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Post by Bedroom Pastrami on Jun 22, 2016 16:29:37 GMT -5
As a millennial and as one who has had many conversations with friends about LaCroix and how it seemed to come out of nowhere to become this huge thing we pretty much came up with this: We've been hearing how soda is going to give us flippers and go blind forever, but still like fizzy drinks outside of beer and champagne. LaCroix is one of the cheaper seltzers with good flavors. It's a win-win. An old friend of mine used LaCroix to stop drinking so much damn beer because he'd realized that he didn't like drinking alcohol in particular, he just liked drinking in general. Yeah, my neighborhood bar will stock some for a couple regulars who quit drinking but still wanted to hang around (also designated drivers).
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Invisible Goat
Shoutbox Elitist
Grab your mother's keys, we're leaving
Posts: 2,643
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Post by Invisible Goat on Jun 22, 2016 17:19:17 GMT -5
Still never seen any hard evidence of this "Lacroix," which is the main reason the original article was so baffling and offensive acting like it was omnipresent. Quite frankly it sounds made up.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jun 22, 2016 17:27:16 GMT -5
swagonion ! I was just thinking of you because I just found my unwatched collectionm of Rosselini’s TV historical dramas, bought at a Barnes & Noble sale before a move overseas, in my parents’ basement and will finally get to watch them! That great foreign TV inventory remains one of the highlights of the site’s history for me. As a millennial and as one who has had many conversations with friends about LaCroix and how it seemed to come out of nowhere to become this huge thing we pretty much came up with this: We've been hearing how soda is going to give us flippers and go blind forever, but still like fizzy drinks outside of beer and champagne. LaCroix is one of the cheaper seltzers with good flavors. It's a win-win. It is funny, because I could relate to the part of the article where she's all "Isn't LaCroix a mom drink? Why the hell would this be popular with people my age now?". I can think back to so many early/mid-90's family gatherings where all the aunts had their own cooler of "mineral water". Yeah, my main takeaway from all of this is that I’m shocked that LaCroix is part of any sort of cultural conversation. It’s definitely my mom’s drink and I like it a lot too, because it has a decent, not-overpowering-at-all lime flavor and isn’t expensive. Not knowing about the La Croix’s apparent cachet I’d actually recommend it as a thing with reverse-snob appeal. I have issues with the article—it’s lifestyle reporting while it should be business reporting, and a bit naïve. Little bits of money or complimentary product changing hands without the FTA noticing has been a thing on blogs for years now—I think low-cost, low-risk but effective online marketing’s probably a bigger story than a bunch of TV writers the author follows, though that’s also not a unique story. And while it may not happen at Vox the sort of informal stuff moimoi mentions (not necessarily paid, but aimed at getting bloggers, journalists, &c. on the brand’s side) happens all the time at media outlets. And it isn’t just “fluff”—fluff is something like Bill Cunningham’s photos. The thing about a lot of the Slate bogus trend stories was that they were fluff masquerading as something real—bogus trends would often be about larger things, like gender inequality in careers or the health epidemic of aesthetic contacts, not to mention claiming that “thing I’ve noticed” signals some kind of shift in American society. If it was “my smelly coworker” no one would pay for it with good reason; make it about the decline of bathing in America and then you can get it in the Grey Lady. La Croix’s story isn’t fluff, it’s a legitimate business story. And the increase in their stock shows that they’re probably attracting dumb money. There’s a little bit of couching, but I have to agree with moimoi that even if it’s naïvely done it’s basically PR, complete with personal recommendation.
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Post by swagonion on Jun 22, 2016 17:49:55 GMT -5
Still never seen any hard evidence of this "Lacroix," which is the main reason the original article was so baffling and offensive acting like it was omnipresent. Quite frankly it sounds made up. I was unaware, too, or maybe just not paying attention, because I had lunch with some TV writer friends today, and they all were drinking LaCroix. I've honestly never tried it. I have always stuck to the generic stuff from the grocery store.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 17:55:01 GMT -5
As a millennial and as one who has had many conversations with friends about LaCroix and how it seemed to come out of nowhere to become this huge thing we pretty much came up with this: We've been hearing how soda is going to give us flippers and go blind forever, but still like fizzy drinks outside of beer and champagne. LaCroix is one of the cheaper seltzers with good flavors. It's a win-win. An old friend of mine used LaCroix to stop drinking so much damn beer because he'd realized that he didn't like drinking alcohol in particular, he just liked drinking in general. My uncle, a former massive alcoholic, credits it with helping him go cold turkey.
