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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Apr 13, 2019 19:26:52 GMT -5
I have no real issues with Luke, but it has always bugged the ever-living fuck out of me that Luke "became a Jedi" with, like, a weekend of training on Dagobah. Are you in-fucking-sane. He was there much longer, but the time differences between the two plots in ESB make even less sense than the ones in TLJ. No one cares because it's ESB, but it makes no sense and we should recognize that they were all snorting mountains of coke and didn't put a single thought into it in 1980. |
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Post by Ben Grimm on Apr 13, 2019 20:52:21 GMT -5
(Also, the parts of this movie I -and others- thought were a bit too long upon first viewing, such as Canto Bight, really don't take up a lot of screen time. I think I love this one even more now.) I was expecting the Canto Bight stuff to drag on rewatch, but I thought it was fine. The fleet stuff dragged a bit on rewatch, though, more than it did in the theater, I thought. |
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Apr 13, 2019 21:02:21 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be very good if Episode IX got deep into confirming Bigger Luke lore?
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Post by WKRP Jimmy Drop on Apr 13, 2019 22:15:24 GMT -5
I have no real issues with Luke, but it has always bugged the ever-living fuck out of me that Luke "became a Jedi" with, like, a weekend of training on Dagobah. Are you in-fucking-sane. He was there much longer, but the time differences between the two plots in ESB make even less sense than the ones in TLJ. No one cares because it's ESB, but it makes no sense and we should recognize that they were all snorting mountains of coke and didn't put a single thought into it in 1980. The point is that it's a weekend of training compared to the t wenty or more years it's taken every other Jedi before him. Especially considering the training begins a lot younger, for (most likely) any number of reasons. It's horseshit. I mean, if they set it up just as "he's learning to use these powers he's just discovered", ok, fair enough. But they don't. ROTJ refers to him as a Jedi. Yeah that's one year later, IIRC. STILL NOT A JEDI, just a strongly Force-sensitive dude with some training. And how much training did he actually get to do in that time, still actively involved in fighting with the Rebel Alliance? Probably not a hell of a lot. Look I told you it bugged the ever-living fuck out of me. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 22:25:46 GMT -5
He was there much longer, but the time differences between the two plots in ESB make even less sense than the ones in TLJ. No one cares because it's ESB, but it makes no sense and we should recognize that they were all snorting mountains of coke and didn't put a single thought into it in 1980. The point is that it's a weekend of training compared to the t wenty or more years it's taken every other Jedi before him. Especially considering the training begins a lot younger, for (most likely) any number of reasons. It's horseshit. I mean, if they set it up just as "he's learning to use these powers he's just discovered", ok, fair enough. But they don't. ROTJ refers to him as a Jedi. Yeah that's one year later, IIRC. STILL NOT A JEDI, just a strongly Force-sensitive dude with some training. And how much training did he actually get to do in that time, still actively involved in fighting with the Rebel Alliance? Probably not a hell of a lot. Look I told you it bugged the ever-living fuck out of me. Okay, look. When Han said the Falcon's hyperdrive was out and so they'd have to reach Lando (and Bespin) with sublight engines their backup hyperdrive, which was 1/20th the speed, we're talking WEEKS time that, because it's a movie, they jumped forward. (Approximately two weeks, perhaps.) Weeks is still less than years, yes. But since all of the Skywalkers from Anakin on seem to be stronger in The Force somehow, he got a good start to his training. And then from ESB to ROTJ it's something between 1 and 3 years, I forget which. So Luke's training was escalated because he was the only one around. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 1:35:06 GMT -5
