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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 1, 2019 10:56:38 GMT -5
So, what was that stinger at the end of the credits that sounded like someone working metal on a forge? A callback to tony making his first set of armor, or a teaser for something in phase IV? No one seems to know. That makes me think, though, that if Stane never tried to get tony killed, he wouldn't have become iron man, and most of the MCU stuff would not have worked out as well as it did. So, we all owe Obadiah some gratitude. I thought I saw an article confirming it was a sound clip of Tony forging the original armor in Iron Man.
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 1, 2019 10:59:51 GMT -5
I just think the can of worms was opened like...5 years ago or whenever Prime started making it's big push and of all the things to make a stand on, the over-proliferation of streaming services seems like on of the sillier ones. We had a brief window where Netflix kind of broke the old business model and it's been pretty great, but I think it was always inevitable that we'd start drifting back to paying for a bundle of different things, except instead of channels they'll be streaming libraries.
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oppy all along
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Who's been messing up everything? It was oppy all along
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Post by oppy all along on May 1, 2019 18:46:55 GMT -5
From a Q&A the Russos did. I was right! All hail the me.
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Post by Nudeviking on May 1, 2019 20:23:19 GMT -5
So, what was that stinger at the end of the credits that sounded like someone working metal on a forge? A callback to tony making his first set of armor, or a teaser for something in phase IV? No one seems to know. That makes me think, though, that if Stane never tried to get tony killed, he wouldn't have become iron man, and most of the MCU stuff would not have worked out as well as it did. So, we all owe Obadiah some gratitude. So in a way capitalism and the military-industrial complex were the real heroes all along...
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oppy all along
TI Forumite
Who's been messing up everything? It was oppy all along
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Post by oppy all along on May 1, 2019 23:21:40 GMT -5
The Five Stages of HulkDenial - Hulk (2003), The Incredible Hulk (2008) - "I'm not the Hulk I'm not the Hulk I'm not the Hulk if I run away and desperately avoid stressful situations you can't make me become the Hulk." Anger - The Avengers (2012) - "You guys know that I turn into a giant green unstoppable rage monster when I get stressed or angry right? WHY DO YOU KEEP CHASING ME?" Bargaining - Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) - "Maybe if we develop code words and I have a weird thing with Black Widow then the Hulk will be chill and generally be my attack dog." Depression - Thor: Ragnarok (2017), Avengers: Infinity War (2018) - "Fine, I guess I'll surrender my soul to the Hulk since you all like him better. What does it even matter anyway?" Acceptance - Avengers: Endgame (2019) - "So yeah now I'm the only emotionally stable member of the Avengers and I wear very plus-sized athletic wear and I'm more confidence and self-assured than I've ever been thanks to the Hulk." Hawkeye's New LookCredit to the hair and makeup and costuming department. That is indeed a man who has lost everything and turned to vigilantism. "Why hello tattoo artist, give me an arm-sleeve that conveys I have nothing and nobody to live for."
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Post by Floyd D Barber on May 1, 2019 23:55:32 GMT -5
Regarding Happy and the "cheeseburgers" comment:
From back in the 60's when I was buying Tales of Suspense, and later Iron Man comics, I remember that Happy and Pepper got married at some point. I think they became a thing after Happy got the shit stomped out of him when he jumped in to help Tony when he was fighting Titanium Man. Pepper saw them both laying there, pretty messed up, and ran to Happy instead of Tony .
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Post by Nudeviking on May 2, 2019 0:16:02 GMT -5
So I've been thinking a lot about the return of Ant-Man today.
First off, how many of the 14,000,605 futures that Doctor Strange looked at in Infinity War do you think featured a random regular-ass rat turning on a portal thus freeing Ant-Man? I personally like to think that that single act was the 1 in 14,000,605 that he saw because all the other shit it seemed like didn't go according to plan but still ended up working out in the end. For example Hulk '12 being angry at stairs allowed Loki '12 to abscond with one of the Infinity Stones and Nebula '23 using the same cloud server as Nebula '14 allowed Thanos '14 to figure out the plan, neither of which ended up causing a failure condition. More over Captain America, Scarlet Witch, and Captain Marvel were all able to go toe to toe with Thanos '14 without dying so it's clear that any of them (as well as Thor) could probably have finished Thanos '14 off with a bit more effort. Any random ass Avenger at the end of that final battle could have put the gauntlet on and snapped Thanos '14 and Co. out of existence. It was that one rat that was the 1 in 14,000,605.
Secondly when Scott "Ant-Man" Lang left the storage facility why did he only take a random wagon full of junk rather than his van? He clearly went back to get the van later since it ended up being critical to the movie that followed and the scaring a kid on a bike scene would have worked better if it was a weird dude in an abduction van rather than a dude with a wagon of stuff. So why'd he initially leave the van behind? The battery wasn't dead since the rat turned all the stuff on via walking on the dashboard, and if he just needed gas or something wouldn't it have been easier to just walk without the wagon of junk to get some gas and then come back to the storage place and load up the van and drive out? If he somehow didn't have keys why didn't he call someone who might have had the keys bring them over? There's no goddamn reason why he would have not driven the van out of the storage place from the jump.
