 2016 16:22:40 GMT -5
King Charles’s Butterfly Delightfully contrarian, and I think his strongest point this time around is about the unwillingness of the films - prequel or sequel - to portray the Republic as something competent. Given his Salon piece famously contrasted Star Wars with Star Trek, and that's the franchise Abrams had been on for two films before moving over to Star Wars, I would have liked to see his thoughts on Abrams' approaches in both - he's still jousting a little at the image of Lucas (and in the comments, where he continues the argument) than Disney. (Both his first Star Trek and his Star Wars involve the destruction of a planet that also wipes out the ability of a government to help, but his Star Trek makes it clearer that the Starfleet has been knocked out than TFA did.)
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Post by King Charles’s Butterfly on Jan 15, 2016 16:29:32 GMT -5
Douay-Rheims-Challoner I think the sort of evolution of the Jedi into Supermen—Supermen the stories are sympathetic with—was his strongest point, and the thing I liked most about TFA is that most of the leads seemed like ordinary fucking people.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 16:48:29 GMT -5
Great stuff! I noticed some of the things Brin complains about, but never heard that quote from Lucas about a "good despot". Wow...that explains a lot. And in retrospect, his thoughts on Yoda and Mace Windu are pretty spot-on. The whole Mace/Palpatine/Anakin confrontation is part of my main reason for despising RotS - because Anakin is all "Oh no, I let Mace get killed, I was wrong, Palpatine IS evil...oh, but I guess I am now too, better go murder all the children then!" WHAT?! NO! You have just eliminated all chance of me sympathizing with Vader in the original trilogy unless I ignore all of that bullshit.
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Post by ganews on Jan 15, 2016 17:25:32 GMT -5
Darn it, when does Obi-Wan offer to teach Han?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 18:59:28 GMT -5
Darn it, when does Obi-Wan offer to teach Han? On the Falcon when Han is watching Luke's training, I'm pretty sure.
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Post by ganews on Jan 15, 2016 20:35:54 GMT -5
Darn it, when does Obi-Wan offer to teach Han? On the Falcon when Han is watching Luke's training, I'm pretty sure. I just watched that clip on youtube and didn't see it.
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Post by Ron Howard Voice on Jan 17, 2016 18:15:01 GMT -5
Just saw it. And just spent...wow...110 minutes reading this thread instead of getting work done. The Good1. Best writing and acting of the franchise so far. Some seriously fun action sequences, and I even liked the new cantina. 2. Treatment of characters from the original trilogy is good. Sentimental, but not over-the-top. 3. It was interesting that, after the hand-holding conversation at the very start, every act of physical touch throughout the movie was INCREDIBLY important. Any time characters took each other's hands, or hugged, or ... Han and Kylo Ren ... - this is a movie where physical touch is super meaningful, even symbolic. (It's important, for instance, that Kylo Ren exerts the Force on people's minds but does not touch them. Loneliness.) 4. Great visuals, use of color, even good CGI. I liked that they filmed a lightsaber duel in a snowfall - beautiful. 5. Millennium Falcon! Rian Johnson is going to blow it up, isn't he? That will make me way sadder than Han Solo dying. The Bad1. Snoke is dumb. I don't like Snoke. It's just a bigger, uglier, more inexplicable Palpatine. Some of the other imitations of the original series have been cleverly updated in ways - Luke's a girl now, Han is two people, Darth Vader is an awkward loser MRA type, etc. - but Snoke isn't really a clever tweak. He's Voldemort in Space. 2. The lightsaber duels were filmed very poorly. Choreographed fairly well, but filmed with that chaotic mess of "style" that makes so many action movies so incoherent. 3. The new musical material isn't anywhere near as good as the old stuff was. John Williams phoned it in. 4. How is it that there's seriously only one copy of a map of a major percentage of the known galaxy? I mean, that is a HUGE chunk of galaxy for everybody to go "huh, we forgot where everything is, over there." 5. The Death Star Planet made no sense (see end of this post). [spoiler][/spoiler] Further thoughts: Leia may have hung back in this movie, and Luke further, but Kylo was Leia's son and Luke's pupil - he is far from finished with a previous generation's disappointment and fears and hopes.