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LazBro
Prolific Poster
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Post by LazBro on Jun 22, 2016 18:09:44 GMT -5
An old friend of mine used LaCroix to stop drinking so much damn beer because he'd realized that he didn't like drinking alcohol in particular, he just liked drinking in general. My uncle, a former massive alcoholic, credits it with helping him go cold turkey. I'm going to keep this in mind for when I inevitably have to make this choice.
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Post by Pastafarian on Jun 22, 2016 18:24:52 GMT -5
Eh, not that bad? I mean, it's a shameless "hey this is what all the millenials are into now!" traffic generation, but I don't think it's 'product placement'. Hell, Vox openly has sponsored content articles, why the fuck would they lie about fucking sparkling water? They don't want to anger the maniacs over at Coca Cola.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 18:25:23 GMT -5
My uncle, a former massive alcoholic, credits it with helping him go cold turkey. I'm going to keep this in mind for when I inevitably have to make this choice. I should also note that he's an utter douche who I haven't spoken to outside of funerals in a decade, so hopefully LaCroix doesn't have that effect.
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oppy all along
TI Forumite
Who's been messing up everything? It was oppy all along
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Post by oppy all along on Jun 23, 2016 3:29:36 GMT -5
Oh good, kvetching about millennials. That's as original as sarcasm!
I take pride in being part of the Rorschach generation, so named because whatever bitter people see when they write their funny little diatribes on what's wrong with millennial culture inevitably says a lot more about them than it does about us. We're entitled, or we're vapid, or we're ironic, or we're naive, or we're consumerist, or we're thieves, or we're lazy, or we're spoiled, or we're disrespectful, or what the fuck ever who gives a shit what people think? Young people are being young people and doing whatever young people feel like, which verges significantly from what other young people feel like, because with like a billion fucking millennials in the world are you really trying to ascribe universal qualities to the 'generation'? Generational psychology, by the way, is speculative nonsense espoused by morons.
Even just using the word millennial gives unjustifiable credence to generational psychology, which today appears to mean that any random person can cast a wide gaze over society and with laser accuracy pinpoint sweeping and generalised generational trends which inevitably demonstrate that some generation other than theirs is defective. I could find you a dozen 'millennials' who represent everything bad you associate with young people, and a dozen 'millennials' who represent the exact opposite. Forget the armchair sociology and find something more productive to do with your time.
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Post by Nudeviking on Jun 23, 2016 3:52:23 GMT -5
Oh good, kvetching about millennials. That's as original as sarcasm! I take pride in being part of the Rorschach generation, so named because whatever bitter people see when they write their funny little diatribes on what's wrong with millennial culture inevitably says a lot more about them than it does about us. We're entitled, or we're vapid, or we're ironic, or we're naive, or we're consumerist, or we're thieves, or we're lazy, or we're spoiled, or we're disrespectful, or what the fuck ever who gives a shit what people think? Young people are being young people and doing whatever young people feel like, which verges significantly from what other young people feel like, because with like a billion fucking millennials in the world are you really trying to ascribe universal qualities to the 'generation'? Generational psychology, by the way, is speculative nonsense espoused by morons. Even just using the word millennial gives unjustifiable credence to generational psychology, which today appears to mean that any random person can cast a wide gaze over society and with laser accuracy pinpoint sweeping and generalised generational trends which inevitably demonstrate that some generation other than theirs is defective. I could find you a dozen 'millennials' who represent everything bad you associate with young people, and a dozen 'millennials' who represent the exact opposite. Forget the armchair sociology and find something more productive to do with your time. Don't let it get you down too much. Old people have ascribed some assortment of these negative traits to the generation that came after them for at least the past fifty years. Olds bemoaned how terrible my generation was what with our apathy and cynicism...our laziness and poor taste in music and fashion, and now that my generation are the olds we are doing the same thing to the kids that came after us. In ten to fifteen years time the millennials of today will be complaining how Cyborg Children or MechaYouth or whatever are horribly entitled know-it-alls who think they're better than everyone because of cybernetic enhancements and how those cybernetically enhanced teens don't know the real meaning of "hard work."
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Paleu
AV Clubber
Confirmed for neo-liberal shill.
