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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 11:00:49 GMT -5
Oh yeah... They mentioned the Romulan war, but that is also pre-Federation. Also the Franklin was the first ship capable of warp 4, so that's definitely pre-Federation, but the NX-01 Enterprise could go warp 5...so I don't know, the timeline is a little wonky. Also did they restart the numbering with the NX-01 Enterprise? There was also an NX-02, Columbia, but the Franklin was NX-326. My thinking on that, to sort of make it all fit: The Franklin pre-dates the Enterprise NX-01, and upon the creation of Starfleet it's re-purposed as the USS Franklin to fill out the fleet a bit and given a new registry number of 326 - perhaps "NX" being kept due to it being a pre-Starfleet prototype, or something along those lines.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 12:56:05 GMT -5
I actually just saw that Trek Core pretty much confirms the theory I posited via Beyond editor Dylan Highsmith: "If you want the official explanation on the Franklin and its warp factor: it was a M.A.C.O. ship (or a United Earth Starfleet ship that housed M.A.C.O. personnel at times) that predates the NX-01. When the UFP Starfleet is formed, M.A.C.O. was disbanded and the ship was reclassified as a Starfleet ship [with the USS identifier]. The ship is then “lost” in the early 2160’s. It was important to everyone that the ship, like Edison, predate the Federation; that thematically, the ship mirrored an earlier time in history and served as a bridge in design between then and the NX-01. Doug [Jung] and Simon [Pegg] may have worked up something [on an official launch date], but if they did it never made it to script or screen. Either way it predates the NX-01, and was reclassified after the UFP is formed."
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jul 25, 2016 14:28:17 GMT -5
NicoNicoRose A roughly similar premise to Star Trek: Vanguard was the basis of Star Trek: Hidden Frontier, a fan Trek series set in the Briar Patch from Insurrection on a new station called Deep Space 12. I used to watch that.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 25, 2016 23:26:30 GMT -5
I just wish the story had been tweaked a bit to remove some of the nonsensical parts. Basically, I didn't like anything to do with the space station. Lop that off entirely, and then I would have liked the film. Enterprise flies into a mysterious uncharted nebula in response to a distress call? Get attacked by an unknown planet, crash, crew scattered, have to fend for themselves.... All that stuff I like. The smart thing about the Yorktown is it took the role held by Earth in the last three Star Trek films: Spoilery stuff removed I mean, that's all nice. And I'm glad the movie wasn't set at Earth. But, nothing that happened on the space station made a lick of sense. WTF is the Federation doing building a gigantic civilian-residential space station on the edge of uncharted, unknown space? This alien shows up there whom they don't know at all, and they ask zero questions and just send the Enterprise in? WTF? I'd have bought the movie if it had just opened with "Captains Log: We received a distress call from the ship _____. It was last seen near this uncharted nebula. The Enterprise is going in to look for possible survivors." That eliminates my entire problem from the beginning where they have this mysterious unknown alien there and ask ZERO questions and just send the Enterprise in. That is totally insane. (I mean, this would be eliminating the whole space station.) The ending is just insanely ridiculous to me. I mean, WTF? Just beam it into space! You all have transporters, right? I saw you all use them on poor McCoy TWICE! Heard him complain about it both times, too! Rightly so. And that wasn't even the space station! Why was this a long drawn out chase/fight scene? Because the visual effects demanded it. It made no sense in the Star Trek universe.
I loved the whole middle section involving the Enterprise, the planet, the crew working separately to solve the problem. Loved all of that. If the planet had been run by Xenophobes who pulled all nearby spacecraft in and refused to let them leave or transmit data, and they all had to escape/convince the aliens to let them leave, that would have been a truly great Trek story. The whole frame with everything that happens on the space station is nonsensical and seems designed around showing off visual effects rather than doing anything that makes sense in-universe.
What you all are saying about the villain still doesn't make him make sense to me.
