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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 12, 2023 22:44:16 GMT -5
If you look over the hosts of the Muppet Show, they aren't there to appeal to kids in the slightest.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 12, 2023 23:09:47 GMT -5
3 hours to go before the SAG-AFTRA contract expires. It is looking likely that there may be a SAG strike. The leaks coming from the SAG side are saying that the studios are refusing to negotiate on AI. This is the same thing the WGA said about why they ended up on strike. As in, they aren't just disagreeing on terms. It is that the studios aren't even offering up any plan whatsoever about fair use of AI. This is obviously an existential issue for both SAG and WGA. It is hard to understand why the studios would be doing this. What is there to gain? You know SAG/WGA aren't going to agree to let you use AI in any way you want. SAG has agreed to let a Federal mediator in. But they refused to extend the contract deadline. So, if there is no new contract agreement by midnight then SAG will likely strike. This means the actors cannot promote any projects that are already completed. So, no commenting about their recent Emmy nominations, no appearances to promote Summer movies, etc. I hate that we live in a world where studio bosses apparently think it is fine to use actors to train AI to reproduce their image and voice, and that this should be unpaid. That is incredibly fucked up. Ditto that they apparently think it is fine to have scripts written by AI, which will undoubtedly need to be touched up by humans, but this will be unpaid.
Edited to add: And what is nutty about this is that the general public will likely be even MORE sympathetic to Hollywood actors and writers over the usage of AI than they would be about pay. I talked to my mom tonight and she goes, "Are they asking for even more money?" And I told her it was about the studios wanting unrestricted use of AI, and she said, "No, that is wrong. It would put all the actors and writers out of business". Yeah, exactly. My mom can't follow the plot of the Indiana Jones movie, but she can tell that this is fucked up.
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Rainbow Rosa
TI Forumite
not gay, just colorful
Posts: 3,604 
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Post by Rainbow Rosa on Jul 12, 2023 23:57:36 GMT -5
If you look over the hosts of the Muppet Show, they aren't there to appeal to kids in the slightest. The Muppet Show wasn't a kids' show, but it definitely wasn't a grown-ups show, I think is a way of putting it. Joel Grey skirts that line because at the time his most famous role was playing, basically, a Nazi cross-dresser, but on the show itself he was just being a song-and-dance man, and strictly speaking there's nothing family unfriendly about "Willkommen" other than the musical it comes from being, again, about Nazis - but so is "The Lonely Goatherd" !!
By contrast, it would be really, really weird if they had an episode with, like, Cheech and Chong? Because there's no way to have them on the show and not have the episode revolve around drugs, subtextually or otherwise.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 13, 2023 3:55:31 GMT -5
And there we have it. At around 1am, the SAG negotiating committee said talks with AMPTP had collapsed and they had voted to recommend a strike.
The SAG national board is meeting at 9am PDT to take a final strike vote. SAG announced a press conference at noon PDT Thursday. Picketing could begin in the afternoon.
Pitiful. Both the WGA and SAG negotiating committee members have been saying that AMPTP is simply refusing to negotiate on several key issues. They are indicating that AI protections are one of those things.
Federal mediators were called in today, but apparently that didn't help.
If I were on the SAG board now, I'd propose that we tell AMPTP we refuse to continue negotiations until they finalize a contract offer for WGA. Because the industry won't really recover until WGA is back. Might as well use this leverage to make sure the work stoppage is as short as possible.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 13, 2023 3:59:11 GMT -5
If you look over the hosts of the Muppet Show, they aren't there to appeal to kids in the slightest. The Muppet Show wasn't a kids' show, but it definitely wasn't a grown-ups show, I think is a way of putting it. Joel Grey skirts that line because at the time his most famous role was playing, basically, a Nazi cross-dresser, but on the show itself he was just being a song-and-dance man, and strictly speaking there's nothing family unfriendly about "Willkommen" other than the musical it comes from being, again, about Nazis - but so is "The Lonely Goatherd" !! Right. Just because that was Joel Grey's most famous role doesn't really mean anything. He was a stage performer for at least a decade before that.
I honestly love the Muppet Show scene where he performs "Wilkommen". I think it is fascinating to watch him calibrate that performance for a totally different kind of audience.
