|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 24, 2015 16:04:35 GMT -5
I just love how this thread has turned into not just gained a big Star Trek component, but one centered on “Code of Honor.” Maybe we can get the mods to just changed the thread name to "Nerds talkin' about shit". |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 26, 2015 11:44:12 GMT -5
So, assuming that they won't be able to completely resist the urge to include callbacks or references to the original trilogy, which ones would you guys find tolerable or even exciting? I, for one, would probably mark out if Luke ends up showing up at the last minute to bail out Han (or even one of the new characters) in the final battle in a role reversal of A New Hope.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 21:29:57 GMT -5
Snoke is the Emperor to Kylo Ren's Vader, correct? Why do you think we haven't seen him yet?
|
|
|
|
Post by Generic Poster on Oct 27, 2015 11:27:57 GMT -5
So if all the people thinking "Luke isn't in the trailers because he's totes evil now" are right, that would be a super dumb twist, right? A lot of people were saying that Benedict Cumberbatch in Star Trek Into Darkness was Khan. I said there was no way an actor that white would play Khan, so dismissed it out of hand. *cough* Not just a white actor. The WHITEST actor. |
|
|
|
Post by Generic Poster on Oct 27, 2015 11:47:21 GMT -5
George Lucas went the other direction; when he re-released the original trilogy in 2004 he had Temeura Morrison - the actor who played Jango Fett and the clonetroopers - re-record all the Stormtrooper dialogue. I imagine that change is being ignored or at any rate contradicted here. Is that right? My memory, and my ears' memory, is that Morrison re-recorded Boba Fett's dialog, but not the Storm Troopers'. |
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Oct 27, 2015 15:18:56 GMT -5
George Lucas went the other direction; when he re-released the original trilogy in 2004 he had Temeura Morrison - the actor who played Jango Fett and the clonetroopers - re-record all the Stormtrooper dialogue. I imagine that change is being ignored or at any rate contradicted here. Is that right? My memory, and my ears' memory, is that Morrison re-recorded Boba Fett's dialog, but not the Storm Troopers'. That would be correct. The Stormtroopers were volunteers, not clones. Which raises questions about who'd be up for that when it's so easy to die. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 15:27:12 GMT -5
Is that right? My memory, and my ears' memory, is that Morrison re-recorded Boba Fett's dialog, but not the Storm Troopers'. That would be correct. The Stormtroopers were volunteers, not clones. Which raises questions about who'd be up for that when it's so easy to die. I wonder if it's promises of higher education tuition and plenty of jobs when you are discharged/retire? |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 27, 2015 15:30:14 GMT -5
That would be correct. The Stormtroopers were volunteers, not clones. Which raises questions about who'd be up for that when it's so easy to die. I wonder if it's promises of higher education tuition and plenty of jobs when you are discharged/retire? Say what you want about Palpatine, but the Imperial Academy will give you the skills you need to have a successful career after being discharged. |
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Oct 27, 2015 15:32:06 GMT -5
That would be correct. The Stormtroopers were volunteers, not clones. Which raises questions about who'd be up for that when it's so easy to die. I wonder if it's promises of higher education tuition and plenty of jobs when you are discharged/retire? That's a lot of people to pay/benefit. It's also a reason why the prequels suck. In the prequels, the Federation/separatists use droids, which is obviously more cost-effective. The only reason the Republic wouldn't do the same is if there was a measurable benefit to having living, breathing humans fight for you. Of course, there are in the real world, but the Stormtroopers never demonstrate that in the original films. For a group of people named after the elite division of the Imperial German Army, they're pretty fucking incompetent. Also, you don't name wars after yourself. "The Clone Wars" obviously should've had the clones be the enemy. And been real guys in suits and not cartoony-looking CGI. But that's a different discussion. |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 27, 2015 15:38:16 GMT -5