He didn't like what the Federation made him do. But he felt abandoned by it. And then he used some magic device to steal lifeforce from other people? And spent decades hunting a superweapon? And somehow has all these minions who aren't the Franklin crew? Why? And none of this was even brought up until the very end of the movie. Rendering Uhura's entire plot pointless. This is all a big mess. Not revealing who he is until the end makes all previous conversation with him meaningless. It doesn't allow the film to develop any theme.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jul 26, 2016 8:18:34 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I agree the movie doesn't explain some elements of Krall's plan particularly well, and he's ultimately another scowly frowny angry bad guy, but as for these points: Starbase Yorktown isn't just on the frontier, it's apparently close enough to multiple recently admitted Federation worlds that they would also serve as a viable base, and was constructed so as to not show favouritism for any of those worlds. So even if it didn't exist, there'd be M-class planets with presumably millions or billions of Federation citizens in the general area - kind of makes sense to have a major Starfleet presence. It's also narratively important because it's where Krall attacks in the third act - the crew do need to have something to stop, and they can hardly stop him destroying the Enterprise at this point.
This said, I'd thought that Krall's supporters were the Franklin crew, and Memory Alpha suggests they either were (like Kalara and Manas, the two that got names) or, in the event of the Swarm drones - the armoured guys, the fleet of pods disrupted by the Beastie Boys - they were Ancient One technology that Krall was using, like that device he wanted to take from Kirk.
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LazBro
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Post by LazBro on Jul 26, 2016 10:16:51 GMT -5
Saw it Saturday. This was a hell of a good ride, if not a particularly complex or thoughtful one. For sure the most commanding performance from Pine, with great character work from Quinto and Urban. The early attack on the Enterprise with Krall and his "bees" is for me one of the standout action set pieces of the franchise. If we're going to destroy the Enterprise - and when aren't we - rarely if ever has it been done with such spectacle and with such a sense of danger. Jaylah was a terrific add as well. Loved her swagger as she draped herself across the captain's chair in the Franklin while Kirk not so subtly hinted that he expected the chair to go to him. If she found her way onto the crew for Star Trek 4 I would not mind a bit. On the other side, while Krall's sheer might in that opening attack blew me away, he was ultimately not a very interesting villain. His reasoning was revealed too late, even if the how's of the reveal, with Uhura recognizing his voice in the video, was a nice touch. And the plot element of the super weapon was a lazy macguffin (hell, how much could he have accomplished with just his bees in a surprise attack on the station?). I'm also ready for a new ending. Assault on the elite human city (regardless of location) is the ending of so many damn movies. Beyond, Into Darkness, Guardians of the Galaxy ... with the endings of Beyond and Guardians being crazy similar.
Anyway, dug it a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 11:16:51 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I agree the movie doesn't explain some elements of Krall's plan particularly well, and he's ultimately another scowly frowny angry bad guy, but as for these points: Starbase Yorktown isn't just on the frontier, it's apparently close enough to multiple recently admitted Federation worlds that they would also serve as a viable base, and was constructed so as to not show favouritism for any of those worlds. So even if it didn't exist, there'd be M-class planets with presumably millions or billions of Federation citizens in the general area - kind of makes sense to have a major Starfleet presence. It's also narratively important because it's where Krall attacks in the third act - the crew do need to have something to stop, and they can hardly stop him destroying the Enterprise at this point.
This said, I'd thought that Krall's supporters were the Franklin crew, and Memory Alpha suggests they either were (like Kalara and Manas, the two that got names) or, in the event of the Swarm drones - the armoured guys, the fleet of pods disrupted by the Beastie Boys - they were Ancient One technology that Krall was using, like that device he wanted to take from Kirk. That is how I read it, too: Krall's main associates were the other surviving Franklin crew members, prolonged in life and mutated by the same alien technology that had kept him alive. The scene at the end, where Kirk and Commodore Paris were closing the missing-in-action files on the Franklin crew, showed not only Captain Edison (Krall) but also two other Franklin crew members: Jessica Wolff (who is stated on Memory Alpha to have become Kalara, who lured the Enterprise to Altamid) and Anderson Le, who MA lists as becoming Krall's closest associate, Manas.