...this will be the psychodrama of Return of Jedi's Throne Room over three movies, won't it.
I am worried about this too. It's strange that they put the "there is still some light in Kylo Ren" stuff up front. The original Star Wars trilogy had basically two big twists: (1) I am your father, and (2) The Return of the Jedi actually meaning Vader. And now here we are in the new movies and those two twists are out in the open already. We already know who's whose father, and we already know Kylo Ren could be turned back. Maybe. So, now what? Episode VIII will obviously have Yoda/Luke training Luke/Rey. Will it also copy the storyline of Luke/Rey leaving training to go rescue everyone else after Vader/Kylo Ren turns the tables? @supernintendochalmer I did think the film did a bad job explaining What planet the New Order blew up. It's funny because we actually get to see the panicked last moments of that world, but what it is and what the stakes are of losing it are more opaque than the death of Alderaan (where we never visit) in the first movie. According to Reddit the world is Chandrila, the home planet of Mon Mothma and the capital of the New Republic. It's in the Hosnian System, which I guess is where the other exploded worlds are.
Besides Jakku, the film doesn't really establish which planets are which honestly. Took me a while to get that Starkiller Base is also a planet. 1. Somehow seeing all the people on the blown-up planet made me appreciate the artfulness of the Alderaan destruction even more. 2. I thought the New Death Star was a new Death Star. I honestly thought, "Why the fuck did they put mountains on the Death Star? That makes no sense" for its first 4-5 appearances. Even after Domnhall Gleeson did his big "the weapon is ready!" speech, I was still thinking, "It's really weird that they had that on the outside of the ship instead of in some sort of secret chamber." 1. Good script. Aside from some awkward exposition at the start, the characters and situations feel natural. No more 7th grade I, Claudius fanfic. 2. Physicality. The models and props have weight and impact. The actors have sets to interact with. There's a tension watching that I don't remember feeling in any blockbuster film before. 3. The lightsaber duel doesn't feel like some bullshit out of Cirque de Soleil. It's an actual fight. 11. My biggest issue is Starkiller Base. It's just another Death Star, but it's a planet. The visuals are cool, I guess, but it's really just an excuse for a climax to partly disguise that this is just part one. For that part I like it, it's nice to get a bit of instant gratification in a tentpole franchise, but for the whole planet to go all 2012 at the end was questionable. I disagree with a couple of these. This was, by far, the best Star Wars script ever, but there was still some awkward stuff ("They're coming!" or Han saying "The resistance is here!" etc.). Also, in general, there wasn't anything especially quotable. For instance, at one point Han even says "Never tell me the odds," except in a way less catchy witty way. Seemingly everything from the original trilogy was quotable ("He doesn't like you...I don't like you either") whereas this was more effective but less catchy. Physicality - you don't remember ANY blockbuster film where models and props have weight, actors have sets, and the world feels real?? Not Fury Road, not Jaws, not the original theatrical version of Empire, not a 70s shootout thriller like French Connection?? (Side note: Fury Road seems to have made Two Protagonists Who First Take Each Other for Enemies and Fight Before Introducing Themselves into a trend.) I thought the lightsaber duels were well-choreographed but badly filmed. Too jumpy and action-obscuring. Should have studied how Kershner filmed the great lightsaber duel in Empire - or how Jackie Chan filmed fight scenes. - One thing I haven't seen stated, and which bummed me most about the entire movie, is that I didn't feel there was a single memorable action scene. Not one. Probably the chase through the Jakku market was best, but beyond that... like, say what you will about the prequel trilogy, but there were a bunch of awesome action sequences. The pod race. The arena battle with those big