So I've been rewatching The Last Jedi today, and a very important point to add toward Ep9: In Luke's story about how he failed Ben/Kylo, he specifically referred to him as having "that strong Skywalker blood". Just confirmation of that. (Also, the parts of this movie I -and others- thought were a bit too long upon first viewing, such as Canto Bight, really don't take up a lot of screen time. I think I love this one even more now.) Since I only watched The Last Jedi once before, a couple of other questions answered by my rewatch: REY took the Jedi Texts with her when she left Ach-To! I thought Luke had put them on the Falcon before, but then in his scene with Yoda and the sacred tree, he was terrified that the texts would burn. But just after she leaves the planet, Rey is shown closing the same drawer that, at the end, Finn pulls the blanket out of to cover Rose, and the texts are there! ALSO - Luke says "Noone is ever really gone" to Leia before confronting Kylo Ren! ALSO ALSO - Rey has the two halves of her broken lightsaber at the end too, so yes, she could repair it by the next film. |
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Post by Nudeviking on Apr 14, 2019 2:32:03 GMT -5
The point is that it's a weekend of training compared to the t wenty or more years it's taken every other Jedi before him. Especially considering the training begins a lot younger, for (most likely) any number of reasons. It's horseshit. I mean, if they set it up just as "he's learning to use these powers he's just discovered", ok, fair enough. But they don't. ROTJ refers to him as a Jedi. Yeah that's one year later, IIRC. STILL NOT A JEDI, just a strongly Force-sensitive dude with some training. And how much training did he actually get to do in that time, still actively involved in fighting with the Rebel Alliance? Probably not a hell of a lot. Look I told you it bugged the ever-living fuck out of me. Okay, look. When Han said the Falcon's hyperdrive was out and so they'd have to reach Lando (and Bespin) with sublight engines their backup hyperdrive, which was 1/20th the speed, we're talking WEEKS time that, because it's a movie, they jumped forward. (Approximately two weeks, perhaps.) Weeks is still less than years, yes. But since all of the Skywalkers from Anakin on seem to be stronger in The Force somehow, he got a good start to his training. And then from ESB to ROTJ it's something between 1 and 3 years, I forget which. So Luke's training was escalated because he was the only one around. I'm pretty sure it's a year between the two in the current canon, which is enough time for Luke to get good at the Force I suppose if that's all he's really doing. I don't know what Luke canonically gets up to between Empire and Jedi now but back when Shadows of the Empire was a thing that counted he just built a new lightsaber and was practicing Jedi shit on Tattooine while his buddies hatched a rescue plan to save Han Solo. |
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Post by WKRP Jimmy Drop on Apr 14, 2019 12:48:16 GMT -5
The point is that it's a weekend of training compared to the t wenty or more years it's taken every other Jedi before him. Especially considering the training begins a lot younger, for (most likely) any number of reasons. It's horseshit. I mean, if they set it up just as "he's learning to use these powers he's just discovered", ok, fair enough. But they don't. ROTJ refers to him as a Jedi. Yeah that's one year later, IIRC. STILL NOT A JEDI, just a strongly Force-sensitive dude with some training. And how much training did he actually get to do in that time, still actively involved in fighting with the Rebel Alliance? Probably not a hell of a lot. Look I told you it bugged the ever-living fuck out of me. Okay, look. When Han said the Falcon's hyperdrive was out and so they'd have to reach Lando (and Bespin) with sublight engines their backup hyperdrive, which was 1/20th the speed, we're talking WEEKS time that, because it's a movie, they jumped forward. (Approximately two weeks, perhaps.) Weeks is still less than years, yes. But since all of the Skywalkers from Anakin on seem to be stronger in The Force somehow, he got a good start to his training. And then from ESB to ROTJ it's something between 1 and 3 years, I forget which. So Luke's training was escalated because he was the only one around. You guys are approaching this like I can be convinced/assured it can make sense, and...that is not going to happen. Six months of training on Dagobah + one year of autodiadactic training (which are the timeframes I keep finding) is never going to be equal to 20 years of training with experienced Jedi and/or Jedi Masters. Sure, he'll be more powerful in the Force than anyone else - because everyone else is dead. And by ROTJ, he's not an actual Jedi by the standards of the Jedi Order any more than people who play shitloads of Call of Duty are actual soldiers. It's a plot hole, and it's irritated the ever-living fuck out of me for actual decades. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 18:11:29 GMT -5
Here's my theory:   |
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Apr 18, 2019 16:51:23 GMT -5
Rey is a sex-flipped Anakin clone pass it on