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Jul 26, 2016 12:33:46 GMT -5
No spoilers this time! Is Commodore Paris supposed to be Tom Paris' ancestor? Assuming that she wouldn't have that name otherwise...
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 26, 2016 13:31:42 GMT -5
No spoilers this time! Is Commodore Paris supposed to be Tom Paris' ancestor? Assuming that she wouldn't have that name otherwise... I couldn't find anything on Memory Alpha about it, so:
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jul 26, 2016 22:40:17 GMT -5
No, you guys. I'm not talking about Krall's 2 main supporters. I mean, who are the MINIONS? Who are all those seemingly hundreds of other people helping him? That's not the Franklin crew. In his log he said the vast majority of them died. So who are these hundreds of other people in the swarm? Why would they help this dude? Makes no sense.
I also don't think they needed a 3rd Act where the villain attacked some other location. Crew didn't need to have something to stop. I still think the plot would have been better if the point was them trying to LEAVE. That's it. They just have to figure out how to escape. Would have required a rewrite of the villain. But, this whole "Oh no! Villain is going to attack a city of millions of people" thing is way overplayed in film right now. I'd be happy to not see this again in film in several years, in fact. It turns every single action movie into the same story. Over and over and over.
Again, *planets* with millions/bilions of people on them are different than an artificially constructed residential space station. Ditto a Starbase that is just a Starfleet base. You don't put this crazy residential space station with millions of civilians next to uncharted space. A planet being near that nebula would have meant nothing to that villain with that superweapon. He needed an enclosed space for his (super slooooooow) superweapon. Planet or space station, one would figure that Starfleet would have actually charted the local neighborhood by now, eh? I just find every single thing about that station to be ridiculous. The way it is used in the story is nonsensical. It truly feels to me like they created the visual effect first and then tried to write the characters and story around it.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 27, 2016 7:52:30 GMT -5
No, you guys. I'm not talking about Krall's 2 main supporters. I mean, who are the MINIONS? Who are all those seemingly hundreds of other people helping him?
They're the crews of the other ships he's trapped; the traitor alien's crew, for example. His chief lieutenants are probably those handful of survivors from the Franklin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 16:07:57 GMT -5
No, you guys. I'm not talking about Krall's 2 main supporters. I mean, who are the MINIONS? Who are all those seemingly hundreds of other people helping him? They aren't people - my understanding is that: The only Franklin survivors are Captain Edison (Krall), Anderson Le (Manas), and Jessica Wolff (Kalara, the "traitor alien"). The "soldiers" are the drone workforce Krall mentions, left behind by the former aliens of Altamid along with the swarm ships and the life-prolonging technology - they aren't people, they're robotic drone laborers (or, perhaps, security/military drone robots) that Edison/Krall has repurposed. memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Swarm_drone
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 28, 2016 11:55:19 GMT -5
There was just a TV spot with an absolutely massive spoiler in it that was clearly the focus of the ad. WTF?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 12:11:11 GMT -5
There was just a TV spot with an absolutely massive spoiler in it that was clearly the focus of the ad. WTF? That must be why Simon Pegg said a week or two ago that if you're a Trek fan planning to see the movie, stop watching trailers immediately.
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Post by Jimmy James on Jul 29, 2016 23:16:58 GMT -5
Got back from this a couple hours ago. Overall, I liked it- better than Into Darkness. It may not enter the echelon of top Trek in my book, but I could see revisiting it as often as Search for Spock or Generations. -Splitting up the crew seems to help these movies. It makes The Voyage Home work, and to a lesser extent First Contact with the two distinct planet and Enterprise teams. Works well here too, with all of the main cast getting some good moments- the McCoy / Spock pairing was classic in the original Trek, but I can't recall them getting as many good scenes in any of the reboots as they get here. Karl Urban is the highlight of the new cast.
-Yes to new planets and new aliens. The opening scenes on the red-foliage planet were my favorite part of Into Darkness, but it went downhill when it became a stale retread of Khan. IMDb says this is the first Trek film to not show or even mention Klingons. Don't get me wrong, I like Klingons and I like Worf (some of my best friends are Klingons!) but I enjoyed that they made use of a movie-size budget to take us somewhere a little novel, and even have some non-humanoid aliens in the opening.