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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on May 2, 2019 1:28:17 GMT -5
I loved this 3,000.
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Post by Celebith on May 2, 2019 5:46:01 GMT -5
I just think the can of worms was opened like...5 years ago or whenever Prime started making it's big push and of all the things to make a stand on, the over-proliferation of streaming services seems like on of the sillier ones. We had a brief window where Netflix kind of broke the old business model and it's been pretty great, but I think it was always inevitable that we'd start drifting back to paying for a bundle of different things, except instead of channels they'll be streaming libraries. It's only ineviteber if people give in and decide to start paying Disney and other enterprises for stuff that they were already getting as part of a package somewhere else. Three streaming services is already more than I need to pay for per month. I think you misunderestimate how much I hate Disney as a corporate entity, and also paying for things, but also, I boycott a ton of things, so one more isn't really so much 'choosing a hill' as much as adding some more dirt to the hill I'm already on. But if you and millions of others want to spend more to get the same things you were already getting, I'm not going to stop you.
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on May 2, 2019 9:11:14 GMT -5
From a Q&A the Russos did. I was right! All hail the me. Link to the whole thing?
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 2, 2019 9:11:23 GMT -5
Also, I don't know if it was intended as a flex by Marvel or not, but Endgame really drove home just how many big-time actors they've managed to cast into relatively small supporting parts.
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Post by The Sensational She-Hulk on May 2, 2019 9:31:46 GMT -5
I liked a lot about the movie - it was cool getting to see certain narrative gaps filled or extensions of previous scenes that give more context, and I thought it was well acted and well designed, tying up a very large number of disparate threads in a cohesive manner. I found myself quite affected by Scott Lang's arc, even though I haven't seen either Ant-Man film, and he and Rhodey were the MVPs for me. Rhodey's little strangle motion when talking about going back in time and killing baby Thanos made me laugh really, really hard. The set design and special effects were pretty fantastic. Loved getting to see Howard Stark and Yvette Nicole Brown's little cameo in that scene. The final battle against Thanos was dope. I knew it was coming and I had the idea that everyone would come rushing out of a portal just in time to save the day, but it was really satisfying regardless. Cheered when Steve wielded Mjolnir and Thor's little "I knew it!" Also loved Steve passing on the shield to Sam, because I am crossing my fingers we'll get some Brubaker-style entertainment out of the Falcon and Winter Soldier series.
Also, Jarvis! I wasn't expecting him, but I was delighted that he showed up. I adored him in Agent Carter.
I didn't care for the "haha, Thor is a fat drunk" jokes. They were juvenile and had seriously diminishing returns, and it undid all of Taika Waititi's hard work in Ragnarok. He went through something very serious in losing his family, his home, and then half of the already-small group of survivors he had managed to save, and it just felt sort of cheap to turn his very real grief over what Thor perceives as his failure into one long beer joke. I just don't consider someone using alcohol and deflection to self-medicate their depression all that funny. I did like seeing Frigga again, though. What a lovely character.
Could have done without Natasha having to sacrifice herself so gruesomely. I know it was meant to echo Gamora's death, but I really didn't need to see either of their broken bodies like that. It was PG-13, so it wasn't gory, but it still made me uncomfortable. And also, kind of gross that the first female Avenger apparently had no life outside of that and felt her life wasn't worth as much because she had no real family. I definitely cried legit tears over her death.
Similarly, Clint becoming a homicidal maniac because his entire family got fridged rubbed me the wrong way. He decides to become the Punisher, but make it edgy samurai, and never once experiences consequences? Ugh. I don't mind this version of Hawkeye being a family man (though I would prefer Fraction's disaster dork) but I do mind that tired-ass old revenge fantasy shit.
Gamora and Nebula should have been the ones who got to kill Thanos.
Carol was cool. Could have used more of her beyond the deus-ex-machina role. Should have been her wielding the Infinity Gauntlet.
Related, cried a little about Tony and then remembered I hate him, so I stopped. Didn't appreciate how he was willing to let everyone else go to hell as long as HIS family was safe. Tried to telepathically murder him when he did that little speech about how he wanted to put Iron Man suits everywhere in the world but the rest were too concerned with "their precious freedoms." Which, first, ugh, and second, this is why Steve was right in Civil War, damn it. He only decided to help after looking sadly at a picture of Peter Parker, who to my recollection he treated like garbage most of the time. And also, you know, how Tony brought a literal child to fight a bunch of adults in Berlin after making him promise not to tell his legal guardian. That's shady at best.
Also, it would have been nice to see a memorial service for Natasha too. Even just a quick scene of them congregating around a big photo of her on an easel in a funeral-home type setting would have been fine. It just feels like she got done kind of dirty by this movie. I'm not a fan of Scarlett Johansson as a person, but now for spite I'm gonna see the Black Widow movie like ten times.