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Post by Hawkguy on Apr 18, 2019 21:54:32 GMT -5
I outright loved Last Jedi, it really is what I think is the best Star Wars film because Johnson went in such a drastic change of direction. Mostly in how he dealt with the characters of Rey and Kylo Ren. If they do walk back Rey's parents or Kylo, this movie is just a waste of time to me. I hope I'm wrong, but everything seems to be pointing to retcon city. i don't mind the "Rey is no-one special" "reveal" , and I really like Luke as a cranky bitter old hermit. But I cannot stress how strongly I'm against a Kylo Ren redemption arc*, I found most of the interactions between Rey and Kylo borderline repulsive, and Johnson pretty much just straight-up assassinated Poe Dameron's character. That's not even including how the whole casino part threw off the pacing, and how ridiculously over-the-top Hux was, I was kinda fearful that Gleeson was going to pop a blood vessel in his eye. And I could roll my eyes and more or less ignore those bits, if not for the Dameron issue, and Johnson clearly shipping Rey and Kylo. Just - gross. No. *Kylo Ren redemption would not be earned in any way, shape, or form, unless he spends the entire movie striving towards that goal & even then I would be a hard sell. I also never bought Vader's "redemption", just btw. last Jedi made it pretty clear Kylo was irredeemable also so we really didn’t know THAT much about Poe since he really wasn’t in that much of tfa |
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Post by WKRP Jimmy Drop on Apr 19, 2019 10:47:15 GMT -5
i don't mind the "Rey is no-one special" "reveal" , and I really like Luke as a cranky bitter old hermit. But I cannot stress how strongly I'm against a Kylo Ren redemption arc*, I found most of the interactions between Rey and Kylo borderline repulsive, and Johnson pretty much just straight-up assassinated Poe Dameron's character. That's not even including how the whole casino part threw off the pacing, and how ridiculously over-the-top Hux was, I was kinda fearful that Gleeson was going to pop a blood vessel in his eye. And I could roll my eyes and more or less ignore those bits, if not for the Dameron issue, and Johnson clearly shipping Rey and Kylo. Just - gross. No. *Kylo Ren redemption would not be earned in any way, shape, or form, unless he spends the entire movie striving towards that goal & even then I would be a hard sell. I also never bought Vader's "redemption", just btw. last Jedi made it pretty clear Kylo was irredeemable also so we really didn’t know THAT much about Poe since he really wasn’t in that much of tfa Empire Strikes Back made it pretty clear that Vader was irredeemable.
No, we didn't know that much about Poe, personally, but you don't get anywhere in a military organization by being insubordinate to the point he was to Holdo. So I feel like we can infer that he might be a little wild-cardy, but he's not openly mutinous.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Apr 19, 2019 13:47:14 GMT -5
last Jedi made it pretty clear Kylo was irredeemable also so we really didn’t know THAT much about Poe since he really wasn’t in that much of tfa Empire Strikes Back made it pretty clear that Vader was irredeemable.
No, we didn't know that much about Poe, personally, but you don't get anywhere in a military organization by being insubordinate to the point he was to Holdo. So I feel like we can infer that he might be a little wild-cardy, but he's not openly mutinous.
I mean, you don’t usually get anywhere by being a raw recruit who steals a multi-million credit spacecraft to go AWOL and hang out with a swamp guru either. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 17:07:48 GMT -5
BTW, I loved how Hux got even more insane and power-hungry in TLJ. The scene where he finds Snoke dead and Kylo on the ground, and starts reaching for his blaster...then stops as soon as Kylo wakes up...such a great scene!
"The Supreme Leader is DEAD!"
*chokes* "Long...live...the Supreme Leader..."
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Post by Hawkguy on Apr 23, 2019 9:49:39 GMT -5
last Jedi made it pretty clear Kylo was irredeemable also so we really didn’t know THAT much about Poe since he really wasn’t in that much of tfa Empire Strikes Back made it pretty clear that Vader was irredeemable.
... no it didn't. And even if it could've been interpreted that way that would been just a way of looking at it. Kylo's irredeemablity wasnt even subtext. It was THE textual reading of the ending of TLJ, coming from Luke, Leia and rey. |
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Post by WKRP Jimmy Drop on Apr 23, 2019 13:52:10 GMT -5
Empire Strikes Back made it pretty clear that Vader was irredeemable.