Posts: 1,258
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Post by Paleu on Jun 23, 2016 4:17:34 GMT -5
As a millennial, not only do I not relate to these points, I don't even understand where you're coming from. My generation is probably the most cynical about, inured to, and hyperaware of advertising there's ever been. Marketers are torturing themselves over how to appeal to us, because we think their whole industry is bullshit. Also, this is the first I've ever heard of my generation being "everything's cool - don't be a hater." We have the same cliques and haters as previous generations, right? Like, consider the hipster wars, or Linkin Park, or Trump, or the whole internet. I agree that your generation (and by some accounts mine too, I should mention) is hyper-aware of advertising and inured to it to a large extent. But I don't see much cynicism - I see 'poptimism'. I see kids who identify so closely with products that they see critiques of capitalism as personal attacks. I don't want to get all Fight Club here (though this is exactly what Fight Club is about) but for better or worse, you are not the beverages you consume. This is probably more a product of the millennials you personally know than some hard fact about the generation. Most millennials I know are extremely cynical about advertising and definitely don't define themselves by the soda they drink. I'm not denying that "poptimism" exists, but it's hardly the only or even the default millennial perspective. I'm also just fucking sick of getting slandered by association because I was born from 1985-2000.
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Post by usernametoolong on Jun 23, 2016 5:34:14 GMT -5
Oh good, kvetching about millennials. That's as original as sarcasm! I take pride in being part of the Rorschach generation, so named because whatever bitter people see when they write their funny little diatribes on what's wrong with millennial culture inevitably says a lot more about them than it does about us. We're entitled, or we're vapid, or we're ironic, or we're naive, or we're consumerist, or we're thieves, or we're lazy, or we're spoiled, or we're disrespectful, or what the fuck ever who gives a shit what people think? Young people are being young people and doing whatever young people feel like, which verges significantly from what other young people feel like, because with like a billion fucking millennials in the world are you really trying to ascribe universal qualities to the 'generation'? Generational psychology, by the way, is speculative nonsense espoused by morons. Even just using the word millennial gives unjustifiable credence to generational psychology, which today appears to mean that any random person can cast a wide gaze over society and with laser accuracy pinpoint sweeping and generalised generational trends which inevitably demonstrate that some generation other than theirs is defective. I could find you a dozen 'millennials' who represent everything bad you associate with young people, and a dozen 'millennials' who represent the exact opposite. Forget the armchair sociology and find something more productive to do with your time. Don't let it get you down too much. Old people have ascribed some assortment of these negative traits to the generation that came after them for at least the past fifty years. Olds bemoaned how terrible my generation was what with our apathy and cynicism...our laziness and poor taste in music and fashion, and now that my generation are the olds we are doing the same thing to the kids that came after us. In ten to fifteen years time the millennials of today will be complaining how Cyborg Children or MechaYouth or whatever are horribly entitled know-it-alls who think they're better than everyone because of cybernetic enhancements and how those cybernetically enhanced teens don't know the real meaning of "hard work." Complaints about the feckless and disrespectful young'uns have been around for literally thousands of years, here's a sample going back to Horace: mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything
It's the cycle of life, when I was in school, our teachers were complaining that they'd never seen such a lazy and ignorant generation, given that they were roughly the 68 generation for a few of them, they clearly received the same criticism at the time. And now it's my turn to complain about the young.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jun 23, 2016 8:17:17 GMT -5
Don't let it get you down too much. Old people have ascribed some assortment of these negative traits to the generation that came after them for at least the past fifty years. Olds bemoaned how terrible my generation was what with our apathy and cynicism...our laziness and poor taste in music and fashion, and now that my generation are the olds we are doing the same thing to the kids that came after us. In ten to fifteen years time the millennials of today will be complaining how Cyborg Children or MechaYouth or whatever are horribly entitled know-it-alls who think they're better than everyone because of cybernetic enhancements and how those cybernetically enhanced teens don't know the real meaning of "hard work." Complaints about the feckless and disrespectful young'uns have been around for literally thousands of years, here's a sample going back to Horace: mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything
It's the cycle of life, when I was in school, our teachers were complaining that they'd never seen such a lazy and ignorant generation, given that they were roughly the 68 generation for a few of them, they clearly received the same criticism at the time. And now it's my turn to complain about the young.
