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Post by Mr. Greene's October Surprise on Feb 18, 2018 1:09:08 GMT -5
So... I've created a discussion thread for people to post their spoilery opinions on the recently-released Marvel film Black Panther, now that they've seen it.  Let's have people get their opinions on! I loved it. Great cast; wonderful sentiment, of growing and of the bonds between fathers and sons, and families; and HOLY SHIT, Ryan Coogler is going up in the world!  I'll leave the spoilering to you. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Feb 18, 2018 11:01:39 GMT -5
Some random thoughts in no particular order. - For the most part I thought it was terrific, but it has a few flaws, so I voted like not love. It's quite slow in getting started - not the worst sin a Marvel movie can make, but still - and that means it takes a touch too long to get the momentum going.
- I greatly admire the film for not much bothering with Europe or, for the most part, America at all (the framing scenes were enough), and sticking to an African and South Asian setting.
- Oh Forest Whitaker, we adore you.
- It's fairly clear that this isn't the largest budget movie in the Marvel franchise either - some of the landscapes were very fake "actors in front of green screen, we made this in Photoshop".
- Andy Serkis is beyond awesome, and it's a great shame he was killed off is what ended up being a rather lame manner.
- Chadwick Boseman - phowarr. See also: Jordan, Michael B. Oh, also, they can act.
- However - and this is a big however for me - any movie that ends with two dudes punching each other is always going to represent a disappointing failure of imagination, and the fact that it's two black dudes punching each other instead of two white dudes punching each other doesn't really change that. One of the absolute joys of something like Doctor Strange is that the bad guy was basically defeated by existentialism rather than fisticuffs, and that's just fantastic - I adore that ending. Here? Punch, punch, punchpunchpunch, punch. Oh, and a stab to round things off. A poor ending to the film, honestly, a great let-down, and one thrown into sharp relief because there's just so much imagination elsewhere in the film (nice stinger of a final line from Kilmonger at least).
- Mostly, though, very good indeed. Plus attack rhinos! Who doesn't love an attack rhino?
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Post by Lone Locust of the Apocalypse on Feb 18, 2018 13:13:43 GMT -5
Re: the cheapness of the movie
It was a shame that the only thing we saw of the Wakandan city was that damn marketplace.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 18, 2018 15:33:26 GMT -5
Like didn’t seem quite high enough, so I figured I’d round up to be safe.
Killmonger is easily the best antagonist (I hesitate to say villain) but...not my favorite Michael B. Jordan performance? He’s AMAZING in the set up and quiet parts, not as convincing in shouting bad guy mode.
Overall though, a testament to superhero movies not being “dead”, just in need of some real ideas.
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Post by nowimnothing on Feb 18, 2018 15:40:18 GMT -5
This is probably skewed for a number of reasons which I will get into, but it fell flat for me. The backdrops were colorful but they felt about as real as those in The Phantom Menace. The plot seemed cribbed from The Lion King, even including dream sequences with the wise father. The highlights were the villain and the women. Black Panther himself was really bland and one note.
I am perfectly willing to give it another chance though, because we probably did not give it a fair shake. First, my wife and I were tired and she fell asleep during the movie and so we left around the half way point. Maybe it got better in the second half. Second there was something wrong with the projection and the bottom 1/3 of the screen was noticeably blurry especially when there were subtitles. Finally the couple next to us were talking and checking facebook the entire time.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Feb 18, 2018 15:53:23 GMT -5
We just got back and we both loved it. Every scene with T'Challa and Shuri was gold, and Nakia and Okoye were great, too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 17:29:50 GMT -5
John Panther dies.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 18, 2018 18:03:05 GMT -5
This is probably skewed for a number of reasons which I will get into, but it fell flat for me. The backdrops were colorful but they felt about as real as those in The Phantom Menace. The plot seemed cribbed from The Lion King, even including dream sequences with the wise father. The highlights were the villain and the women. Black Panther himself was really bland and one note. I am perfectly willing to give it another chance though, because we probably did not give it a fair shake. First, my wife and I were tired and she fell asleep during the movie and so we left around the half way point. Maybe it got better in the second half. Second there was something wrong with the projection and the bottom 1/3 of the screen was noticeably blurry especially when there were subtitles. Finally the couple next to us were talking and checking facebook the entire time. Not that everyone has to love every movie, but those sound like comically poor viewing conditions to form an opinion out of. |
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Post by Dr. Rumak on Feb 18, 2018 18:47:38 GMT -5
My biggest complaint was that Martin Freeman looks too much like a slightly older Jeremy Renner throughout the whole film (mostly, of the Renner character in the last couple of Mission: Impossible films, especially since Renner's character was a CIA agent, but still the fact that Renner is already in the MCU kept distracting me).