... no it didn't. And even if it could've been interpreted that way that would been just a way of looking at it. Kylo's irredeemablity wasnt even subtext. It was THE textual reading of the ending of TLJ, coming from Luke, Leia and rey. ...crushing the Rebels on Hoth, sending a ton of bounty hunters out for Han, taking over Cloud City, threatening to leave an occupying force if Lando didn't hand over Han & Leia, laying a trap for Luke, torturing Han, putting him in carbonite, and giving him to Boba Fett implied that there was a chance of redemption for Vader? Or is it that apparently finding out Vader was Luke's father instantly meant he could be redeemable? This has been my issue all along, because that's utter horseshit - being a parent doesn't automatically mean you're worth saving, and keeping the Emperor from killing his child doesn't redeem Vader's years of brutally subjugating the galaxy. Luke, Leia, and Rey can textually say all they want about Kylo's irredeemability, and of course they believe it - but screenwriters frequently aren't honest with the viewership, because there's a lot to gain by not being 100% forthcoming about future story arcs. So yeah, while I'd like to take it at face value that of course Kylo isn't redeemable, because I dislike him extremely for any number of reasons, there are definite meta reasons to not accept it as, y'know, solid truth. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 17:23:01 GMT -5
He did murder younglings.
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Post by ganews on Apr 23, 2019 20:56:44 GMT -5
Perhaps the prospect of redeemability for the Kylo Ren character is related to Adam Driver being the only person putting on a decent acting performance with this dialogue.
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Post by Hachiman on Apr 23, 2019 21:23:44 GMT -5
He did murder younglings. Only like 6 or so. Plus there was the spousal abuse. Can't forget that. On the other hand, he was very open-handed with promotions... |
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Post by Nudeviking on Apr 28, 2019 19:30:08 GMT -5
He did murder younglings. Only like 6 or so. Plus there was the spousal abuse. Can't forget that. On the other hand, he was very open-handed with promotions... He murdered an unknown number of Sandyounglings too. |
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Post by Hachiman on Apr 29, 2019 4:54:13 GMT -5
Only like 6 or so. Plus there was the spousal abuse. Can't forget that. On the other hand, he was very open-handed with promotions... He murdered an unknown number of Sandyounglings too. They movies act like that was ok, though. They were animals. So he slaughtered them like animals. |
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Post by Nudeviking on Apr 29, 2019 6:34:35 GMT -5
He murdered an unknown number of Sandyounglings too. They movies act like that was ok, though. They were animals. So he slaughtered them like animals. Did the movie act like it was okay? I remember Padme kind of making a “Yo WTF?” face about it and then trying to rationalize what he’d done. |
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Post by chalkdevil 😈 on Apr 29, 2019 13:41:04 GMT -5
Rey is a sex-flipped Anakin clone pass it on This seems entirely too probable. It allows them to retcon Rey's parentage in Last Jedi, or at least keep what Kylo said "true" (e.g. the people that raised her are junkers who run across her as a baby in maybe some sort of wrecked First Order science lab, take her on-board but then abandon her once her force powers start acting up), but allows her to be tied into the Skywalker family without having to do the more obvious, Luke's secret, unknown daughter route. Also, it also the "Rey is a Mary Sue" crowd to accept Rey, because she is a Skywalker like they want, but also they can just say she's powerful because she inherited her powers from a man. It's a big win plot twist for Disney to appease the horrible, vocal Star Wars nerds. And you get to have the weird incest stuff with the Kylo/Rey interactions, that's really become a hallmark of the franchise. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 13:50:02 GMT -5
They movies act like that was ok, though. They were animals. So he slaughtered them like animals. Did the movie act like it was okay? I remember Padme kind of making a “Yo WTF?” face about it and then trying to rationalize what he’d done. It definitely didn't. The line "women and children too" shows that it was over the line, he murdered innocents. Also, as the scene plays the background music actually strikes a few chords of Vader's theme, signaling that slaughtering the sand people was really his start down the path of the dark side. The movie also didn't say they were animals, Anakin says he slaughtered them like they were animals. Take the context of the women and children line, it is clear that they don't treat the sand people as animals, but that Anakin had such a rage in him that he willingly slaughtered them without any respect towards them as a person. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on May 12, 2019 20:54:21 GMT -5
Jumping in a bit late, sorry.
But count me among the people kind of sad that they may be undoing some of the great stuff that TLJ did. I loved what that story did with both Rey and Kylo. With Rey, I loved that she *wasn't* a Skywalker. That her parents were just average people. With Kylo, I loved that the film allowed him to kill the master and take control, so that all the choices being made afterwards were truly his. I thought that was genuinely thrilling. I was very excited to see what the next movie would bring from him.
But, if this movie is going to make Rey some long lost Jedi kid, and say Kylo Ren is being controlled by someone else.... Blech.