And the problem isn't that any particular generation is particularly bad, for the most part*, it's just that as people get into their 30s and 40s, they begin to realize that teenagers and early 20-somethings are utterly awful human beings, almost completely without exception. Not willing to accept that about themselves (because they, too, were awful at that age), they assume it's that generation's problem. Most people grow out of it, of course, but pleasant interaction with a teenager is pretty much an inherent oxymoron. * Except the Boomers, obviously.
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Post by usernametoolong on Jun 23, 2016 11:21:54 GMT -5
Complaints about the feckless and disrespectful young'uns have been around for literally thousands of years, here's a sample going back to Horace: mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything
It's the cycle of life, when I was in school, our teachers were complaining that they'd never seen such a lazy and ignorant generation, given that they were roughly the 68 generation for a few of them, they clearly received the same criticism at the time. And now it's my turn to complain about the young.
And the problem isn't that any particular generation is particularly bad, for the most part*, it's just that as people get into their 30s and 40s, they begin to realize that teenagers and early 20-somethings are utterly awful human beings, almost completely without exception. Not willing to accept that about themselves (because they, too, were awful at that age), they assume it's that generation's problem. Most people grow out of it, of course, but pleasant interaction with a teenager is pretty much an inherent oxymoron. * Except the Boomers, obviously.
The part that always surprises me is that I can't actually think of anyone who looks back on their teenage years or early twenties and doesn't think: "I was such a little shit". Why would anyone expect a later generation to be any different.
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Post by rimjobflashmob on Jun 23, 2016 11:46:46 GMT -5
I had never heard of Lacroix before this thread, and then yesterday I saw one in the wild. I blame all of you for whatever this means.
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Baron von Costume
TI Forumite
Like an iron maiden made of pillows... the punishment is decadence!
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Post by Baron von Costume on Jun 23, 2016 11:47:00 GMT -5
Leaving aside any specific articles, I don't really think there's a generational shift at play here (I mean maybe in the very specific case of The AV Club, but I find that old school AVC readers often seem to remember it as The Hater and then very little else). Fluffy, light features have always been part of journalism, and they've always been popular, because people want to know about [insert trend/hip thing here]. And they can be done well or poorly! That's a problem if you're applying that sort of fluffiness to, like, politicians or policy questions. But when it comes to less essential things, like celebrities or fashion or sparkling water, fluff doesn't really hurt people. (Certainly there are non-fluffy ways to cover these topics, but I don't know that every story on Earth needs a hard-nosed approach to be good.) More broadly speaking, I think what you're talking about is how the internet used to be the primary news source for very few people, and those people tended toward a sort of earned, bitter snark, a kind of exhaustion with the system as it was and a certainty that it would never change. And that also pointed toward institutions like the media itself. To read, say, Gawker in 2005 might have been exhausting and made you feel a little dirty, but it also felt like it was "real" in a way the traditional media didn't (because to this sort of reader, that snark really WAS more real). But now everybody gets their news on the internet, and that means the tools of the old media have largely moved onto the internet unchanged. Some of them have started to die off (the celebrity profile is probably going to go away), and the internet has invented new forms. But for the most part, the vast majority of online #content is there to suggest that things are just fine, that the system is, in some ways, equitable, and that most of the changes we need to make are cosmetic and around the edges. When we know that's not true! So the trick is when to agitate and when to celebrate (because we need both), and what the mixture is. Nobody's figured this out, but I don't think skewing all the time toward snark is the answer. I've tried not to get too into this 'man AVC sucks now' stuff but I certainly wouldn't say I think of the old stuff as The Hater and not much else. I get that TV club classic type stuff isn't a massive revenue driver or anything. That said, YIKES. The last couple months has been so so bad for my personal enjoyment of the site. GJI has reached the point of terrible where they're posting crap that's literally just a directly lifted chunk of a tv show that some OTHER site posted? I have worked in web/new media in the past, I get the benefits of low effort stuff that you can post frequently but when you combine it with their current layout it frequently means that you have a page full of these terrible articles with low comment counts (at least 3/4 of which are some combination of firsties/spammers/people making fun of spammers/people making fun of GJI.) Combined with the late night posting of the actual content articles it means casual visitors or hell even us if we forget when a regular feature is posted or it's something infrequent can pretty easily miss it if it doesn't quite meet the featured article level. Given they seem to be simultaneously cutting back on or cutting completely some of the long time features or coverage that you actually see a lot of engagement on I have to wonder what they think is going to happen when people stop having real reasons to go to the site at all. Maybe it's working for them traffic wise right now but there are certainly far better options out there for those who enjoy random content aggregators so going too far down that path would be foolish imo. edit: err, that was badly written I blame the headache... you get my point though.