monsters. The space battle and saber fight with Grevious. The escape from Jakku was pretty cool, and I liked how Han kept shooting people at the cantina with this "ugh, I have to do this again?" face. (Aaaaaaaaand just now realized that Han Solo begins and ends, almost, by shooting people at cantinas.) And it was funny how they handled the recurring gag of arriving/departing at light speed even though that was clearly a bad idea. Now, the Part Where Ron Howard Complains About Planet Death Star1. So are they going to build another Starkiller Base in Episode IX? 2. As mentioned above, I really did think it was another Death Star, even after they showed General Gleeson talking to troops surrounded by mountains. It took a long time for me to realize they hadn't just put a ton of mountains on the Death Star. 3. If the gun works by sucking in the sun and shooting the sun out at another system...isn't that something you can only use once? I mean, how many suns do they have?? In the movie, they try to use it twice. Does that mean they had a super huge sun? Do they plan to slingshot the planet into another solar system whenever they need to shoot it again?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 17, 2016 19:12:05 GMT -5
3. If the gun works by sucking in the sun and shooting the sun out at another system...isn't that something you can only use once? I mean, how many suns do they have?? In the movie, they try to use it twice. Does that mean they had a super huge sun? Do they plan to slingshot the planet into another solar system whenever they need to shoot it again? I keep moaning about this in discussions of this film. I have to stop. It is so useless. But still.... WHY? Why is it like this??? Someone elsewhere told me, "It is Star Wars, not Star Trek! It is fantasy! It doesn't matter how it works. No one argues about how the Millennium Falcon is powered!" But... it doesn't *matter* how the Millennium Falcon is powered. It isn't a major plot point. This IS, and it makes no sense! It is the whole climax of the film! Was there absolutely no one at Lucasfilm or Disney who ever said, "Hey, you guys, this makes no sense!"
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Post by ganews on Jan 17, 2016 19:16:35 GMT -5
Someone elsewhere told me, "It is Star Wars, not Star Trek! It is fantasy! It doesn't matter how it works. No one argues about how the Millennium Falcon is powered!" Well now they're the same (can't I just lay off with the Abrams complaints already?).
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Post by Ron Howard Voice on Jan 17, 2016 20:21:53 GMT -5
3. If the gun works by sucking in the sun and shooting the sun out at another system...isn't that something you can only use once? I mean, how many suns do they have?? In the movie, they try to use it twice. Does that mean they had a super huge sun? Do they plan to slingshot the planet into another solar system whenever they need to shoot it again? Someone elsewhere told me, "It is Star Wars, not Star Trek! It is fantasy! It doesn't matter how it works. No one argues about how the Millennium Falcon is powered!" What! That's not even the biggest difference between Star Wars and Star Trek! Which, by the way, was articulated by Roger Ebert: "As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies."
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 17, 2016 20:46:29 GMT -5
Someone elsewhere told me, "It is Star Wars, not Star Trek! It is fantasy! It doesn't matter how it works. No one argues about how the Millennium Falcon is powered!" ...of course they do. Hell, you want to get a room full of tech geek Star Wars fans in a lather, ask them exactly how long Darth Vader's Super Star Destroyer is. 4. How is it that there's seriously only one copy of a map of a major percentage of the known galaxy? I mean, that is a HUGE chunk of galaxy for everybody to go "huh, we forgot where everything is, over there." I think the important part of the map was Luke's path searching for Jedi knicknacks, which is apparently not so much major knowledge (according to since released background material, Max von Sydow's character was important in helping Luke research the mostly lost-or-suppressed knowledge of Jedi history.)