The 2012 Steve vs. 2021 Steve fight was awesome. At first I was like, "oh god, why is Steve always fighting people on a damn bridge, is he a Skywalker?" and then I realized what it was supposed to mirror. The one thing I didn't care for was Steve getting 2012 Steve to let go with "Bucky's alive" and then promptly erasing his memory with the scepter. I know why he had to, but it was a dirty trick anyway and didn't really feel in character? Steve isn't the kind of guy who plays with other people's emotions.
The whole ending...I've read the explanations in this thread, and another friend linked me to a detailed analysis, which I appreciated. But it still doesn't make a goddamn bit of logistical sense to me at all. And this isn't like, a ship thing. I loved seeing Steve and Peggy finally get their dance. It just left me with too many questions and not enough answers. It should have altered the timeline much more significantly, because I can't see Steve or Peggy deciding to let HYDRA flourish right under their noses, because Steve has that knowledge and would tell Peggy right away, and I also can't see them just leaving Bucky to rot as HYDRA's living weapon for 70 years. But because Bucky's the same age at the end of the movie, instead of older, they apparently DID just do that?? And it undid all of Peggy's hard work in managing and working through her grief in Agent Carter, which is a show that I loved and is important to me. I think all this gets under my skin because it strikes me as so out of character for both Steve and Peggy. They're not so selfish as this.
For all my complaints, I certainly don't think it was a bad movie. It was much less of a mess than Infinity War, and there was a lot to like. So I'll keep doing what I always do and ignore the parts I don't like - just like I do with the comics!
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 2, 2019 10:18:16 GMT -5
... Related, cried a little about Tony and then remembered I hate him, so I stopped. Didn't appreciate how he was willing to let everyone else go to hell as long as HIS family was safe. Tried to telepathically murder him when he did that little speech about how he wanted to put Iron Man suits everywhere in the world but the rest were too concerned with "their precious freedoms." Which, first, ugh, and second, this is why Steve was right in Civil War, damn it. He only decided to help after looking sadly at a picture of Peter Parker, who to my recollection he treated like garbage most of the time. And also, you know, how Tony brought a literal child to fight a bunch of adults in Berlin after making him promise not to tell his legal guardian. That's shady at best. Also, it would have been nice to see a memorial service for Natasha too. Even just a quick scene of them congregating around a big photo of her on an easel in a funeral-home type setting would have been fine. It just feels like she got done kind of dirty by this movie. I'm not a fan of Scarlett Johansson as a person, but now for spite I'm gonna see the Black Widow movie like ten times. ... The whole ending...I've read the explanations in this thread, and another friend linked me to a detailed analysis, which I appreciated. But it still doesn't make a goddamn bit of logistical sense to me at all. And this isn't like, a ship thing. I loved seeing Steve and Peggy finally get their dance. It just left me with too many questions and not enough answers. It should have altered the timeline much more significantly, because I can't see Steve or Peggy deciding to let HYDRA flourish right under their noses, because Steve has that knowledge and would tell Peggy right away, and I also can't see them just leaving Bucky to rot as HYDRA's living weapon for 70 years. But because Bucky's the same age at the end of the movie, instead of older, they apparently DID just do that?? And it undid all of Peggy's hard work in managing and working through her grief in Agent Carter, which is a show that I loved and is important to me. I think all this gets under my skin because it strikes me as so out of character for both Steve and Peggy. They're not so selfish as this. A lot of the movie felt built, I guess understandably enough, to wring as many tears out of Tony Stark dying as possible. Maybe Marvel will really surprise me and spend a movie or series really driving into the trauma caused by that 5 year rapture/Resurrection gap, but I doubt it. Like you said, only agreeing to do the plan in a way that keeps his family intact seems crazy selfish. Scott missed 5 years of his daughter's life! That doesn't matter at all? And I suspect that they didn't want the focus taken of him and Steve because Widow, in the real world, is sticking around for at least one more movie. But in the context of the movie it is fucking bizarre that it gets glossed over. I think it makes perfect sense that Cap created a 2nd timeline in which the world thinks Cap re-surfaced after 20-30 years instead of 60-70 and immediately set about rooting out HYDRA influence in S.H.I.E.L.D. with Peggy. It explains why he even has a shield to give Sam (it never would have been destroyed in the alternate timeline). I would imagine alternate earth Hank Pym and Howard Stark would have been able to confirm his time-travel/alternate timeline theory and would have set about proactively preventing most of the main MCU timeline. Then when he sense the end is coming near, he knows he has to go back to the 'real' timeline and close the loop so that everyone isn't wondering about what happened to him or if the stones were successfully returned. I think the only real lingering question is the fate of the still-frozen Steve Rogers in the alternate timeline, but there are multiple ways that could go that would make enough sense.