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Hippo
Prolific Poster 
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Post by Hippo on Jul 13, 2023 9:59:28 GMT -5
And there we have it. At around 1am, the SAG negotiating committee said talks with AMPTP had collapsed and they had voted to recommend a strike. The SAG national board is meeting at 9am PDT to take a final strike vote. SAG announced a press conference at noon PDT Thursday. Picketing could begin in the afternoon. Pitiful. Both the WGA and SAG negotiating committee members have been saying that AMPTP is simply refusing to negotiate on several key issues. They are indicating that AI protections are one of those things. Federal mediators were called in today, but apparently that didn't help. If I were on the SAG board now, I'd propose that we tell AMPTP we refuse to continue negotiations until they finalize a contract offer for WGA. Because the industry won't really recover until WGA is back. Might as well use this leverage to make sure the work stoppage is as short as possible. And then you hear how AMPTP had the plan to simply wait for the writers to become destitute and desperate enough to accept their terms given they had no intention on budging. |
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 13, 2023 11:55:06 GMT -5
If you look over the hosts of the Muppet Show, they aren't there to appeal to kids in the slightest. There was appeal though. I was 10 at the time of premiere, and while obviously I had no idea who many of the hosts were (I still have no idea who that French guy in season one was), there were a lot I knew and liked due to osmosis of being in the room/actually watching whatever shows my parents/grandparents had on. Because if I wanted to watch TV, I watched what the adults watched. There was only one TV in the house, and it was the same for most of my friends. |
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 13, 2023 12:25:08 GMT -5
And there we have it. At around 1am, the SAG negotiating committee said talks with AMPTP had collapsed and they had voted to recommend a strike. The SAG national board is meeting at 9am PDT to take a final strike vote. SAG announced a press conference at noon PDT Thursday. Picketing could begin in the afternoon. Pitiful. Both the WGA and SAG negotiating committee members have been saying that AMPTP is simply refusing to negotiate on several key issues. They are indicating that AI protections are one of those things. Federal mediators were called in today, but apparently that didn't help. If I were on the SAG board now, I'd propose that we tell AMPTP we refuse to continue negotiations until they finalize a contract offer for WGA. Because the industry won't really recover until WGA is back. Might as well use this leverage to make sure the work stoppage is as short as possible. I know there are a lot of people who are/are going to have a really rough time as long as the strikes are ongoing, but I really want this to go on long enough to just kick the everliving shit out of Hollywood executives(figuratively or not). Much like far too many executives, their salaries and perks are obscene, but unlike when most executives refuse to give raises/improve conditions, Hollywood refusing to do so is extremely visible and will impact Americans’ access to escapism. America as an entity doesn’t really seem to generally care that pay structures are so goddamn disparate- or they care but just give a “what are you gonna do” shrug - but by god you take away something that is making it easier to ignore the absolute shitshow that is the economy right now, they’ll pay more attention, and maybe idk get loud enough to send a message to all corporate America. Full disclosure I am a terrible capitalist overall, and do not understand the absolute inability of huge corporations to actually fucking pay their employees fairly. And I do think A list actors’ salaries are actually offensively high. Lookin directly at you, Tom Cruise & RDJ. |
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 13, 2023 18:06:19 GMT -5
Fran Drescher’s press conference speech (I had no idea she was the president of SAG-AFTRA)
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jul 13, 2023 19:31:22 GMT -5
Edited to add: And what is nutty about this is that the general public will likely be even MORE sympathetic to Hollywood actors and writers over the usage of AI than they would be about pay.
People really only see the star system of actors (and to a lesser degree writers), and the self-reflective media-about-making-media (basically always from successful people, even if they’re only at the cusp of success in the story) doesn’t really help, either. No one really thinks about who backs them up, or the people who drift in-and-out of writers’ rooms (to the extent they still existed before the strike), etc.
The studios’ position seems quite insulting to the audience’s interest but, even though we like to say audiences actually want original, intelligent, just generally good entertainment (and there’s a lot of evidence for this in terms of what tv shows get widely rewatched) has anyone ever actually gone broke on underestimating the American audience? Would the network TV model of having something on in the background you’re not really paying attention to work well enough with some kind of barebones ChatGPT sitcom touched up by scabs? Parades of ad-supported dumbshit, couch potato-aimed reality TV (Zaslav’s specialty) definitely make money, but can a conglomerate live on that alone?