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Post by Ben Grimm on May 13, 2019 8:47:26 GMT -5
Jumping in a bit late, sorry. But count me among the people kind of sad that they may be undoing some of the great stuff that TLJ did. I loved what that story did with both Rey and Kylo. With Rey, I loved that she *wasn't* a Skywalker. That her parents were just average people. With Kylo, I loved that the film allowed him to kill the master and take control, so that all the choices being made afterwards were truly his. I thought that was genuinely thrilling. I was very excited to see what the next movie would bring from him. But, if this movie is going to make Rey some long lost Jedi kid, and say Kylo Ren is being controlled by someone else.... Blech. I'm still guessing that they're going to split the difference, that Rey was a member of Luke's Jedi Academy, and that Kylo knew her already (either she was the one student Luke was able to save and he left her on Jakku, or Kylo couldn't bring himself to kill her and he left her on Jakku), but that she wasn't a Skywalker. There were hints of that in TFA, and they could tie it in without completely undermining TLJ is she still wasn't the child of anyone "Special." |
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Post by Crash Test Dumbass on May 13, 2019 8:52:37 GMT -5
Jumping in a bit late, sorry. But count me among the people kind of sad that they may be undoing some of the great stuff that TLJ did. I loved what that story did with both Rey and Kylo. With Rey, I loved that she *wasn't* a Skywalker. That her parents were just average people. With Kylo, I loved that the film allowed him to kill the master and take control, so that all the choices being made afterwards were truly his. I thought that was genuinely thrilling. I was very excited to see what the next movie would bring from him. But, if this movie is going to make Rey some long lost Jedi kid, and say Kylo Ren is being controlled by someone else.... Blech. I'm still guessing that they're going to split the difference, that Rey was a member of Luke's Jedi Academy, and that Kylo knew her already (either she was the one student Luke was able to save and he left her on Jakku, or Kylo couldn't bring himself to kill her and he left her on Jakku), but that she wasn't a Skywalker. There were hints of that in TFA, and they could tie it in without completely undermining TLJ is she still wasn't the child of anyone "Special." Wasn't she like 9 when they left her on Jakku? If they were going to mindwipe her time at the Academy, couldn't they also have mindwiped the trauma of her 'parents' leaving? Is she Darth Revan? |
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Post by Ben Grimm on May 13, 2019 8:55:59 GMT -5
I'm still guessing that they're going to split the difference, that Rey was a member of Luke's Jedi Academy, and that Kylo knew her already (either she was the one student Luke was able to save and he left her on Jakku, or Kylo couldn't bring himself to kill her and he left her on Jakku), but that she wasn't a Skywalker. There were hints of that in TFA, and they could tie it in without completely undermining TLJ is she still wasn't the child of anyone "Special." Wasn't she like 9 when they left her on Jakku? If they were going to mindwipe her time at the Academy, couldn't they also have mindwiped the trauma of her 'parents' leaving? Is she Darth Revan?I suspect she was at most like 5, which may explain why she doesn't remember any of it clearly - they didn't wipe her memory, it's just hard to hold onto those memories unless they're sufficiently important. |
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Post by Hachiman on May 13, 2019 20:28:24 GMT -5
Jumping in a bit late, sorry. But count me among the people kind of sad that they may be undoing some of the great stuff that TLJ did. I loved what that story did with both Rey and Kylo. With Rey, I loved that she *wasn't* a Skywalker. That her parents were just average people. With Kylo, I loved that the film allowed him to kill the master and take control, so that all the choices being made afterwards were truly his. I thought that was genuinely thrilling. I was very excited to see what the next movie would bring from him. But, if this movie is going to make Rey some long lost Jedi kid, and say Kylo Ren is being controlled by someone else.... Blech. My beef with putting the emphasis on the Skywalker family is that it totally ignores that the Jedi order took in force-sensitive kids from all over the galaxy and didn't allow them to marry. Since the order was able to continue for so long, it stands to reason that force-sensitive people are a randomly occurring thing, regardless of lineage. So it really doesn't need to have some amazing familial explanation at all. We didn't care about any of the other parents of Jedi so why should we care about Rey's? It felt like a gigantic red herring all the way back to Episode 7. |
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Post by chalkdevil 😈 on Aug 26, 2019 9:35:58 GMT -5
Huh.
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