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 2, 2019 10:21:49 GMT -5
I just think the can of worms was opened like...5 years ago or whenever Prime started making it's big push and of all the things to make a stand on, the over-proliferation of streaming services seems like on of the sillier ones. We had a brief window where Netflix kind of broke the old business model and it's been pretty great, but I think it was always inevitable that we'd start drifting back to paying for a bundle of different things, except instead of channels they'll be streaming libraries. It's only ineviteber if people give in and decide to start paying Disney and other enterprises for stuff that they were already getting as part of a package somewhere else. Three streaming services is already more than I need to pay for per month. I think you misunderestimate how much I hate Disney as a corporate entity, and also paying for things, but also, I boycott a ton of things, so one more isn't really so much 'choosing a hill' as much as adding some more dirt to the hill I'm already on. But if you and millions of others want to spend more to get the same things you were already getting, I'm not going to stop you. I guess I just don't think this is much of a new thing under the sun. It's the streaming age equivalent of Disney 'vaulting' their movies so they can goose sales of copies of Little Mermaid every time a new video format was released. The only realistic way I think you could prevent the way things were going would be some sort of regulatory mechanism that kept content creators/providers and delivery platforms from being owned by the same entity.
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Post by The Sensational She-Hulk on May 2, 2019 10:44:59 GMT -5
A lot of the movie felt built, I guess understandably enough, to wring as many tears out of Tony Stark dying as possible. Maybe Marvel will really surprise me and spend a movie or series really driving into the trauma caused by that 5 year rapture/Resurrection gap, but I doubt it. Like you said, only agreeing to do the plan in a way that keeps his family intact seems crazy selfish. Scott missed 5 years of his daughter's life! That doesn't matter at all? And I suspect that they didn't want the focus taken of him and Steve because Widow, in the real world, is sticking around for at least one more movie. But in the context of the movie it is fucking bizarre that it gets glossed over. I think it makes perfect sense that Cap created a 2nd timeline in which the world thinks Cap re-surfaced after 20-30 years instead of 60-70 and immediately set about rooting out HYDRA influence in S.H.I.E.L.D. with Peggy. It explains why he even has a shield to give Sam (it never would have been destroyed in the alternate timeline). I would imagine alternate earth Hank Pym and Howard Stark would have been able to confirm his time-travel/alternate timeline theory and would have set about proactively preventing most of the main MCU timeline. Then when he sense the end is coming near, he knows he has to go back to the 'real' timeline and close the loop so that everyone isn't wondering about what happened to him or if the stones were successfully returned. I think the only real lingering question is the fate of the still-frozen Steve Rogers in the alternate timeline, but there are multiple ways that could go that would make enough sense. It really did, and I was so mad when I realized I was being manipulated. But Tony Stark is fundamentally a selfish character who is generally only motivated by guilt and never understands that anything he has ever done is morally or ethically wrong, because obviously he is a ~~genius and therefore always right. Like, fuck you dude, you don't get to bitch about people wanting to preserve their personal freedom when you're the one who almost blew up the world after accidentally creating a murder robot! People would like the freedom to NOT DIE because of your dumbass mistakes that you constantly refuse to take personal responsibility for. I was surprised by how affected I was by Paul Rudd's performance as Scott. He made me genuinely care about this poor bastard who missed five years of his daughter growing up and now will have to try and figure out where to go from there. It's also partly why I'm so annoyed by Thor's handling. He's dealing with something monumentally catastrophic and it's played for laughs. Sorry, it still just doesn't really make sense to me. It's just too hard for me to try and wrap my head around any of this. Probably because the whole theory of time travel in this movie in general doesn't make sense to me. It was just a lot of words flung around. I swear I'm not actually stupid.
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Post by liebkartoffel on May 2, 2019 11:07:13 GMT -5
A lot of the movie felt built, I guess understandably enough, to wring as many tears out of Tony Stark dying as possible. Maybe Marvel will really surprise me and spend a movie or series really driving into the trauma caused by that 5 year rapture/Resurrection gap, but I doubt it. Like you said, only agreeing to do the plan in a way that keeps his family intact seems crazy selfish. Scott missed 5 years of his daughter's life! That doesn't matter at all? And I suspect that they didn't want the focus taken of him and Steve because Widow, in the real world, is sticking around for at least one more movie. But in the context of the movie it is fucking bizarre that it gets glossed over. I think it makes perfect sense that Cap created a 2nd timeline in which the world thinks Cap re-surfaced after 20-30 years instead of 60-70 and immediately set about rooting out HYDRA influence in S.H.I.E.L.D. with Peggy. It explains why he even has a shield to give Sam (it never would have been destroyed in the alternate timeline). I would imagine alternate earth Hank Pym and Howard Stark would have been able to confirm his time-travel/alternate timeline theory and would have set about proactively preventing most of the main MCU timeline. Then when he sense the end is coming near, he knows he has to go back to the 'real' timeline and close the loop so that everyone isn't wondering about what happened to him or if the stones were successfully returned. I think the only real lingering question is the fate of the still-frozen Steve Rogers in the alternate timeline, but there are multiple ways that could go that would make enough sense. Sorry, it still just doesn't really make sense to me. It's just too hard for me to try and wrap my head around any of this. Probably because the whole theory of time travel in this movie in general doesn't make sense to me. It was just a lot of words flung around. I swear I'm not actually stupid. It helped me to think of it as a parallel universe story rather than a time travel story. Cap doesn't travel to his own past; he travels to a parallel universe that also happens to be 60 years in the past, from his perspective. So whatever he did or didn't do (we don't see anything besides him and Peggy dancing) wouldn't have any effect on our own universe.