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Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Jan 17, 2016 21:02:15 GMT -5
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 17, 2016 21:20:58 GMT -5
Pick that number if you want to throw chum in the water.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 23:39:46 GMT -5
Pick that number if you want to throw chum in the water. Okay, you have to explain that, because how can there be an actual argument about it? It's right here! Executor-class Star Dreadnought
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 17, 2016 23:55:17 GMT -5
Someone elsewhere told me, "It is Star Wars, not Star Trek! It is fantasy! It doesn't matter how it works. No one argues about how the Millennium Falcon is powered!" ...of course they do. Hell, you want to get a room full of tech geek Star Wars fans in a lather, ask them exactly how long Darth Vader's Super Star Destroyer is. 4. How is it that there's seriously only one copy of a map of a major percentage of the known galaxy? I mean, that is a HUGE chunk of galaxy for everybody to go "huh, we forgot where everything is, over there." I think the important part of the map was Luke's path searching for Jedi knicknacks, which is apparently not so much major knowledge (according to since released background material, Max von Sydow's character was important in helping Luke research the mostly lost-or-suppressed knowledge of Jedi history.) Actually, now that I'm thinking about this, it IS weird. I mean, it is weird in a couple ways. 1. There is a huge chunk of the galaxy that is unfamiliar to Han Solo? That the Millennium Falcon can reach in, apparently, 30 seconds? 2. If the First Order had the rest of the map, the section R2D2 had, and this was the only section missing, could they not have explored and charted that chunk over the last 18 years, or so?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 2:40:20 GMT -5
My last free night before basic training what did I end up doing? Going to see Star Wars TFA for the third time with a friend who had yet to see it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 2:46:17 GMT -5
Here is something I caught on this third viewing that I don't think I've ever seen talked about before. The place where Kylo Ren put his helmet in the movie, like after he got done interrogating rey and took it off. It was a stand that had ashes in it, like dust and dirt it seems, but it is ashes. I think that is where the melted down darth helmet was before. Putting two and two together...... not only does he have Vader's helmet he has the actual ashes of Darth Vader. CREEPY AS FUCK.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 3:09:33 GMT -5
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Jan 18, 2016 6:22:31 GMT -5
Every question about how they missed a whole chunk of galaxy or how fast a ship can get there can be answered by remembering one thing - in both Star Trek and Star Wars, JJ Abrams has consistently shown that he does not know and does not care how big a galaxy is.
Spock is on a totally different ice planet that is nevertheless apparently orbiting Vulcan.
Everyone can see Star Killer Base destroying that other planet. The weapon's beam is visibly moving through the sky, like it's the trail of an airplane in the atmosphere.
You're supposed to ignore the science part!
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jan 18, 2016 8:22:09 GMT -5
2. If the First Order had the rest of the map, the section R2D2 had, and this was the only section missing, could they not have explored and charted that chunk over the last 18 years, or so? That bothered me less - all they new was that he was somewhere in that chunk. Even if they mapped it out, they were looking for one person. They might have figured out where some of the planets were, but they probably also couldn't have found Luke.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 18, 2016 9:35:09 GMT -5
The history of the argument can be found here, in the Behind the Scenes segment. Actually, now that I'm thinking about this, it IS weird. I mean, it is weird in a couple ways. 1. There is a huge chunk of the galaxy that is unfamiliar to Han Solo? That the Millennium Falcon can reach in, apparently, 30 seconds? No, there's a path that Luke took that is unfamiliar to the Millennium Falcon. It is, after all, a galaxy with thousands of inhabitable planets and Luke could have wound up on a countless number of them. It's not that this area of the galaxy is unfamiliar, but the route Luke took - that is, going after Jedi artefacts and finally finding the first Jedi Temple - is a route unfamiliar to Han or most anyone else. It'd be a bit like if Indiana Jones went missing, and it turned out he discovered the Garden of Eden somewhere in Chad. That I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 10:06:39 GMT -5
Ah, interesting. That's funny...I played WEG Star Wars quite a bit, but we never dealt with an SSD in the game, so I guess the discrepancy never came up, but I'm pretty sure I would have argued just based on ESB that 8km was too short.
And thanks for your thoughts on Luke's map...that makes a bit more sense to me now. I think it was still handled a bit clumsily due to JJ's lack of galaxy size competence, but it does help.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 18, 2016 10:18:29 GMT -5
Yeah it was clumsy. Obviously they could have filled in that part of the map with the stars at any time, the only part that was actually missing was the line leading to Luke's location.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jan 18, 2016 10:51:07 GMT -5
Not that it makes the map stuff any less dumb, but wasn't the Resistance unaware that they even had the rest of the map? When they first look at the piece that BB-8 has, wasn't the whole conversation that it will take them forever to figure out what the starting point actually is without any greater context?