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Jun 23, 2016 12:05:26 GMT -5
I'm a little late to this whole mineral/sparkling water argument or whatever.
But part of it has got to me that beverage companies are now pushing sparkling/lightly flavored water like CRAZY, while soda is fading somewhat. There's a health push/realization that soda, even diet, is pretty awful for you and so companies want you to buy water instead. I am sure LaCroix's resurgence has something to do with this. It's a trend that goes beyond one brand. (If this was actually covered in either article, I apologize, I didn't actually read them.)
Also, anecdata, one of the grocery stores I shop at had LaCroix marketers a few months ago giving out full-size cans of the stuff.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jun 23, 2016 12:07:54 GMT -5
I'm a little late to this whole mineral/sparkling water argument or whatever. But part of it has got to me that beverage companies are now pushing sparkling/lightly flavored water like CRAZY, while soda is fading somewhat. There's a health push/realization that soda, even diet, is pretty awful for you and so companies want you to buy water instead. I am sure LaCroix's resurgence has something to do with this. It's a trend that goes beyond one brand. (If this was actually covered in either article, I apologize, I didn't actually read them.) Also, anecdata, one of the grocery stores I shop at had LaCroix marketers a few months ago giving out full-size cans of the stuff. I'm going to use the word anecdata so much now, that's beautiful.
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Post by swagonion on Jun 23, 2016 14:56:00 GMT -5
Leaving aside any specific articles, I don't really think there's a generational shift at play here (I mean maybe in the very specific case of The AV Club, but I find that old school AVC readers often seem to remember it as The Hater and then very little else). Fluffy, light features have always been part of journalism, and they've always been popular, because people want to know about [insert trend/hip thing here]. And they can be done well or poorly! That's a problem if you're applying that sort of fluffiness to, like, politicians or policy questions. But when it comes to less essential things, like celebrities or fashion or sparkling water, fluff doesn't really hurt people. (Certainly there are non-fluffy ways to cover these topics, but I don't know that every story on Earth needs a hard-nosed approach to be good.) More broadly speaking, I think what you're talking about is how the internet used to be the primary news source for very few people, and those people tended toward a sort of earned, bitter snark, a kind of exhaustion with the system as it was and a certainty that it would never change. And that also pointed toward institutions like the media itself. To read, say, Gawker in 2005 might have been exhausting and made you feel a little dirty, but it also felt like it was "real" in a way the traditional media didn't (because to this sort of reader, that snark really WAS more real). But now everybody gets their news on the internet, and that means the tools of the old media have largely moved onto the internet unchanged. Some of them have started to die off (the celebrity profile is probably going to go away), and the internet has invented new forms. But for the most part, the vast majority of online #content is there to suggest that things are just fine, that the system is, in some ways, equitable, and that most of the changes we need to make are cosmetic and around the edges. When we know that's not true! So the trick is when to agitate and when to celebrate (because we need both), and what the mixture is. Nobody's figured this out, but I don't think skewing all the time toward snark is the answer. I've tried not to get too into this 'man AVC sucks now' stuff but I certainly wouldn't say I think of the old stuff as The Hater and not much else. I get that TV club classic type stuff isn't a massive revenue driver or anything. That said, YIKES. The last couple months has been so so bad for my personal enjoyment of the site. GJI has reached the point of terrible where they're posting crap that's literally just a directly lifted chunk of a tv show that some OTHER site posted? I have worked in web/new media in the past, I get the benefits of low effort stuff that you can post frequently but when you combine it with their current layout it frequently means that you have a page full of these terrible articles with low comment counts (at least 3/4 of which are some combination of firsties/spammers/people making fun of spammers/people making fun of GJI.) Combined with the late night posting of the actual content articles it means casual visitors or hell even us if we forget when a regular feature is posted or it's something infrequent can pretty easily miss it if it doesn't quite meet the featured article level. Given they seem to be simultaneously cutting back on or cutting completely some of the long time features or coverage that you actually see a lot of engagement on I have to wonder what they think is going to happen when people stop having real reasons to go to the site at all. Maybe it's working for them traffic wise right now but there are certainly far better options out there for those who enjoy random content aggregators so going too far down that path would be foolish imo. edit: err, that was badly written I blame the headache... you get my point though. Believe me, I share many of your feelings. It is gutting to me to see what's happening to TV Club right now. But I also get that Facebook drives so much traffic now, and it's hard to get people to read, say, classic TV show recaps off a Facebook share. Much easier to get them to read "Jon Snow is Ramsay Bolton." One reason I like working at Vox (shameless plug!) is that we've figured out a way to split the difference between the sort of Facebook bait you basically have to do to survive and more extensive journalism (and have often figured out how to make Facebook interested in that journalism). But it's not an easy time to be in this industry.