I wonder if it's promises of higher education tuition and plenty of jobs when you are discharged/retire? That's a lot of people to pay/benefit. It's also a reason why the prequels suck. In the prequels, the Federation/separatists use droids, which is obviously more cost-effective. The only reason the Republic wouldn't do the same is if there was a measurable benefit to having living, breathing humans fight for you. Of course, there are in the real world, but the Stormtroopers never demonstrate that in the original films. For a group of people named after the elite division of the Imperial German Army, they're pretty fucking incompetent. Also, you don't name wars after yourself. "The Clone Wars" obviously should've had the clones be the enemy. And been real guys in suits and not cartoony-looking CGI. But that's a different discussion. Yea, the decision to make the good guys the clones was always inexplicable to me. "Genetically-engineered army of clones" just doesn't scream "good guys" to me. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 15:38:26 GMT -5
I wonder if it's promises of higher education tuition and plenty of jobs when you are discharged/retire? That's a lot of people to pay/benefit. It's also a reason why the prequels suck. In the prequels, the Federation/separatists use droids, which is obviously more cost-effective. The only reason the Republic wouldn't do the same is if there was a measurable benefit to having living, breathing humans fight for you. Of course, there are in the real world, but the Stormtroopers never demonstrate that in the original films. For a group of people named after the elite division of the Imperial German Army, they're pretty fucking incompetent. Also, you don't name wars after yourself. "The Clone Wars" obviously should've had the clones be the enemy. And been real guys in suits and not cartoony-looking CGI. But that's a different discussion. The REAL discussion is why the fuck the Jedi jumped excitedly at the chance to use an army of soldiers raised from birth solely for war, with no concern about what the Light Side of the Force would think about using living beings as expendable cannon fodder. |
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Oct 27, 2015 15:47:08 GMT -5
That's a lot of people to pay/benefit. It's also a reason why the prequels suck. In the prequels, the Federation/separatists use droids, which is obviously more cost-effective. The only reason the Republic wouldn't do the same is if there was a measurable benefit to having living, breathing humans fight for you. Of course, there are in the real world, but the Stormtroopers never demonstrate that in the original films. For a group of people named after the elite division of the Imperial German Army, they're pretty fucking incompetent. Also, you don't name wars after yourself. "The Clone Wars" obviously should've had the clones be the enemy. And been real guys in suits and not cartoony-looking CGI. But that's a different discussion. Yea, the decision to make the good guys the clones was always inexplicable to me. "Genetically-engineered army of clones" just doesn't scream "good guys" to me. Yeah. Bad dialogue, direction, acting, and special effects is one thing. Even when I didn't realize I didn't like The Phantom Menace, I was confused by so many of the basic creative choices. "Like, who thought to do X?" But it was the 90s, so there were a lot of big budget movies with weird, confusing pseudo-political messages that made even less sense in context (see: every disaster movie from that period). |
|
|
|
Post by Hawkguy on Oct 27, 2015 15:48:25 GMT -5
That's a lot of people to pay/benefit. It's also a reason why the prequels suck. In the prequels, the Federation/separatists use droids, which is obviously more cost-effective. The only reason the Republic wouldn't do the same is if there was a measurable benefit to having living, breathing humans fight for you. Of course, there are in the real world, but the Stormtroopers never demonstrate that in the original films. For a group of people named after the elite division of the Imperial German Army, they're pretty fucking incompetent. Also, you don't name wars after yourself. "The Clone Wars" obviously should've had the clones be the enemy. And been real guys in suits and not cartoony-looking CGI. But that's a different discussion. Yea, the decision to make the good guys the clones was always inexplicable to me. "Genetically-engineered army of clones" just doesn't scream "good guys" to me. I mean they do prove themselves in the clone wars show but yea thats weird |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 27, 2015 15:51:30 GMT -5
Yea, the decision to make the good guys the clones was always inexplicable to me. "Genetically-engineered army of clones" just doesn't scream "good guys" to me. I mean they do prove themselves in the clone wars show but yea thats weird Like so many things in the prequels, it's not that someone couldn't theoretically make it work, it's just a weird choice when there were so many more obvious ones available. And they were obvious because YOU ALLUDED TO THEM IN THE OLD MOVIES YOU MADE 20 YEARS AGO!