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 18, 2016 14:46:09 GMT -5
Here is an interesting theory about the map: www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Wars-Force-Awakens-Mysterious-Map-What-It-Might-Really-Mean-101247.htmlEssentially it is not a map to Luke, but one that even Vader was working on. A map to the first Jedi temple. R2D2 has the same portion of the map that the First Order does. This is either because he hacked into the Death Star in IV or because Luke gave it to him. Either together or independently Luke and Lor San Tekka (force church historian) figure out the last bit. Luke goes off not in real exile but to guard the temple against the Knights of Ren. R2D2 wakes up because Rey shows up.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 18, 2016 15:28:04 GMT -5
Actually, now that I'm thinking about this, it IS weird. I mean, it is weird in a couple ways. 1. There is a huge chunk of the galaxy that is unfamiliar to Han Solo? That the Millennium Falcon can reach in, apparently, 30 seconds? No, there's a path that Luke took that is unfamiliar to the Millennium Falcon. It is, after all, a galaxy with thousands of inhabitable planets and Luke could have wound up on a countless number of them. It's not that this area of the galaxy is unfamiliar, but the route Luke took - that is, going after Jedi artefacts and finally finding the first Jedi Temple - is a route unfamiliar to Han or most anyone else. But doesn't Han say in the movie that he doesn't recognize that section of the map? Damn, I'm not going to have to go see the movie a 4th time, am I? And, as for the First Order being able to chart that section but not find Luke.... I mean, how long has Luke been gone? How many recon ships does the First Order have? It isn't like they have to land on the planet and physically search every square inch of ground. Can't they scan from space? Or is this only from Star Trek? I mean, I remember that the Empire had trouble finding the Rebels prior to Ep V.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jan 18, 2016 15:35:14 GMT -5
No, there's a path that Luke took that is unfamiliar to the Millennium Falcon. It is, after all, a galaxy with thousands of inhabitable planets and Luke could have wound up on a countless number of them. It's not that this area of the galaxy is unfamiliar, but the route Luke took - that is, going after Jedi artefacts and finally finding the first Jedi Temple - is a route unfamiliar to Han or most anyone else. But doesn't Han say in the movie that he doesn't recognize that section of the map? Damn, I'm not going to have to go see the movie a 4th time, am I? And, as for the First Order being able to chart that section but not find Luke.... I mean, how long has Luke been gone? How many recon ships does the First Order have? It isn't like they have to land on the planet and physically search every square inch of ground. Can't they scan from space? Or is this only from Star Trek? I mean, I remember that the Empire had trouble finding the Rebels prior to Ep V. For one specific person? For as much as people in this thread enjoying shitting on JJ's inability to grasp the immense scale of a whole galaxy (and rightfully so), a lot of you sure expect every character to be an expert in obscure stellar cartography. An old pilot like Han, I'm sure he'd recognize a map of most of the "main" systems, but Star Wars has always resided in a galaxy with lots of hidden little corners. It might be the easiest of the sci-fi universes to vanish without a trace in, if that's what one was looking to do.
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Post by Jimmy James on Jan 18, 2016 16:11:29 GMT -5
[spoiler][/spoiler] Further thoughts: Leia may have hung back in this movie, and Luke further, but Kylo was Leia's son and Luke's pupil - he is far from finished with a previous generation's disappointment and fears and hopes.
...this will be the psychodrama of Return of Jedi's Throne Room over three movies, won't it.