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Post by Ron Howard Voice on Jun 23, 2016 15:07:07 GMT -5
Reposting other people's content isn't just AVC either. I write for a local newspaper, and after an article I wrote went up on Wednesday, 3-4 blogs posted Twitter links to their direct copy/pasted versions of my article on their blogs. Those are just scam content farms, but places like Eater do the same thing. The local Eater subsidiary just posted a summary of my colleague's article, and they've occasionally posted summaries of my articles, GJI-style. (EDIT: Joe Blevins's second-by-second recaps of what's happening in a YouTube video might be the low point, though.) A lot of online "journalism" right now is rewriting press releases or saying, "hey, this other website wrote this thing, here's our summary."
Honestly, ultimately, the bottom line problem for me is that we all want expensive stuff handed to us for free. "AVC should pay smart, valuable writers to write smart, valuable things for me to read on my lunch break. Also, they should stop choking my internet with ads. Also, it should be free." Something's got to change.
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Baron von Costume
TI Forumite
Like an iron maiden made of pillows... the punishment is decadence!
Posts: 4,683
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Post by Baron von Costume on Jun 23, 2016 15:16:54 GMT -5
Reposting other people's content isn't just AVC either. I write for a local newspaper, and after an article I wrote went up on Wednesday, 3-4 blogs posted Twitter links to their direct copy/pasted versions of my article on their blogs. Those are just scam content farms, but places like Eater do the same thing. The local Eater subsidiary just posted a summary of my colleague's article, and they've occasionally posted summaries of my articles, GJI-style. (EDIT: Joe Blevins's second-by-second recaps of what's happening in a YouTube video might be the low point, though.) A lot of online "journalism" right now is rewriting press releases or saying, "hey, this other website wrote this thing, here's our summary." Honestly, ultimately, the bottom line problem for me is that we all want expensive stuff handed to us for free. "AVC should pay smart, valuable writers to write smart, valuable things for me to read on my lunch break. Also, they should stop choking my internet with ads. Also, it should be free." Something's got to change. Yeah, and I freely admit I browse avclub with an adblocker on. That's mostly on them though as not only was their ad provider serving such bloatware ads that it would bring any browser I used to its knees to have even one avclub tab open, but I also once got a visit from my security guys telling me that one of their ads was attempting to feed malware. A lot of big American sites (or the ad provider does it) are super bad at providing one set of actual content sensitive ads to serve in the US then selling their Canada/rest of the world ads off to a much scummier provider that will throw up popovers/shitty scripts.
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Baron von Costume
TI Forumite
Like an iron maiden made of pillows... the punishment is decadence!