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 2, 2019 15:33:54 GMT -5
Sorry, it still just doesn't really make sense to me. It's just too hard for me to try and wrap my head around any of this. Probably because the whole theory of time travel in this movie in general doesn't make sense to me. It was just a lot of words flung around. I swear I'm not actually stupid. It helped me to think of it as a parallel universe story rather than a time travel story. Cap doesn't travel to his own past; he travels to a parallel universe that also happens to be 60 years in the past, from his perspective. So whatever he did or didn't do (we don't see anything besides him and Peggy dancing) wouldn't have any effect on our own universe. Yea, I thought Hulk's conversation with the Ancient One (a phrase we all assumed we'd be typing on a movie forum back in 2007) established that pretty well. It's impossible for Steve to affect the main MCU present, because as soon as he changes anything a new timeline is created and either it continues diverging from the main one or (as was the original plan) the change is undone and that timeline disappears back into the original one. So Cap's alternate timeline will continue to exist forever because he almost certainly didn't undo any of the shit he did while living his best retired superhero life, but it couldn't change the main timeline. This almost certainly not how time actually works, but it makes enough 'movie-logic', to me at least.
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 2, 2019 15:36:05 GMT -5
Sidenote: maybe that all means that Tony wasn't actually being a selfish prick because a timeline would always exist in which Thanos won the first time, even if they went back in time to fix it? Although, I suppose "psuedo-scientific Ant-Man quantum realm time travel" and "magical rock mumbo-jumbo time travel" could operate under a different set of rules.
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Post by liebkartoffel on May 2, 2019 15:54:57 GMT -5
It helped me to think of it as a parallel universe story rather than a time travel story. Cap doesn't travel to his own past; he travels to a parallel universe that also happens to be 60 years in the past, from his perspective. So whatever he did or didn't do (we don't see anything besides him and Peggy dancing) wouldn't have any effect on our own universe. Yea, I thought Hulk's conversation with the Ancient One (a phrase we all assumed we'd be typing on a movie forum back in 2007) established that pretty well. It's impossible for Steve to affect the main MCU present, because as soon as he changes anything a new timeline is created and either it continues diverging from the main one or (as was the original plan) the change is undone and that timeline disappears back into the original one. So Cap's alternate timeline will continue to exist forever because he almost certainly didn't undo any of the shit he did while living his best retired superhero life, but it couldn't change the main timeline. This almost certainly not how time actually works, but it makes enough 'movie-logic', to me at least. I think it's all an elaborate way of saying "look, we know it's a time travel story, but if the we set up the rules so that they could just go back in time and kill baby Thanos that would rob every past and future event of its dramatic stakes, so here's how it's going to be: you can't go back to your own past to change your own present and future. You just can't. Moving on." I've read other internet commenters say this paradox-avoidance-through-alternate-timelines approach is actually in keeping with the multiverse perspective in theoretical physics, but as I'm not a theoretical physicist I really couldn't say.
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Post by Superb Owl ๐ฆ on May 2, 2019 15:58:15 GMT -5
Yea, I thought Hulk's conversation with the Ancient One (a phrase we all assumed we'd be typing on a movie forum back in 2007) established that pretty well. It's impossible for Steve to affect the main MCU present, because as soon as he changes anything a new timeline is created and either it continues diverging from the main one or (as was the original plan) the change is undone and that timeline disappears back into the original one. So Cap's alternate timeline will continue to exist forever because he almost certainly didn't undo any of the shit he did while living his best retired superhero life, but it couldn't change the main timeline. This almost certainly not how time actually works, but it makes enough 'movie-logic', to me at least. I think it's all an elaborate way of saying "look, we know it's a time travel story, but if the we set up the rules so that they could just go back in time and kill baby Thanos that would rob every past and future event of its dramatic stakes, so here's how it's going to be: you can't go back to your own past to change your own present and future. You just can't. Moving on." I've read other internet commenters say this paradox-avoidance-through-alternate-timelines approach is actually in keeping with the multiverse perspective in theoretical physics, but as I'm not a theoretical physicist I really couldn't say. If ever there was a time for a NDT being-a-dick-about-movies-people-like Twitter thread...
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oppy all along
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Post by oppy all along on May 2, 2019 17:08:28 GMT -5
From a Q&A the Russos did. I was right! All hail the me. Link to the whole thing? I pulled the quote from here.
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oppy all along
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Post by oppy all along on May 2, 2019 17:14:47 GMT -5
Also, with regards to Tony Stark and his daughter... it's his daughter. Like, I think that most people with small children are going to be that 'selfish' and believe that being fair and equitable to all people is less important in making sure their infant child stays in existence. That's a weird thing to be angry at Tony Stark for.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 17:42:19 GMT -5
Also, with regards to Tony Stark and his daughter... it's his daughter. Like, I think that most people with small children are going to be that 'selfish' and believe that being fair and equitable to all people is less important in making sure their infant child stays in existence. That's a weird thing to be angry at Tony Stark for. This. Absolutely this. For YEARS I would think about those "if you could go back to being a kid/teenager/young adult and relive your life" and "if you could go back in time what would you do" theoretical questions and have fun coming up with ideas. I fucking can't do it any more, because any change that might result in Baby B not being here is impossible to consider. Tony's "...SHIT!" when he realized he HAD figured out time travel is exactly what my response would have been in his place, along with the following discussion with Pepper and "let's just go disappear someplace and live our lives".