"I know I had Obi-Wan say that his father was already a great pilot when they met, and it would make perfect sense to introduce him as an angry young man. But...couldn't we also stretch that into meaning he was an adorable moppet that races space go-karts, even though that will needlessly make these movies harder to pull off?" -George Lucas circa 1997
|
|
|
|
Post by Hawkguy on Oct 27, 2015 15:54:23 GMT -5
I mean they do prove themselves in the clone wars show but yea thats weird Like so many things in the prequels, it's not that someone couldn't theoretically make it work, it's just a weird choice when there were so many more obvious ones available. And they were obvious because YOU ALLUDED TO THEM IN THE OLD MOVIES YOU MADE 20 YEARS AGO! yea he claimed to have the basic outline/beats for the prequels back then but i call bullshit |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 27, 2015 15:55:17 GMT -5
Like so many things in the prequels, it's not that someone couldn't theoretically make it work, it's just a weird choice when there were so many more obvious ones available. And they were obvious because YOU ALLUDED TO THEM IN THE OLD MOVIES YOU MADE 20 YEARS AGO! yea he claimed to have the basic outline/beats for the prequels back then but i call bullshit If that was ever true, then he definitely also spilt coffee on those notes in the mid-80's and hoped for a decade that nobody would actually throw enough money at him to make those movies. |
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Oct 27, 2015 16:29:41 GMT -5
Like so many things in the prequels, it's not that someone couldn't theoretically make it work, it's just a weird choice when there were so many more obvious ones available. And they were obvious because YOU ALLUDED TO THEM IN THE OLD MOVIES YOU MADE 20 YEARS AGO! yea he claimed to have the basic outline/beats for the prequels back then but i call bullshit Yeah, he says that about everything, no matter how obviously untrue. |
|
|
|
Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Oct 27, 2015 16:35:02 GMT -5
I mean they do prove themselves in the clone wars show but yea thats weird Like so many things in the prequels, it's not that someone couldn't theoretically make it work, it's just a weird choice when there were so many more obvious ones available. And they were obvious because YOU ALLUDED TO THEM IN THE OLD MOVIES YOU MADE 20 YEARS AGO!
"I know I had Obi-Wan say that his father was already a great pilot when they met, and it would make perfect sense to introduce him as an angry young man. But...couldn't we also stretch that into meaning he was an adorable moppet that races space go-karts, even though that will needlessly make these movies harder to pull off?" -George Lucas circa 1997
He just made everything harder for himself. Chris Stuckmann's joke-theory is that Lucas saw Lloyd in Jingle All the Way and was inspired. But yeah, so many weird choices. "Let's make the Jedi celibate! Let's have no main character! Let's make best friends Obi-Wan and Anakin hate each other! Let's make the heroic good side stodgy and morally bankrupt!" Etc. |
|
|
|
Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Oct 27, 2015 16:54:25 GMT -5
Snoke is the Emperor to Kylo Ren's Vader, correct? Why do you think we haven't seen him yet? What is a Snoke? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 17:01:41 GMT -5
Of course it can be explained more generally, perhaps, as the Imperial command structure. Vader is Palpatine's Force buddy, but Governor Tarkin is likely the kind of competent military leader the Emperor trusts to get things done - at the time of the movie he probably outranked Vader within the navy. If anything that's always felt to me like a mini-arc of Vader's: In the first movie there is a powerful Imperial official whose commonsensical attitudes (like 'do not strangle to death people for disagreeing with you') reign Vader in, while Vader's concrete command appears to be one Star Destroyer and his own fighter squadron. By the time of the second film Vader has his own fleet of Star Destroyers, a gigantic flagship, and absolutely no oversight - the death of Tarkin has left his influence on the Imperial forces essentially unchecked (until the Emperor shows up, of course.) By the time there is a second Death Star, her new commander is nothing next to Vader. I've always thought of Vader starting out under the Emperor in continuing his mission of hunting down all the Jedi that escaped. From there he becomes the leader of the Emperor's personal special forces unit, which is where he appears to be in episode IV. The first Death Star goes up, taking the Emperor's likely #2 in all governmental/military matters ( Tarkin Doctrine, you guys) and what was probably a fairly impressive roster of military brass with it. So that leaves a HUGE power vacuum within the Empire and particularly the chain of command within the Imperial Navy, while at the same time showing that this ragtag group of rebels is a threat to be taken seriously. It makes sense then to me that Vader is given the charge of "crush the Rebellion at all costs" by the Emperor and ascends from a special ops commander/super-special-Force-buddy to the non-jurisdictional General in Charge of Special Forces, Military Intelligence, and Operation Fuck Those Guys in Particular that we see in ESB and ROTJ. |
|
|
|
Post by Hawkguy on Oct 28, 2015 7:21:05 GMT -5