Other than that, the night fight/chase scene was too dark, but that may have been the theater, and yes, I feel like it could have probably been 15-20 minutes shorter without losing anything.
But I still vote love. Pretty much everything I want in a superhero movie.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 19, 2018 9:06:34 GMT -5
One thing I've been wondering since yesterday: what is the mountain tribe's deal? Like...do they have access to any of the Wakandan technology? Do they abide by the nation's isolationist doctrine? Are they basically Wakanda Amish? Were those big club things they bring to the final battle also vibranium? I need a whole T'Challa-less Wakanda spin-off to answer some of these questions.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Feb 19, 2018 9:20:23 GMT -5
One thing I've been wondering since yesterday: what is the mountain tribe's deal? Like...do they have access to any of the Wakandan technology? Do they abide by the nation's isolationist doctrine? Are they basically Wakanda Amish? Were those big club things they bring to the final battle also vibranium? I need a whole T'Challa-less Wakanda spin-off to answer some of these questions. I think they're closest to Wakandan Amish. They deliberately isolate themselves, and the implication at the challenge seemed to be that that was the first time they had turned up in anything in ages. The later scene with M'Baku seemed to imply the same - there was some low-level hostility, but otherwise the Gorilla tribe benefited from Wakanada's isolationism (at least in the sense that they didn't need to worry about being invaded) but otherwise didn't have access to Wakandan technology or involve themselves in government affairs. My suspicion is that, in the sequel, integrating the Gorilla tribe into Wakandan society again is going to be an on-again, off-again plot point, but I kind of doubt that M'Baku will go full-out villain. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 19, 2018 9:27:27 GMT -5
One thing I've been wondering since yesterday: what is the mountain tribe's deal? Like...do they have access to any of the Wakandan technology? Do they abide by the nation's isolationist doctrine? Are they basically Wakanda Amish? Were those big club things they bring to the final battle also vibranium? I need a whole T'Challa-less Wakanda spin-off to answer some of these questions. I think they're closest to Wakandan Amish. They deliberately isolate themselves, and the implication at the challenge seemed to be that that was the first time they had turned up in anything in ages. The later scene with M'Baku seemed to imply the same - there was some low-level hostility, but otherwise the Gorilla tribe benefited from Wakanada's isolationism (at least in the sense that they didn't need to worry about being invaded) but otherwise didn't have access to Wakandan technology or involve themselves in government affairs. My suspicion is that, in the sequel, integrating the Gorilla tribe into Wakandan society again is going to be an on-again, off-again plot point, but I kind of doubt that M'Baku will go full-out villain. Yea, given the ending of this movie and how I'd assume Wakanda plays into the next Avengers movie, something that looks like the first arc of Te-Nehisi Coates' series would make a lot of sense (the gist is "hey, maybe we don't want to be ruled by a monarch who moonlights as a superhero and makes our nation a big target for supervillains and alien conquerors"). The downside there would be going back to the well of "T'Challa fends off a challenger to the throne" right away, even if it's not really the same plot. |
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Feb 19, 2018 10:46:44 GMT -5
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 19, 2018 10:48:41 GMT -5
Get this man working on a BP2 script IMMEDIATELY. |
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Post by WKRP Jimmy Drop on Feb 19, 2018 16:56:46 GMT -5
I really liked that it wasn't so much of a superhero movie as it was a character piece. I could have been perfectly happy without the super-heroing parts and with more Wakanda travelogue, personal interaction, sibling goofiness, and New King Uncertainty. And definitely more M'Baku.
Also, why so little Angela Bassett? She was perfect when we saw her.
Also also it bothers me that his last name is Ross. Is he supposed to be related to Thaddeus Ross, or was it just a lazy day over in character-naming land?