The stuff we viewers see as successes aren’t from a studio point of view. The sort of people on this forum, and the people who write the stuff we read, are only a portion of the audience, and a portion the studios can evidently do without. The post-rural purge/MTM-dominated CBS, must-see 90s NBC, and AMC’s prestige shows were aimed at getting upscale ads to younger and more affluent (or on the track to affluent) audiences. I think AMC’s still trying but CBS and NBC more-or-less reverted to sludge after their period of smarter TV comedy (and drama with peak-L&O/ER).
Maybe the 50s is a better comparison, where a lot of TV was truly highbrow before networks figured out how to make money on stuff “easier” for mass audiences than filmed socially-conscious plays by Paddy Chayefsky and Rod Serling. Not that the 60s didn’t have good TV that could squeeze those themes (and new ones) into episodic molds, but the 50s was considered the Golden Age of TV until the late 00s.
I don’t know where I’m going with this, but there have been a number of times when Hollywood abandoned quality only to return to it, but those returns were only temporary. While MTM and AMC and such had the justification of drawing better audiences, I wonder how much that was post-justification from people who just wanted to make something they were proud of and found reasons why it would work after. That’s something I’ve read about a lot of ambitious streaming shows—they were from people who wanted to make things. The other model of TV,
still seems to make money hand-over-fist, though.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 13, 2023 19:37:48 GMT -5
AMPTP says they offered an "historic" proposal to SAG. The SAG Chief negotiator, Duncan Crabtree-Ireland, told us what that was: "This ‘groundbreaking’ AI proposal that they gave us yesterday [was] that our background performers should be able to be scanned and get paid for one day’s pay and their companies should own that scan, their image, their likeness to be able to use it for the rest of eternity in any project they want with no consent and no compensation, if you think that’s a groundbreaking proposal I suggest you think again."
That's a fucking joke, is what that is. I am AMAZED the SAG negotiating committee didn't get up and walk out immediately when that was proposed. Come on. Those are not even serious people, who are seriously trying to get a deal done.
Edited to add:
After the press conference, other members of the negotiating committee offered up more details:
Ron Ostrow: "There were definitely moments when we thought there might be some progress. On the last day, we had a very serious discussion where it looked like there might be a glimmer. It turned out to evaporate. We were across the table at 11:59am. Even as we sat across the table, Duncan said if you want to make a deal, make it right now, we’re ready. Their response was we’re uncivilized."
Michelle Hurd: "In the beginning of the conversation we put across the revenue sharing, they didn’t come back to us at all, 35 days, that’s disrespectful.”
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 13, 2023 19:45:07 GMT -5
If I were on the SAG board now, I'd propose that we tell AMPTP we refuse to continue negotiations until they finalize a contract offer for WGA. Because the industry won't really recover until WGA is back. Might as well use this leverage to make sure the work stoppage is as short as possible. And then you hear how AMPTP had the plan to simply wait for the writers to become destitute and desperate enough to accept their terms given they had no intention on budging.
Yes, this is why I am saying this. SAG should now include in their demands that AMPTP work out a deal with WGA *first*. They have the power to stop this cruel behavior.
Fran Drescher even referenced this in that press conference today. Those studio quotes released on Tuesday were: "The endgame is to allow things to drag on until [WGA] union members start losing their apartments and losing their houses", saying it is "a cruel but necessary evil".
Drescher today: "A necessary evil? Can you believe that? We had a whiteboard with quotes just so the room would remember some of the things that were said. You know what? Eventually the people break down the gates of Versailles, and then it’s over and we’re at that moment right now."
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Post by Prole Hole on Jul 14, 2023 4:24:15 GMT -5
AMPTP says they offered an "historic" proposal to SAG. The SAG Chief negotiator, Duncan Crabtree-Ireland, told us what that was: "This ‘groundbreaking’ AI proposal that they gave us yesterday [was] that our background performers should be able to be scanned and get paid for one day’s pay and their companies should own that scan, their image, their likeness to be able to use it for the rest of eternity in any project they want with no consent and no compensation, if you think that’s a groundbreaking proposal I suggest you think again."