Of course it can be explained more generally, perhaps, as the Imperial command structure. Vader is Palpatine's Force buddy, but Governor Tarkin is likely the kind of competent military leader the Emperor trusts to get things done - at the time of the movie he probably outranked Vader within the navy. If anything that's always felt to me like a mini-arc of Vader's: In the first movie there is a powerful Imperial official whose commonsensical attitudes (like 'do not strangle to death people for disagreeing with you') reign Vader in, while Vader's concrete command appears to be one Star Destroyer and his own fighter squadron. By the time of the second film Vader has his own fleet of Star Destroyers, a gigantic flagship, and absolutely no oversight - the death of Tarkin has left his influence on the Imperial forces essentially unchecked (until the Emperor shows up, of course.) By the time there is a second Death Star, her new commander is nothing next to Vader. I've always thought of Vader starting out under the Emperor in continuing his mission of hunting down all the Jedi that escaped. From there he becomes the leader of the Emperor's personal special forces unit, which is where he appears to be in episode IV. The first Death Star goes up, taking the Emperor's likely #2 in all governmental/military matters ( Tarkin Doctrine, you guys) and what was probably a fairly impressive roster of military brass with it. So that leaves a HUGE power vacuum within the Empire and particularly the chain of command within the Imperial Navy, while at the same time showing that this ragtag group of rebels is a threat to be taken seriously. It makes sense then to me that Vader is given the charge of "crush the Rebellion at all costs" by the Emperor and ascends from a special ops commander/super-special-Force-buddy to the non-jurisdictional General in Charge of Special Forces, Military Intelligence, and Operation Fuck Those Guys in Particular that we see in ESB and ROTJ. Yall should read the current Darth Vader comic. Not only is it a ton of fun but actually answers most of these thoughts. The Emperor is NOT happy with Vader following the destruction of the Death Star and basically treats him like shit so Vader goes behind his back to hunt for Luke/build his own force. Also it has a muderous Artoo/3po duo. |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 28, 2015 7:45:36 GMT -5
I've always thought of Vader starting out under the Emperor in continuing his mission of hunting down all the Jedi that escaped. From there he becomes the leader of the Emperor's personal special forces unit, which is where he appears to be in episode IV. The first Death Star goes up, taking the Emperor's likely #2 in all governmental/military matters ( Tarkin Doctrine, you guys) and what was probably a fairly impressive roster of military brass with it. So that leaves a HUGE power vacuum within the Empire and particularly the chain of command within the Imperial Navy, while at the same time showing that this ragtag group of rebels is a threat to be taken seriously. It makes sense then to me that Vader is given the charge of "crush the Rebellion at all costs" by the Emperor and ascends from a special ops commander/super-special-Force-buddy to the non-jurisdictional General in Charge of Special Forces, Military Intelligence, and Operation Fuck Those Guys in Particular that we see in ESB and ROTJ. Yall should read the current Darth Vader comic. Not only is it a ton of fun but actually answers most of these thoughts. The Emperor is NOT happy with Vader following the destruction of the Death Star and basically treats him like shit so Vader goes behind his back to hunt for Luke/build his own force. Also it has a muderous Artoo/3po duo. Like the actual R2 and 3PO, or just murderous counterparts? |
|
|
|
Post by Hawkguy on Oct 28, 2015 7:57:02 GMT -5
Yall should read the current Darth Vader comic. Not only is it a ton of fun but actually answers most of these thoughts. The Emperor is NOT happy with Vader following the destruction of the Death Star and basically treats him like shit so Vader goes behind his back to hunt for Luke/build his own force. Also it has a muderous Artoo/3po duo. Like the actual R2 and 3PO, or just murderous counterparts? delightful counterparts |
|
|
|
Post by Generic Poster on Oct 28, 2015 8:27:14 GMT -5
That's a lot of people to pay/benefit. It's also a reason why the prequels suck. In the prequels, the Federation/separatists use droids, which is obviously more cost-effective. The only reason the Republic wouldn't do the same is if there was a measurable benefit to having living, breathing humans fight for you. Of course, there are in the real world, but the Stormtroopers never demonstrate that in the original films. For a group of people named after the elite division of the Imperial German Army, they're pretty fucking incompetent. Also, you don't name wars after yourself. "The Clone Wars" obviously should've had the clones be the enemy. And been real guys in suits and not cartoony-looking CGI. But that's a different discussion. Yea, the decision to make the good guys the clones was always inexplicable to me. "Genetically-engineered army of clones" just doesn't scream "good guys" to me. Also: YOU DON'T NAME WARS AFTER YOUR ALLIES!!!!!!! |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 28, 2015 8:31:14 GMT -5
Yea, the decision to make the good guys the clones was always inexplicable to me. "Genetically-engineered army of clones" just doesn't scream "good guys" to me. Also: YOU DON'T NAME WARS AFTER YOUR ALLIES!!!!!!! It would have made some sense if everyone was fighting with clones, but that would have been even dumber than what they actually did.