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Post by Ben Grimm on Feb 19, 2018 18:22:55 GMT -5
I really liked that it wasn't so much of a superhero movie as it was a character piece. I could have been perfectly happy without the super-heroing parts and with more Wakanda travelogue, personal interaction, sibling goofiness, and New King Uncertainty. And definitely more M'Baku. Also, why so little Angela Bassett? She was perfect when we saw her. Also also it bothers me that his last name is Ross. Is he supposed to be related to Thaddeus Ross, or was it just a lazy day over in character-naming land? You'd have to ask Christopher Priest. Chances are, he just wasn't thinking about it - Thaddeus Ross was kind of at a low ebb around then (1998) anyway. |
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Feb 23, 2018 16:29:50 GMT -5
Re: the cheapness of the movie It was a shame that the only thing we saw of the Wakandan city was that damn marketplace. I thought the same thing. You kind of leave with the impression that Wakanda is a technological metropolis with approximately a hundred people living in it and approximately the same number of people out on the borders keeping the facade of being poor farmers up. |
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Feb 23, 2018 16:33:35 GMT -5
I really liked that it wasn't so much of a superhero movie as it was a character piece. I could have been perfectly happy without the super-heroing parts and with more Wakanda travelogue, personal interaction, sibling goofiness, and New King Uncertainty. And definitely more M'Baku. Also, why so little Angela Bassett? She was perfect when we saw her. Also also it bothers me that his last name is Ross. Is he supposed to be related to Thaddeus Ross, or was it just a lazy day over in character-naming land? I was kind of hoping she'd show back up at the end, perhaps being the reason the gorilla guys changed their minds. |
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Feb 24, 2018 18:35:23 GMT -5
Re: the cheapness of the movie It was a shame that the only thing we saw of the Wakandan city was that damn marketplace. I thought the same thing. You kind of leave with the impression that Wakanda is a technological metropolis with approximately a hundred people living in it and approximately the same number of people out on the borders keeping the facade of being poor farmers up. I wonder if part of this is because we have to assume that Wakanda is a nice place for ordinary randos and that it’s not just a playground for a bunch of vibranium-clad chiefs and royals. We have futuristic cities like Wakanda’s capital (sans maglevs…in most cases) today in places like the east side of Beijing and Doha, and they can be pretty incredibly alienating, making you hyper-aware of the inequality and level of oligarchy in such cities, and their public spaces tend to be places like shopping malls. The market doesn’t do that—markets are a nice shortcut to someplace with a healthy, egalitarian street life, like Amsterdam, while still being a bit exotic (like if downtown Wakanda looked like, say, Wabash St. in downtown Chicago). No excuse for not paving the road, though. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 24, 2018 18:41:52 GMT -5
I thought the same thing. You kind of leave with the impression that Wakanda is a technological metropolis with approximately a hundred people living in it and approximately the same number of people out on the borders keeping the facade of being poor farmers up. I wonder if part of this is because we have to assume that Wakanda is a nice place for ordinary randos and that it’s not just a playground for a bunch of vibranium-clad chiefs and royals. We have futuristic cities like Wakanda’s capital (sans maglevs…in most cases) today in places like the east side of Beijing and Doha, and they can be pretty incredibly alienating, making you hyper-aware of the inequality and level of oligarchy in such cities, and their public spaces tend to be places like shopping malls. The market doesn’t do that—markets are a nice shortcut to someplace with a healthy, egalitarian street life, like Amsterdam, while still being a bit exotic (like if downtown Wakanda looked like, say, Wabash St. in downtown Chicago). No excuse for not paving the road, though. Would we still have paved roads with widespread maglev transportation? Surely it’d be something more permeable, less designed for heavy traffic than we have now. |
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Post by Lone Locust of the Apocalypse on Feb 24, 2018 19:39:36 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I feel like they rushed the story. A whole movie centered around Killmonger's rise to power would have been amazing. The scenes from his arrival to Wakanda up to the final battle were easily the best in my opinion.
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Post by Crash Test Dumbass on Feb 24, 2018 21:24:50 GMT -5
I quite enjoyed it. The CGI on Klaw's missing arm was absolutely terrible, and the disappearing suits in the Chekov's Train sequence looked kind of dumb, but it was better than most Marvel movies if only for being fairly standalone (and not starring human cardboard cutout Benedict Cumberbatch). I would have liked to see more Wakanda, more political intrigue instead of punching, and more of... well, most of it, really -- I feel like we're never going to go back there now that we've gotten the token black movie out of the way?
About half of the audience left after the credits started rolling, and half of those remaining left after the first stinger, and I found myself thinking "have these people never seen, or even heard of, a Marvel movie before?" I know I just said it was a good standalone film, but aren't the two post-credits sequences kind of a Known Thing by now?