I am worried about this too. It's strange that they put the "there is still some light in Kylo Ren" stuff up front. The original Star Wars trilogy had basically two big twists: (1) I am your father, and (2) The Return of the Jedi actually meaning Vader. And now here we are in the new movies and those two twists are out in the open already. We already know who's whose father, and we already know Kylo Ren could be turned back. Maybe. So, now what? Episode VIII will obviously have Yoda/Luke training Luke/Rey. Will it also copy the storyline of Luke/Rey leaving training to go rescue everyone else after Vader/Kylo Ren turns the tables? I've been meaning to reply to this thread for a while, on this topic. Kylo Ren's redemption will obviously be a big part of the next two movies. For the sake of making a bolder and less obvious prediction, I'm going to argue he may already be on his way out of the Dark Side. JJ may have said killing Han was supposed to be a moment we saw him as lost to the Dark Side forever, but remember when everyone thought JJ was remaking Wrath of Khan, and he was all, "No, we're not doing Khan", but then he totally was, and he was all like, "WHAT A TWIST, RIGHT?" I put no stock in his claims. People have talked before about Anakin / Darth Vader being the one foretold to bring balance to the Force, and that he ultimately does this by killing the Emperor, effectively ending the Sith. (There may be alternate interpretations to "bringing balance to the Force" as well.) I'm not sure if there would have been another way to fulfill the prophecy, as you would have to kill both master and apprentice Sith in rapid succession. All the other times they killed one evil Jedi- Maul or Count Dooku - a new apprentice quickly filled their place. There's a part of me that wonders if this, eliminating dark Jedi from the galaxy, is the work of Vader that Ren says he will finish. Vader got rid of the Sith, but there are evidently other pockets of malevolence. More villainous interpretations of Vader's work that Ren will finish, like eliminating the regular Jedi, seem more like the Emperor's plan than Vader's. I really like the psychodrama of that throne room scene in Jedi, and sometimes I feel like I have a slightly different reading of it on each successive viewing. Vader has been plotting to overthrow Palpatine since at least Empire Strikes Back, when he suggests as much to Luke, but is there a point where he decided to do it for the general good rather than to claim the throne for himself? I think saying he orchestrated that whole showdown, with the intention of wiping out his old master, might be giving him too much credit. However, you can also draw a distinction between our reading of the film as an audience versus Kylo Ren's reading of it as history. Maybe he's working from a less complete version of it than what we've seen, and is more inclined to view Anakin Skywalker favorably as someone who eradicated the Sith than as a tryanical maniac. Maybe Luke, in his effort to see the good in everyone, gave his nephew a more rose-colored representation of his grandfather, and now he's gone deep-cover as a Knight of Ren to destroy that order as well. And in that case, killing his father is going to be a moment similar to Snape offing Dumbledore- forever after, when Snoke questions his devotion to their evil cause, he can point to that and say "I killed my dad for you, what more commitment do you need?" This of course does nothing to help Ron Howard Voice's complaint the Snoke is space-Voldemort. In Kylo Ren's defense, he seems less evil than Vader so far. They made a gag of him taking out his frustration on a bank of computers, when Vader would have just killed a subordinate, which makes me think he's not as sinister as his idol. (Aside- we see Vader start to choke Admiral Motti in the original Star Wars, but he's a lot freer with how he does this in Empire. I'm not sure if I had considered until now that this may be due to a lot of green officers being promoted too quickly, after the large number of vacancies presumably left by the destruction of the Death Star.) What could turn into a twist out of this is that he had intended to fake it as a dark Jedi as part of some larger plot, only to find himself too tempted and eventually becoming irretrievably evil. I would be excited to see if this is something Luke knew about, and if it had been done with his blessing or against his objections, either of which might leave him tormented and in need of a long stay on a deserted planet staring at the ocean and feeling ways about stuff.
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Post by nowimnothing on Jan 18, 2016 19:21:12 GMT -5
I think it is possible that bringing balance to the force could refer to Vader's transitions from light to dark and back. It could also refer to whatever macguffin is at the edi temple that Vader and then Luke searched for. This item or knowledge would also point to some way of incorporating both aspects of the force in one person without succumbing to the flaws in the light and dark sides. Think the Mystics and the Skeksis at the end of The Dark Crystal.
It certainly was not what Lucas was going for but it could easily be ret-conned by Disney and helps tie all nine movies together.
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