-I walked out feeling a little confused about Krall's motivation, but I feel more reasonable about it on reflection. I recall hearing a rumor about an early draft of Insurrection that centered on a Starfleet admiral or captain going kind of Colonel Kurtz out on the frontier, and I'm curious how similar that would have come off relative to Idris Elba here. Though it all still leaves the question of why whatever aliens made the weapon beamed it into space instead of destroying it.
-On the negative side, a couple of fight scenes during the boarding of the ship were kind of muddled- low lighting and rapid cuts made it hard to follow. This bothered me in Nemesis and Into Darkness, and I was worried it would become a repeated thing here. Lin mostly avoided it, though. Kind of rolled my eyes at the Beastie Boys bit. It's not that I hate fun, but the best Trek has a way of feeling timeless. Pop culture references can have a way of making it feel dated, and you don't want to wind up looking like Joe Piscopo in "The Outrageous Okona".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 16:09:49 GMT -5
Nah, fuck it, I'm in on this. Star Trek into darkness was a true piece of shit and it tried to be serious and dramatic and all that stuff. But this looks like a small action adventure which I'm totally fine with. Trek can be stuff other than waxing philosophical. So them just stepping back to a do a simple action story where the crew must escape(or I hope this is what the plot seems to be) a dangerous planet and dangerous aliens, I'm okay with. And Lin is a great action director, though I do hope it isn't as stupid as some of the fast movies can get. It isn't going to be the best trek movie, but at this point all I need is a competent enough movie that I can like, baby steps. well, this was exactly what I wanted.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 16:26:03 GMT -5
I got a free digital copy of into darkness for buying my beyond ticket on fandango. There is no way I can explain how much that will never be used.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jul 30, 2016 17:23:14 GMT -5
I recall hearing a rumor about an early draft of Insurrection that centered on a Starfleet admiral or captain going kind of Colonel Kurtz out on the frontier, and I'm curious how similar that would have come off relative to Idris Elba here. Though it all still leaves the question of why whatever aliens made the weapon beamed it into space instead of destroying it. This is true. Michael Piller wrote an unpublished available online book called Fade In, which detailed the history of the various ideas considered and then discarded (IIRC the character was a former Academy classmate of Picard's, and was named Duffy.) I disliked calling it 'classical music', to be honest - I get that it's a joke, but we don't refer to music hall music from the nineteenth century as 'classical music,' it suggests that classical music is just popular music plus time, which isn't quite how that works.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jul 30, 2016 17:51:18 GMT -5
Now that the initial “I just saw a movie!” faded I’d say this is an upper-middle tier Trek movie, which is a category I don’t really think existed until this one.
Also “Duffy” is just the lamest villain name ever, Michael Piller. Give him a badass-sounding white guy name.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 31, 2016 7:45:52 GMT -5
Now that the initial “I just saw a movie!” faded I’d say this is an upper-middle tier Trek movie, which is a category I don’t really think existed until this one. I think it's probably where I'd put The Search for Spock and the '09 one two, with Beyond as the best of the three and '09 as the weakest. I think a vague consensus grouping would probably be something like: Top tier: 2/4/6/8 Upper Middle: Beyond/3/2009 Lower Middle: 1/Generations Either Lower Middle or Bottom, depending on who you're talking to: 5 & Insurrection Garbage Tier: Nemesis, STID.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 9:05:17 GMT -5
I'm not doing tiers but my rankings
Galaxy Quest Khan If DS9 ever had a proper movie it would likely be here Undiscovered Country First Contact Beyond Star Trek Voyage Home Search For Spock Generations The slow motion picture So not the final frontier Insurrection If voyager had a movie it would be here Nemesis
I think I covered all movies, yep, no more star trek movies I can think of at all. Can't wait for the third nutrek film now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 9:34:57 GMT -5
If I had to do some rankings off the cuff:
TWoK TUC TMP Beyond FC TVH TSfS GEN ST09 INS TFF NEM STID
There might be a bit of jostling for position between Beyond, FC, and TVH, depending on my mood.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 10:17:44 GMT -5
The only star trek film that I've seen with no one liking it is insurrection. Just a random thought
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 11:06:00 GMT -5
Insurrection would have been better if it wasn't mostly a rehash a ST:TNG episode.