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 24, 2018 23:24:09 GMT -5
I quite enjoyed it. The CGI on Klaw's missing arm was absolutely terrible, and the disappearing suits in the Chekov's Train sequence looked kind of dumb, but it was better than most Marvel movies if only for being fairly standalone (and not starring human cardboard cutout Benedict Cumberbatch). I would have liked to see more Wakanda, more political intrigue instead of punching, and more of... well, most of it, really -- I feel like we're never going to go back there now that we've gotten the token black movie out of the way? About half of the audience left after the credits started rolling, and half of those remaining left after the first stinger, and I found myself thinking "have these people never seen, or even heard of, a Marvel movie before?" I know I just said it was a good standalone film, but aren't the two post-credits sequences kind of a Known Thing by now? There’s no way MarvelDisney passes up printing money with a sequel now. My main worry would be that they go the direction of a T’Challa world tour instead of staying put |
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Post by moimoi on Feb 25, 2018 10:17:28 GMT -5
I really liked that it wasn't so much of a superhero movie as it was a character piece. I could have been perfectly happy without the super-heroing parts and with more Wakanda travelogue, personal interaction, sibling goofiness, and New King Uncertainty. And definitely more M'Baku. Also, why so little Angela Bassett? She was perfect when we saw her. Also also it bothers me that his last name is Ross. Is he supposed to be related to Thaddeus Ross, or was it just a lazy day over in character-naming land? I was kind of hoping she'd show back up at the end, perhaps being the reason the gorilla guys changed their minds. I suspect there’s a deleted scene where she convinces the Jabari to fight and maybe not to isolate themselves. I hope we get more of her in the sequal, since we lost Forest Whitaker. |
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Post by sarapen on Feb 25, 2018 11:28:22 GMT -5
I just saw it last night. My takeaway is that it's politically important but artistically more of the same - and I say this as someone who's seen almost every Marvel movie in the theatre. It's enjoyable but divorced from its political impact - which is, admittedly, to divorce the movie from most of what it's about - then it's another Marvel punch-up. For me, the best parts were the the ones where things weren't exploding.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Feb 25, 2018 12:20:51 GMT -5
Superb Owl 🦉 This has turned into a weird segue, but wasn’t the marketplace literally just packed dust/dirt with the maglev tram going down the middle? Pretty sure the Wakandans have material that lets rainfall through which not turning to mush in the rain.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 25, 2018 15:39:00 GMT -5
Superb Owl 🦉 This has turned into a weird segue, but wasn’t the marketplace literally just packed dust/dirt with the maglev tram going down the middle? Pretty sure the Wakandans have material that lets rainfall through which not turning to mush in the rain. Truth be told, the aesthetics of the street market threw me off too, I just liked exploring the idea that they were on some cutting edge of biophiliac urban design. You’re right though, even if you took vehicle traffic out as a consideration, you’d almost certainly still have permeable concrete or something. |
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Post by sarapen on Feb 25, 2018 17:03:46 GMT -5
Apparently that one neighbourhood we saw was supposed to be the Wakandan capital's hipster district, but yeah the public transit in the movie is weird, as that one tweeter expanded upon in the linked article. Hyperloops and maglevs that go nowehere is where it's at, apparently. As he notes, "Perhaps this all makes sense though. Wakanda is still an absolute monarchy, and without democratic input its king is naturally going to choose exciting hyperloop and maglev projects over boring local and regional transport links." And speaking of that absolute monarchy thing: And a counter-proposal: |
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Feb 26, 2018 13:18:51 GMT -5
About half of the audience left after the credits started rolling, and half of those remaining left after the first stinger, and I found myself thinking "have these people never seen, or even heard of, a Marvel movie before?" I know I just said it was a good standalone film, but aren't the two post-credits sequences kind of a Known Thing by now? I, for one, had to pee super bad. |
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Post by sarapen on Feb 26, 2018 13:39:13 GMT -5
Been reading a bunch about the political context of the movie - pan-Africanism, negritude, Afro-futurism, etc. I was aware of some of this but only in a peripheral fashion as it didn't directly affect me. Anyway, the Atlantic had an interesting take - Killmonger is the black Magneto, as both were produced through deep trauma and both concluded that the solution was violent conquest of the world at large. Essentially the old world of inequality would be reproduced except with different people on top (i.e., the bad guy). I guess the movie is better than I initially thought as I'm still thinking about it days later. |
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Let's have people get their opinions on! 
I'll leave the spoilering to you. 