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Post by The Sensational She-Hulk on May 2, 2019 20:25:47 GMT -5
Also, with regards to Tony Stark and his daughter... it's his daughter. Like, I think that most people with small children are going to be that 'selfish' and believe that being fair and equitable to all people is less important in making sure their infant child stays in existence. That's a weird thing to be angry at Tony Stark for. This. Absolutely this. For YEARS I would think about those "if you could go back to being a kid/teenager/young adult and relive your life" and "if you could go back in time what would you do" theoretical questions and have fun coming up with ideas. I fucking can't do it any more, because any change that might result in Baby B not being here is impossible to consider. Tony's "...SHIT!" when he realized he HAD figured out time travel is exactly what my response would have been in his place, along with the following discussion with Pepper and "let's just go disappear someplace and live our lives". Well, then, I guess I'm weird, so thanks for that. Also, we are not talking about an actual, real kid here, and she's merely a plot device at that. It is still selfish and self-centered to only care when it's your family's lives at stake, especially when unlike so many other people in the universe, you actually have a family. Say what you want about "well it's different when it's YOUR kid," but it's still an objectively and inherently selfish way to act in the face of so much widespread destruction. (See also: Clint Barton murdering scores of people in the name of his children instead of helping anyone.) What did Tony lose in Infinity War? Nothing, really. He's even got his best friend alive and well and has not been forced to deal with grief and trauma the way the rest of the Avengers have; instead, he gets to live in a nice house by a lake with his wife and child and cut himself off from the rest of the world because he's rich enough to do so, while everyone else suffers.
The reason I was so annoyed with the whole thing was because in every single movie, Tony is almost always motivated purely by guilt and never actually seems to learn from any of his actions. He gets to keep making the same mistakes over and over again while the movies clearly want us to think that he "had a good point" in Age of Ultron and Civil War, even though he willingly threw his friends into a maximum-security prison in the middle of the ocean without them getting any sort of a trial at all - for instance. I could keep going, but I'm tired and I won't. I haven't liked Tony Stark since the first Avengers movie, and I don't like most of his choices in this one either.
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Post by Nudeviking on May 2, 2019 20:38:43 GMT -5
Also, with regards to Tony Stark and his daughter... it's his daughter. Like, I think that most people with small children are going to be that 'selfish' and believe that being fair and equitable to all people is less important in making sure their infant child stays in existence. That's a weird thing to be angry at Tony Stark for. The entire overarching storyline to the MCU has been the fact that Tony Stark is a self-centered prick. Most of the stuff he's done, both good and bad, as been out of a desire to be famous/powerful/rich/right/etc. Over the course of the franchise he's also been shown to have a soft spot for children. There was the kid in a hoodie and Iron Man mask he saved in Iron Man 2 and then praised to let the kid think he blew up a bunch of evil robots, the kid from Iron Man 3 who apparently was so moved by Tony Stark's death some 10+ years later after they hung out together for a week that he traveled to Upstate New York from Not Upstate New York to attend his funeral, and finally Spider-Man. Tony clearly blames himself for getting Peter Parker killed in Infinity War which leads to him blowing up at the other Avengers and retreating to woods to live like a hermit. So when Tony Stark has a child of his own of course he's going to be selfish about it and not want to help his former coworkers do something that might take that child away from him. That's who Tony Stark has been more or less since the first movie: a selfish dude who for some reason cares about small children. I also think there's an interesting dichotomy between the relationship with Tony and his daughter and Thanos and Gamora. Thanos, who is presented as caring about Gamora (in-unverse he couldn't have gotten the Soul Stone if he hadn't cared about her) was more than willing to sacrifice her in order to do something that in his mind would save the universe. Tony was at first unwilling to help his friends even attempt to save the universe because it might cost him his daughter before agreeing to help them, but only if they do things in such a way as to not cause his daughter to cease to exist. This all makes Tony's ultimate sacrifice at the end mean a lot more than it otherwise would have. Both Tony and Black Widow sacrificed themselves in an effort to save the universe, but Black Widow's was presented in a way that didn't really feel like anything was being lost ("I don't if that's what my dad's name is I never met him," "I've got nothing to live for except this job"). It felt like the rational choice between two options, but Tony had a wife and a kid and undoubtedly a shit ton of money still and a cabin in the woods and a nice car and friends. There were thousands of people, rock monsters, space aliens, Howard the Ducks on the battlefield who could have snapped Thanos '14 out of existence but it was Tony who did it. He was one of the few people in the movie who seemed to thrive in the new Post-Snap world and yet he gave it all up so that his friends could have happy endings.