That's a fucking joke, is what that is. I am AMAZED the SAG negotiating committee didn't get up and walk out immediately when that was proposed. Come on. Those are not even serious people, who are seriously trying to get a deal done.
Edited to add:
After the press conference, other members of the negotiating committee offered up more details:
Ron Ostrow: "There were definitely moments when we thought there might be some progress. On the last day, we had a very serious discussion where it looked like there might be a glimmer. It turned out to evaporate. We were across the table at 11:59am. Even as we sat across the table, Duncan said if you want to make a deal, make it right now, we’re ready. Their response was we’re uncivilized."
Michelle Hurd: "In the beginning of the conversation we put across the revenue sharing, they didn’t come back to us at all, 35 days, that’s disrespectful.”
Isn't that proposal pretty much literally the first episode of the most recent season of Black Mirror? |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 14, 2023 17:45:56 GMT -5
Isn't that proposal pretty much literally the first episode of the most recent season of Black Mirror?
Yes, straight out of Black Mirror. Apparently the studios saw that and said "Great idea!"
So, yeah, that's how far apart SAG/WGA are from AMPTP as of now.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 14, 2023 18:41:16 GMT -5
I finished Season 2 of "The Bear" last night. Ah, I really loved it! Loved the episode "Forks"! I loved seeing Richie discover his own talents and feel a sense of self-worth. Great stuff.
I feel season 2 was a bit too overloaded on the background music.
I also didn't too much care for the girlfriend story for Carmy. I get it, structurally, but it was way more boring than the rest of the show. Which I guess is why they wanted it, structurally. But still.
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ABz B👹anaz
Grandfathered In 
This country is (now less of) a shitshow.
Posts: 1,978
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Jul 15, 2023 2:26:30 GMT -5
I finished Season 2 of "The Bear" last night. Ah, I really loved it! Loved the episode "Forks"! I loved seeing Richie discover his own talents and feel a sense of self-worth. Great stuff. I feel season 2 was a bit too overloaded on the background music. I also didn't too much care for the girlfriend story for Carmy. I get it, structurally, but it was way more boring than the rest of the show. Which I guess is why they wanted it, structurally. But still. "Forks" is the highest rated episode of the second season on IMDb, and I 100% agree. I was SO happy to see Richie succeed at something, and take what he learned back with him. Everyone's "side quests" to improve their skills were great. Poor Ebraheim! |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jul 15, 2023 7:47:50 GMT -5
I finished Season 2 of "The Bear" last night. Ah, I really loved it! Loved the episode "Forks"! I loved seeing Richie discover his own talents and feel a sense of self-worth. Great stuff. I feel season 2 was a bit too overloaded on the background music. I also didn't too much care for the girlfriend story for Carmy. I get it, structurally, but it was way more boring than the rest of the show. Which I guess is why they wanted it, structurally. But still. "Forks" is the highest rated episode of the second season on IMDb, and I 100% agree. I was SO happy to see Richie succeed at something, and take what he learned back with him. Everyone's "side quests" to improve their skills were great. Poor Ebraheim! Structurally, I loved how this season was more or less a shonen anime, with everyone splitting up to study with different master(-chef)s in preparation for the big upcoming martial arts tournament restaurant opening. I thought Richie's immediate turnaround was maybe a trifle unrealistic for staging after all of a week, but it was so great seeing him finally find a role and thrive. |
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Post by Floyd Diabolical Barber on Jul 18, 2023 0:10:43 GMT -5
I binge watched the Hulu series version of Catch-22. I started it once before and quit after the first episode because I just didn't like the way they handled the story. I finished the series this time, and I see why they took the approach they did. They wanted to show Yossarian going nuts. In the book and the 70's movie, he's already nuts when it starts, but the story is told in a scrambled timeline.
The Alan Arkin movie from the 70's is greatly superior, but is condensed in a way a series wouldn't have to be. They really blew an opportunity with this longer format.