Posts: 4,683
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Post by Baron von Costume on Jun 23, 2016 15:22:22 GMT -5
I've tried not to get too into this 'man AVC sucks now' stuff but I certainly wouldn't say I think of the old stuff as The Hater and not much else. I get that TV club classic type stuff isn't a massive revenue driver or anything. That said, YIKES. The last couple months has been so so bad for my personal enjoyment of the site. GJI has reached the point of terrible where they're posting crap that's literally just a directly lifted chunk of a tv show that some OTHER site posted? I have worked in web/new media in the past, I get the benefits of low effort stuff that you can post frequently but when you combine it with their current layout it frequently means that you have a page full of these terrible articles with low comment counts (at least 3/4 of which are some combination of firsties/spammers/people making fun of spammers/people making fun of GJI.) Combined with the late night posting of the actual content articles it means casual visitors or hell even us if we forget when a regular feature is posted or it's something infrequent can pretty easily miss it if it doesn't quite meet the featured article level. Given they seem to be simultaneously cutting back on or cutting completely some of the long time features or coverage that you actually see a lot of engagement on I have to wonder what they think is going to happen when people stop having real reasons to go to the site at all. Maybe it's working for them traffic wise right now but there are certainly far better options out there for those who enjoy random content aggregators so going too far down that path would be foolish imo. edit: err, that was badly written I blame the headache... you get my point though. Believe me, I share many of your feelings. It is gutting to me to see what's happening to TV Club right now. But I also get that Facebook drives so much traffic now, and it's hard to get people to read, say, classic TV show recaps off a Facebook share. Much easier to get them to read "Jon Snow is Ramsay Bolton." One reason I like working at Vox (shameless plug!) is that we've figured out a way to split the difference between the sort of Facebook bait you basically have to do to survive and more extensive journalism (and have often figured out how to make Facebook interested in that journalism). But it's not an easy time to be in this industry. Yeah, I totally get the why I just really really hate when sites can get that balance anywhere close to right. Which causes people to stop visiting. Which makes them more desperate for shitty cashflow ideas. As you say it's not an easy time. That's definitely a reason I didn't stay in the business (besides my writing not being good enough to be full time on content.) I don't really miss most of it at all, boring as my current job is.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jun 23, 2016 15:43:11 GMT -5
TL;DR version: It looks to me like, at this point, that there isn’t a good any way to (monetarily) reward engagement of readers over volume, which is unfortunate because it’s engagement—I don’t mean commenting, but reading that makes you grow in some way—that makes reading worthwhile. Ron Howard Voice I think we are starting to see some paid media retrenchment—the obvious case would be newspapers, which mostly seem to require at least some kind of membership, or stuff that’s established but niche in some way—I regularly pick up The New York Review of Books from my local bookstore in part because I like having a big, stapled-together newspaper that I can page through but really because a lot of stuff I want to read online is subscription-only. They’re an established name, though, and I’d guess they’re probably nonprofit. Online I think some sites with a definite, loyal audience manage the freemium model of having basic global content and then another level for paid content. Talking Points Memo does this—I think with paid content you get both long-form investigative reporting and some kind of commenting/community features, but they have an established and specialized audience. I know paid membership for the AVC was discussed in the comments around the time when it started to look like a shift to nüDisqus was inevitable (anyone else remember that—pre-Dissolve-split!—time AVC’s Auld Disqus system was switched to nüDisqus and how freaked out we were?) and when Hear This/Watch This started (which was seen as the harbinger for the site turning into clickbait, which is both kind of true and kind of hilarious when you think back at how solid a lot of those Hear/Watch This articles were, even if they were brief). Paid membership would help stave off the inevitable Disqus hordes and support content, it was thought. I think it was probably a reach—after all, how many AVC commenters are in college/unemployed/ really willing to pay for the privilege to post…OF COCK? But on the other hand I remember people citing an old census the site did of its readership that showed the site’s readership was older and more affluent than one might expect from the comments, and certainly looking at this forum’s membership you see a cross-section of people that’s more than just a bunch of underemployed kids just out of college (like I was during my peak commenting frequency). There’s definitely a sort of middle market—people who are interested but not experts (I was interested in film before the AVC but my growth as a cinephile there was exponential; I liked TV but rarely would have considered it art; I knew TV’s history but wasn’t really engaged with it; I had a vague idea I liked comedy but had never heard of people like Maria Bamford), people with some degree of sophistication but are willing to learn—that the AVC really knew how to capture (and still sometimes does). But that middle media market—and not just for pop culture but for politics, science, &c.—seems to be one that’s being squeezed out.
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Post by 🐍 cahusserole 🐍 on Jun 23, 2016 15:58:24 GMT -5
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jun 23, 2016 16:10:42 GMT -5
That also marks the end for Zack’s SF-heavy Thursday TV Club Classic gig, which was what made me a regular reader of the site back when he was covering The Prisoner (and the reason why my name’s a late-season TNG reference—when I actually started commenting—to boot). I was under the impression they’d already been given a reprieve from the general death of TVC Classic because they only had the final season reviewed and wanted to get the other three covered. I guess that wasn’t enough.
Oof, and this line from Zack’s review:
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Post by Ron Howard Voice on Jun 23, 2016 16:18:31 GMT -5
I also once got a visit from my security guys telling me that one of their ads was attempting to feed malware. I (in the US) have had the IT guys visit me and ask me to stop visiting certain sites (like Serious Eats) because their ad provider was using my computer to launch DOS attacks on Microsoft.