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Post by oppy all along on May 2, 2019 20:59:22 GMT -5
This all makes Tony's ultimate sacrifice at the end mean a lot more than it otherwise would have. Both Tony and Black Widow sacrificed themselves in an effort to save the universe, but Black Widow's was presented in a way that didn't really feel like anything was being lost ("I don't if that's what my dad's name is I never met him," "I've got nothing to live for except this job"). It felt like the rational choice between two options, but Tony had a wife and a kid and undoubtedly a shit ton of money still and a cabin in the woods and a nice car and friends. There were thousands of people, rock monsters, space aliens, Howard the Ducks on the battlefield who could have snapped Thanos '14 out of existence but it was Tony who did it. He was one of the few people in the movie who seemed to thrive in the new Post-Snap world and yet he gave it all up so that his friends could have happy endings. That is very good writing stuff, but I disagree a bit with how you presented Black Widow's sacrifice. I get the point that you're making but she's a wonderful human being and one of the saddest arcs of the MCU is that she always saw herself as disposable. Black Widow wasn't the rational choice to die, they just both loved each other and were immediately completely willing to kill themselves to save the other and also the world. Widow is just a better fighter is all. In summary, good write up on Iron Man, but Black Widow is a beautiful angel.
Also, good thing they sent Widow and Hawkeye to Vormir and not, say, War Machine and Rocket. "so... should I kill myself then?" "I dunno man, we're acquaintances but I don't know if I'd say 'love'"
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Post by Nudeviking on May 2, 2019 21:15:07 GMT -5
This all makes Tony's ultimate sacrifice at the end mean a lot more than it otherwise would have. Both Tony and Black Widow sacrificed themselves in an effort to save the universe, but Black Widow's was presented in a way that didn't really feel like anything was being lost ("I don't if that's what my dad's name is I never met him," "I've got nothing to live for except this job"). It felt like the rational choice between two options, but Tony had a wife and a kid and undoubtedly a shit ton of money still and a cabin in the woods and a nice car and friends. There were thousands of people, rock monsters, space aliens, Howard the Ducks on the battlefield who could have snapped Thanos '14 out of existence but it was Tony who did it. He was one of the few people in the movie who seemed to thrive in the new Post-Snap world and yet he gave it all up so that his friends could have happy endings. That is very good writing stuff, but I disagree a bit with how you presented Black Widow's sacrifice. I get the point that you're making but she's a wonderful human being and one of the saddest arcs of the MCU is that she always saw herself as disposable. Black Widow wasn't the rational choice to die, they just both loved each other and were immediately completely willing to kill themselves to save the other and also the world. Widow is just a better fighter is all. In summary, good write up on Iron Man, but Black Widow is a beautiful angel.
Also, good thing they sent Widow and Hawkeye to Vormir and not, say, War Machine and Rocket. "so... should I kill myself then?" "I dunno man, we're acquaintances but I don't know if I'd say 'love'"
I don't disagree with you. I'm just talking about how it was depicted on-screen. It was Black Widow herself who introduced those ideas that she had nothing in her life except her job and since apparently the MCU is a lot like the Fast and the Furious where family is everything, her "I've got nothing but this job and my weird sexual tension with my married coworker who now has a shitty haircut and terrible Randy Orton sleeve tattoos" sacrifice in the movie ultimate is depicted as more right than "I killed a lot of criminals because my wife and kids vanished and thus I should throw myself off a mountain in an effort to bring them back," sacrifice Hawkguy was willing to make. In an alternate universe version of the movie where Hawkguy successfully throws himself off a mountain who would Natasha embrace while triumphant music played during her part of the 40 minute Return of the King style outro? What would her happy ending look like?
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Post by oppy all along on May 2, 2019 21:19:43 GMT -5
In an alternate universe version of the movie where Hawkguy successfully throws himself off a mountain who would Natasha embrace while triumphant music played during her part of the 40 minute Return of the King style outro? What would her happy ending look like? She would read 'Eat Pray Love' and learn to embrace herself. Or it probably would have been like she smiles wistfully at all the returned people and then quietly slips off into the night. Except she's done that. Or she smiles and looks over the next generation of heroes. Except she's done that. Narratively I can see why they chose Widow to go out.
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Post by oppy all along on May 3, 2019 6:10:56 GMT -5
It Was The Only Way
Travelling back to Infinity War for a bit, Dr. Strange using the time stone to simulate 14,600,005 futures and finding the one golden path. It's just insanely convoluted how that one path came to happen. Looking at the fight on Titan, Dr. Strange needed a couple of major victory conditions.
1) Iron Man, Spider-Man, him, and to a lesser extent the other heroes on Titan to survive the battle. Doctor Strange needs to survive to give Wong the information he needs to send the wizards out to find all the warriors, Spider-Man needs to participate in the gauntlet-gauntlet to keep the gauntlet away from Thanos until just the right moment, and Iron Man needs to figure out quantum tunnelling and to interface with the gauntlet to steal the stones. They probably need Nebula to survive as well, as she's the only hero alive who knows the Soul Stone is on Vormir. Even if her presence is what alerts 2014 Thanos and seemingly makes things so much harder.