The creators of this series also missed an essential element of the story. Catch-22 isn't storytelling, it's gonzo journalism. I would be very surprised if Hunter Thompson wasn't hugely influenced by it. Catch-22 could legitimately be titled "Fear and Loathing in the Mediterranean Theater". As soon as I came to this realization, I understood that the best director for a movie or series of Catch-22 would be Terry Gilliam. I really wish somebody would talk him into doing that.
If you haven't read Catch-22, I think you should. And keep in mind "Fear and Loathing in the Mediterranean Theater".
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 19, 2023 12:35:38 GMT -5
RAYLAAAAAN is back on his bullshit* *glee*
Off to a good start, I think, although I could do without the giant yellow LOCATION establishing text, and although I wasn’t expecting it, the lack of twangy music will take some getting used to. Holbrook is pretty much exactly what I expected; Willa is thus far tolerable for a teenager, and she is not a godawful actress either, which is what I feared(her voice threw me a bit tho). I am optimistic!
Somehow Raylan getting a cot for his daughter in a hotel room instead of just getting a room with two beds is perfectly on-brand.
And for some reason, the gas station scene, of all things, gave me some serious cognitive dissonance; idk I think it was just too familiar.
*like he will ever be off his bullshit
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 21, 2023 16:57:32 GMT -5
WHAT more Justified?? I'll take it!
It's just occurred to me how odd it was that we didn't see more people smoking cigarettes in Justified Prime. There was Ava on and off, and I think Helen? Kentucky is 100% tobacco country, and since Justified spent a lot of time in a low-income area of the state, there should have been a lot more people lighting up left and right. Every dang shitkicker bar should have been impossible to see in.* Has smoking just become so phased out of TV that it's far more obvious now? OR is the lighting scheme darker in Detroit, and they're using the smoke to lean into that?
YES. RAYLAN GIVENS GETS TO SAY FUCK. He's always wanted to, and now FX allows him to be himself. And "being himself" also means that dumb son of a bitch is still has a type. Lord, son, branch out a bit.
And look not to be too prurient, but jfc Holbrook, you got oranges in there?
*also there should have been a LOT more busted-ass cars and pickup trucks in Harlan. Every other car should have been held together by barbed wire and bungee cords.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 21, 2023 17:22:22 GMT -5
Enjoying City Primeval, though I'm wondering how the production managed to clone Julie Benz. Was there some project Joss Whedon set in motion while Buffy was on the air to secure a chain of eternally young Darlas?
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Post by MrsLangdonAlger on Jul 22, 2023 8:36:32 GMT -5
Enjoying City Primeval, though I'm wondering how the production managed to clone Julie Benz. Was there some project Joss Whedon set in motion while Buffy was on the air to secure a chain of eternally young Darlas? That's Adelaide Clemens, who is absolutely incredible in one of my favorite shows of all time: Rectify. |
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Post by songstarliner on Jul 22, 2023 18:25:32 GMT -5
Welp. Guess I'm re-watching Spartacus from the beginning.
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Post by Floyd Diabolical Barber on Jul 23, 2023 19:24:10 GMT -5
The Andy Griffith show makes a little more sense and becomes a little less funny when you realize that Barney Fife is a combat veteran with PTSD.
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 24, 2023 15:02:00 GMT -5
Man, What We Do In The Shadows is just...going there, isn't it?
And Guillermo was SO CUTE ON THE FLOAT *heart-eyes*
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Jul 26, 2023 8:25:50 GMT -5
We've been rewatching Angel, which I am realizing I actually didn't see much of the first time - I remember some of the S5 stuff with Fred/Ilyria, and the puppet episode, and that might be about it.
Anyway, we're on S4 now, which is when things really start to get a little nuts. Watching it now, you can read between the lines and see how poorly Charisma Carpenter is being treated, and I hate it. It also doesn't make a ton of sense for Cordy if we're being honest! It's both a good show and yet ... a hot mess?