Maybe they knew exactly what they were doing. "We're still going to make obscene amounts of money on these movies whether they are any good or not. What if we make them super lousy so all the Star Wars fans also get years of entertainment value out of trying to re-arrange and re-write them into something better?"
|
|
|
|
Post by Generic Poster on Oct 28, 2015 8:40:18 GMT -5
Also: YOU DON'T NAME WARS AFTER YOUR ALLIES!!!!!!! It would have made some sense if everyone was fighting with clones, but that would have been even dumber than what they actually did.
Maybe they knew exactly what they were doing. "We're still going to make obscene amounts of money on these movies whether they are any good or not. What if we make them super lousy so all the Star Wars fans also get years of entertainment value out of trying to re-arrange and re-write them into something better?"
Yeah, except we didn't even have to rewrite them - we just wanted to see the story we were told originally: Arrogant young jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi is fighting in the Clone Wars when he meets Anakin Skywalker, a young fighter pilot who is strong in the Force. He thinks he can train him as well Yoda could. He is wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 28, 2015 8:44:03 GMT -5
It would have made some sense if everyone was fighting with clones, but that would have been even dumber than what they actually did.
Maybe they knew exactly what they were doing. "We're still going to make obscene amounts of money on these movies whether they are any good or not. What if we make them super lousy so all the Star Wars fans also get years of entertainment value out of trying to re-arrange and re-write them into something better?"
Yeah, except we didn't even have to rewrite them - we just wanted to see the story we were told originally: Arrogant young jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi is fighting in the Clone Wars when he meets Anakin Skywalker, a young fighter pilot who is strong in the Force. He thinks he can train him as well Yoda could. He is wrong. Nobody knew they wanted a story about intergalactic trade agreements going in, but Lucas knew better. |
|
|
|
Post by Generic Poster on Oct 28, 2015 8:46:37 GMT -5
Yeah, except we didn't even have to rewrite them - we just wanted to see the story we were told originally: Arrogant young jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi is fighting in the Clone Wars when he meets Anakin Skywalker, a young fighter pilot who is strong in the Force. He thinks he can train him as well Yoda could. He is wrong. Nobody knew they wanted a story about intergalactic trade agreements going in, but Lucas knew better. He also knew we wanted a story about a weird government sponsored cult of bureaucrats, not one about mysterious, near-legendary wandering mystic warrior-monks. |
|
|
|
Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Oct 28, 2015 8:48:55 GMT -5
Nobody knew they wanted a story about intergalactic trade agreements going in, but Lucas knew better. He also knew we wanted a story about a weird government sponsored cult of bureaucrats, not one about mysterious, near-legendary wandering mystic warrior-monks. To be fair, I always wanted a story about religious space musketeers, but I think we're coming from the same place. |
|
|
|
Post by Generic Poster on Oct 28, 2015 8:51:04 GMT -5
He also knew we wanted a story about a weird government sponsored cult of bureaucrats, not one about mysterious, near-legendary wandering mystic warrior-monks. To be fair, I always wanted a story about religious space musketeers, but I think we're coming from the same place. The Warriors Three from Thor are sorta religious space musketeers. |
|