2) Ant-Man needs to be stuck in the Quantum Realm. This is a matter of timing, because if the fight on Titan is over too soon or too late Ant-Man never gets trapped and they never have the idea for quantum tunnelling. And this is a ten second window at best, and they have to account for how long it'll take Thanos to run through the Wakanda peeps. So just imagine everything the squad on Titan does as a very precise survival/delaying tactic.
On top of that, we can assume that for one reason or another the things the Avengers should have been able to do to win wouldn't work, or Doctor Strange has no way to make them happen. So for instance removing the gauntlet from Thanos on Titan wouldn't work, because... Thanos would get the gauntlet back almost instantly? Thanos would get the gauntlet back later? "I am inevitable" after all. And Ant-Man wouldn't be stuck in the Quantum Realm and/or one of the necessary parties would die. And Captain Marvel donning the gauntlet to snap Thanos and crew out of existence wouldn't work because Doctor Strange doesn't know her and has no way to compel her to do it? Or she dies before she can click? Maybe something with Iron Man's suit lets him manage just long enough.
Sadly it seems he didn't have a spell to message Thor "Dude, go for the head."
There are also events that are in no way in Doctor Strange's control. The rat, for example. Did he enchant the rat? Does he know the rat is going to do that or does he know it's a possibility the rat does that? Is he passing into dust thinking "I hope to fucking God the rat actually does the thing"?
The Avengers and Trauma
We see among the Avengers squad them all having different responses to this massively traumatising and grief-inducing event. Some people survive and thrive. Professor Hulk especially uses the devastating grief as an impetus to really work on himself and complete his five stages of Hulk. As twisted as it is, his life may actually be better for failing and losing so much. The government isn't chasing him anymore, he's cleaned up his act, he's a celebrity. These people exist at support group (happy and secure, not large and green). They are immensely frustrating and then they stop going to support group and everyone is secretly kinda happy about it. Funnily enough their advice of 'you just need to turn your life around' never seems to be directly applicable.
Tony Stark is doing pretty well as well, he got lucky with Pepper making it. Still, we see avoidant behaviour. He's hidden the photo of Spider-Man, and in the end the grief at losing Tom Holland's adorable face is enough to spur him to risk losing everything to try and get everyone back. We see tragically before the time travel thing that he is worried enough to record a message for his daughter in case he dies and isn't around to see her grow up. It is very sad. And it speaks to how motivated he is by Spider-Man's dusting in his arms. This person insists he doesn't need support group look how great his life is but will cry like a little boy if he ever attends.
Then we have the survivors who haven't quite managed to thrive just yet. Captain America looks the part, sure. He keeps himself military presentable, he leads support groups where he says inspiring things to people who are struggling with grief. And he's trying to see the bright side. But we see the facade crumble around Black Widow. He has the work to keep him busy, but that's a man who cries himself to sleep at night. The presentable one at support group.
Black Widow isn't managing quite as well as Captain America. She clings as tightly as she can to the past, fearing that if she tries to move on she could cast herself adrift and lose everything she ever liked about herself after forming her weird messed up Avenger family. Convinced that she's a bad person and that the traumatising event represents a deep personal failure on her part. Spends every day thinking about what she'd have done differently if she just wasn't such a pathetic trash bag of a hero (you're a beautiful angel Black Widow I love you). I bet during the time skip she dyed her hair blonde in an attempt to feel joy and it completely didn't work and she just let it grow out because she felt dead inside with or without the hair so who cares. The not-quite-as-presentable one at support group.
And then we have the people who have not survived or thrived at all. Hawkeye lost fucking everything. In a 50/50 snap his entire family died, and in the cruellest twist of all he lived. It is staggering how unfair that is. Not just compared to the criminals he devotes his life to violently murdering, but to someone like Tony Stark who has been blessed by life up to that point and was blessed to not lose the love of his life. With nothing and nobody to live for, he gets an arm-sleeve. The real-world equivalent of this person is a bit less murdery, but they stop showing up to support group one day and you're pretty sure they're going to develop a drug addiction or some other kind of dangerous behaviour. Maybe they recover later down the road, maybe they die, but either way you never see them again.
And Thor. Exhibits very strong depressive and avoidant behaviour. Has completely lost the motivation to take care of himself or do things. Drinks himself into a stupor every night because it's easier than ever being able to think or feel anything. It's funny because Chris Hemsworth is a very funny man, comedy is tragedy, and frankly mental illness is kind of hilarious if you ignore the human cost and suffering. His Avenger friends should probably be a bit more concerned about him though. This is the messy guy who stops coming to support group one day and you hear he killed himself. But wasn't it funny when Tony Stark called him the Big Lebowski?
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Post by Gamblin' Telly on May 3, 2019 6:52:18 GMT -5
Maybe the rat didn't restart the van in the one of the posssible 14,600,005 futures but in all of them, and it was 14,600,004 futures in which the heroes still didn't beat Thanos?
The rat is inevitable!
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