I find it funny, Matt, that you think there's a Trek movie in existence called "Nemesis". Wasn't that just some shitty sci-fi film with a wimpy looking Tom Hardy?
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Jul 31, 2016 11:06:15 GMT -5
The only star trek film that I've seen with no one liking it is insurrection. Just a random thought I find Insurrection to be just as forgettable as Nemesis. But Data playing with the fish underwater...I still think that's funny. There was a very early TNG novel where Data had to walk underwater for some reason. That scene always reminded me of that, I wonder if it was intentional.
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Post by rimjobflashmob on Jul 31, 2016 11:10:02 GMT -5
The only star trek film that I've seen with no one liking it is insurrection. Just a random thought Nemesis and STID are insultingly, glaringly bad, but Insurrection is almost worse because it's slightly better, just enough to be completely milquetoast. There's nothing worse than being mediocre and bland in every conceivable way.
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Post by Generic Poster on Aug 1, 2016 10:17:09 GMT -5
Krall should have spent 100s of years looking for a more effective weapon than what was effectively a can of nerve gas. I was hoping the thing was going to be the key to one of those planet-eating cigars from "The Doomsday Machine."
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Post by Generic Poster on Aug 1, 2016 10:20:40 GMT -5
Urban & Quinto, as remarked upon in other reviews, really knock it out of the park in all the McCoy/Spock scenes, but I'm particularly impressed with Chris Pine - he feels SO MUCH MORE like Kirk proper than he ever has. He's gone from a generic Bad Boy to feeling like a real Starfleet captain. I'm really impressed by his performance. Also, Jaylah is a ridiculously charming character and I hope she becomes a permanent fixture. She's great, Boutella is great as her, and I want more of that character in the future. Yes, Chris Pine is really good in this movie! I thought it was his best performance out of the three films. The character felt more like Kirk to me. That is probably partially because the interaction between Spock/McCoy/Kirk felt much more like Original Trek. Scotty also felt more like Scotty, too. Jaylah seems a big hit amongst everyone I've talked to. Yeah, I really liked her. She had some great character scenes. Loved her whole vibe. Nice performance by Boutella. I just wish the story had been tweaked a bit to remove some of the nonsensical parts. Basically, I didn't like anything to do with the space station. Lop that off entirely, and then I would have liked the film. Enterprise flies into a mysterious uncharted nebula in response to a distress call? Get attacked by an unknown planet, crash, crew scattered, have to fend for themselves.... All that stuff I like. But, I don't think the film should have had the "villain has a superweapon and wants to destroy the Federation" angle. It didn't really fit the rest of the story. The superweapon was dumb. The climax was dumb. I still don't even understand the villain's motivation or backstory. Not even sure what the thematic thrust of the film is supposed to be. This still makes it better than Into Darkness. That was just godawful terrible. There was basically nothing in that which I liked. This one had fun characters - the REAL Trek characters, and at least half of a fun story. I think Pine was the most Kirk-like in this one because you got to ignore nu-Trek's "Kirk is a churlish punk" origin for him. Although they still forced the "I joined Starfleet on a dare" thing in there.
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Post by Generic Poster on Aug 1, 2016 10:55:10 GMT -5
I liked this best of the reboot films. Somebody in Hollywood really needs to get a handle on the villain situation, though, Trek is up there with Marvel now in terms of superfluous bad guys with nonsensical plans and nonexistent motivations. At least they didn't add a new story-destroying technology in this one, like instant travel anywhere in the galaxy or a cure for death.
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Post by Generic Poster on Aug 1, 2016 10:59:31 GMT -5
At least they didn't add a new story-destroying technology in this one, like instant travel anywhere in the galaxy or a cure for death. Well, thank Heaven (and Justin Lin) for small favors I guess Pegg too!
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