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Post by Dr. Rumak on Jun 23, 2016 16:57:15 GMT -5
Yeah, and I freely admit I browse avclub with an adblocker on. That's mostly on them though as not only was their ad provider serving such bloatware ads that it would bring any browser I used to its knees to have even one avclub tab open, but I also once got a visit from my security guys telling me that one of their ads was attempting to feed malware. A lot of big American sites (or the ad provider does it) are super bad at providing one set of actual content sensitive ads to serve in the US then selling their Canada/rest of the world ads off to a much scummier provider that will throw up popovers/shitty scripts. Indeed, I installed AdBlocker because the ads on AVC were hanging my browser consistently. The latest version of AdBlocker does have an option that seems to allow some Ads through without the ones that cause the problem. I use that setting now. I consider that a fair compromise.
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Post by swagonion on Jun 23, 2016 17:22:42 GMT -5
TL;DR version: It looks to me like, at this point, that there isn’t a good any way to (monetarily) reward engagement of readers over volume, which is unfortunate because it’s engagement—I don’t mean commenting, but reading that makes you grow in some way—that makes reading worthwhile. Ron Howard Voice I think we are starting to see some paid media retrenchment—the obvious case would be newspapers, which mostly seem to require at least some kind of membership, or stuff that’s established but niche in some way—I regularly pick up The New York Review of Books from my local bookstore in part because I like having a big, stapled-together newspaper that I can page through but really because a lot of stuff I want to read online is subscription-only. They’re an established name, though, and I’d guess they’re probably nonprofit. Online I think some sites with a definite, loyal audience manage the freemium model of having basic global content and then another level for paid content. Talking Points Memo does this—I think with paid content you get both long-form investigative reporting and some kind of commenting/community features, but they have an established and specialized audience. I know paid membership for the AVC was discussed in the comments around the time when it started to look like a shift to nüDisqus was inevitable (anyone else remember that—pre-Dissolve-split!—time AVC’s Auld Disqus system was switched to nüDisqus and how freaked out we were?) and when Hear This/Watch This started (which was seen as the harbinger for the site turning into clickbait, which is both kind of true and kind of hilarious when you think back at how solid a lot of those Hear/Watch This articles were, even if they were brief). Paid membership would help stave off the inevitable Disqus hordes and support content, it was thought. I think it was probably a reach—after all, how many AVC commenters are in college/unemployed/ really willing to pay for the privilege to post…OF COCK? But on the other hand I remember people citing an old census the site did of its readership that showed the site’s readership was older and more affluent than one might expect from the comments, and certainly looking at this forum’s membership you see a cross-section of people that’s more than just a bunch of underemployed kids just out of college (like I was during my peak commenting frequency). There’s definitely a sort of middle market—people who are interested but not experts (I was interested in film before the AVC but my growth as a cinephile there was exponential; I liked TV but rarely would have considered it art; I knew TV’s history but wasn’t really engaged with it; I had a vague idea I liked comedy but had never heard of people like Maria Bamford), people with some degree of sophistication but are willing to learn—that the AVC really knew how to capture (and still sometimes does). But that middle media market—and not just for pop culture but for politics, science, &c.—seems to be one that’s being squeezed out. I was there when we did that survey! As I recall, there was some sense that the audience would rebel forcefully, so the idea was never firmly pursued.
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Post by swagonion on Jun 23, 2016 17:24:11 GMT -5
That also marks the end for Zack’s SF-heavy Thursday TV Club Classic gig, which was what made me a regular reader of the site back when he was covering The Prisoner (and the reason why my name’s a late-season TNG reference—when I actually started commenting—to boot). I was under the impression they’d already been given a reprieve from the general death of TVC Classic because they only had the final season reviewed and wanted to get the other three covered. I guess that wasn’t enough. Oof, and this line from Zack’s review: I spent most of my last year there fighting to keep TV Club Classic alive a while longer, but it was on life support back in 2012 or '13, whenever Netflix streaming became the more common method of watching stuff.
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edked
AV Clubber
Posts: 7
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Post by edked on Jun 23, 2016 17:26:50 GMT -5
Will Harris has tweeted that Middle/Goldbergs coverage has been dropped (but that he has not officially been dropped as a contributor) and that he knows that "others are going to be getting the same e-mail," so TV Club is going to be even worse by this fall.
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