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 26, 2023 9:21:16 GMT -5
We've been rewatching Angel, which I am realizing I actually didn't see much of the first time - I remember some of the S5 stuff with Fred/Ilyria, and the puppet episode, and that might be about it. Anyway, we're on S4 now, which is when things really start to get a little nuts. Watching it now, you can read between the lines and see how poorly Charisma Carpenter is being treated, and I hate it. It also doesn't make a ton of sense for Cordy if we're being honest! It's both a good show and yet ... a hot mess? I think Season 4 suffers from two big problems: 1. Joss Whedon had clearly decided to take out some weird personal vendetta against Charisma Carpenter 2. He was overseeing three shows simultaneously (Angel, Buffy, Firefly) and that was beyond his capability. I think he could barely manage two - Angel and Buffy were both better when the other one wasn't on the air. As a result, the season is kind of a mess, with some good ideas executed badly and a lot of wheel-spinning. It's not all bad, but it's significantly weaker than seasons 3 or 5. |
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Jul 26, 2023 9:51:28 GMT -5
We've been rewatching Angel, which I am realizing I actually didn't see much of the first time - I remember some of the S5 stuff with Fred/Ilyria, and the puppet episode, and that might be about it. Anyway, we're on S4 now, which is when things really start to get a little nuts. Watching it now, you can read between the lines and see how poorly Charisma Carpenter is being treated, and I hate it. It also doesn't make a ton of sense for Cordy if we're being honest! It's both a good show and yet ... a hot mess? I think Season 4 suffers from two big problems: 1. Joss Whedon had clearly decided to take out some weird personal vendetta against Charisma Carpenter 2. He was overseeing three shows simultaneously (Angel, Buffy, Firefly) and that was beyond his capability. I think he could barely manage two - Angel and Buffy were both better when the other one wasn't on the air. As a result, the season is kind of a mess, with some good ideas executed badly and a lot of wheel-spinning. It's not all bad, but it's significantly weaker than seasons 3 or 5. Well, as far as we know now, the personal vendetta with CC was that she got pregnant - but yeah, I agree overall, I hadn't clocked that Firefly was also on the air then and he clearly didn't have the capability to run all three or the trust to turn one/two over to other people. And look, I don't mind a hang-out monster of the week show, those can be great; but it's not really that either. I dunno, it feels messy. Connor's characterization is all over the place. Cordy doesn't get enough to do. Wesley's motivations are totally unclear. Instead of either showing OR telling us why people are doing things, it's kinda like "hey, you figure it out" |
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Post by songstarliner on Jul 26, 2023 11:25:15 GMT -5
Welp. Guess I'm re-watching Spartacus from the beginning. So much blood. So much sand. |
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Post by DangOlJimmyITellYouWhat on Jul 26, 2023 14:52:32 GMT -5
We've been rewatching Angel, which I am realizing I actually didn't see much of the first time - I remember some of the S5 stuff with Fred/Ilyria, and the puppet episode, and that might be about it. Anyway, we're on S4 now, which is when things really start to get a little nuts. Watching it now, you can read between the lines and see how poorly Charisma Carpenter is being treated, and I hate it. It also doesn't make a ton of sense for Cordy if we're being honest! It's both a good show and yet ... a hot mess? I think Season 4 suffers from two big problems: 1. Joss Whedon had clearly decided to take out some weird personal vendetta against Charisma Carpenter 2. He was overseeing three shows simultaneously (Angel, Buffy, Firefly) and that was beyond his capability. I think he could barely manage two - Angel and Buffy were both better when the other one wasn't on the air. As a result, the season is kind of a mess, with some good ideas executed badly and a lot of wheel-spinning. It's not all bad, but it's significantly weaker than seasons 3 or 5. My extremely unpopular opinion, especially since all the issues Charisma had have come to light, is that I actually quite like season four. It just went so utterly bananapants and weird on so many levels. Plus as we are all aware (I hope), I have always liked Connor, and his whole arc was fucked up and tragic, then there was Wesley's continued descent into nihilism,and it was just eh all kind of my jam*. I'm not saying it wasn't weaker than other seasons, nor that there wasn't some seriously off-the-rails happening in some episodes, and I am definitely not saying that Whedon's treatment of Carpenter was in any way okay or that it shouldn't influence me retrospectively, but. I am saying there was some character development going on there I found fascinating (and in some cases, deeply squicky-horrifying).
*at the time. I can't guess how I'd feel about it if I was watching it for the first time now, but at that point in my life, it hit just right.
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