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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 12, 2021 0:14:23 GMT -5
I, too, am wondering if they could pull off a TNG reboot film while they are running an ST: Picard series. I am strongly anti-reboot, and I particularly hate the way reboots and prequels have taken over Star Trek, which should inherently be forward-looking. However, I am also growing weary of how much of new Trek is set in the TOS era, and so rebooting a later series almost appeals to me.
I mean, in terms of being anti-reboot, I'd be pretty down with Strange New Worlds But Set In The 24th Century Rather Than Constantly Harking Back To TOS. The Enterprise can't be the only 24th century ship out there having whacky, horny adventures and suchlike? With three shows set in the TNG timeline it's still the most "open" period of the show where there's plenty to discover but not be plagued by "wait, why have we never heard of [ALIEN!] when they were such a big deal in [REBOOT SHOW!] (the Xindi are the most conspicuous example of this, although Discovery's "... and we shall never speak of this again!" deserves special mention). They already have a pre-established framework where basically everyone knows how it works and it means they don't have to be constantly hamstrung by continuity. And that also means that if you only have a ten-episode season you don't have to waste half of it with setup. Have a ship go explore the Beta quadrant. Have a short-range Voyager-esque vessel doing missions every week. Have a medical ship that focuses on the "life" part of "new life and new civilizations". Invent an intergalactic drive and explore the Andromeda galaxy. Boldly fucking go somewhere! It's just not that hard.
I wish DSC had simply cast Anson Mount as the new captain of the Discovery. He made such a great Trek captain. Instead they cast him as Pike, and now all the fans want to watch him in yet another prequel show.
Honestly, ST: Picard is set in a great timeline. They could have done anything there. DS9 left the universe in a time of change. Anything could have happened! Instead they basically did "what if androids want to kill humanity?", which is already a tired concept. TOS had episodes about computers taking over and trying to kill people. TOS also had episodes about evil androids who try to kill people. There are so many newer, more interesting concepts in sci-fi now.
Ugh, the more I think about that Picard show the more disappointed I feel. I wonder if there's any chance they can make a decent season 2?
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Post by sarapen on Mar 13, 2021 18:33:28 GMT -5
So I still haven't seen Picard and am stuck halfway through season 2 of Discovery - I'm not really liking it and I'm basically forcing myself to watch it because it's Star Trek and I feel kind of obligated to the younger me who saw every episode of Trek from TNG to Enterprise (also I don't think I'll ever watch Nemesis). I did like Lower Decks, at least.
Anyway, it feels like between Enterprise and Discovery, Star Trek as an institution kind of forgot how to write Star Trek stories. I'm not the type to ever keep up on behind the scenes stuff so I don't know what, institutionally, caused Star Trek to forget what it was good at, but if Star Trek was a political party or a corporation I would say that a lot of the old-timers aren't around anymore and the present generation doesn't really understand the boring organizational and structural stuff that produced the results they want to recreate.
And as a tangent, anyone remember that Idris Elba's character in Star Trek Beyond fought against the Xindi? I wonder how that worked, since I thought Enterprise was the only ship that was taking the fight to the whatever region of space. Maybe there were border actions or something?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 13, 2021 21:32:38 GMT -5
And as a tangent, anyone remember that Idris Elba's character in Star Trek Beyond fought against the Xindi? I wonder how that worked, since I thought Enterprise was the only ship that was taking the fight to the whatever region of space. Maybe there were border actions or something?
Given that I just finished S3 of ENT, I can say Idris Elba's character most definitely had to have been on the Enterprise. The only ship battling the Xindi was the Enterprise. Earth didn't even have a 2nd ship at that time. The Columbia was still being completed, sitting in Dry Dock. The Xindi don't have a home planet, or any territory at all. Their planet was blown to bits 100+ years before S3 starts. They exist only in a diaspora, spread across multiple planets in the Delphic Expanse. And the Delphic Expanse is 6 weeks from Earth at Warp 5, so there is definitely not any "border action" going on. The only time the Xindi approach Earth is with their weapons, and the only MACO action involved is with the 3 stationed on Degra's ship with Archer in the S3 finale. The episode directly states that there are no other Earth ships in the vicinity.
The only other ship that helped the Enterprise was Shran's Andorian ship, and that was minimal help in 2 episodes.
The MACOs only ever "battled" the Xindi 3 times, by my count. (As in actual in-person combat, not ship-to-ship.) First, when the Enterprise was boarded in "Rajiin", wherein the Xindi completely dominated the MACOs and crew with far superior weapons. Then there is the MACO mission in "Countdown", which had 4 named (and credited) MACOs go to the Xindi Reptillian ship to retrieve Sato. Finally, there is the crew of 3 MACOs that help Archer get to the Xindi weapon to disable it in the finale "Zero Hour".
And I just double checked Memory Alpha for this. (Because I didn't remember the MACOs names.) The MACOs only directly interacted with the Xindi those three times. If Elba's character is referring to in-person combat, this could only have happened in "Rajiin". (Which, btw, is a terrible episode.)
Unless, of course, he was referring to being on the ship when the Xindi ships nearly obliterated the Enterprise in "Azati Prime", or the ship battles in "The Forgotten" and "The Council". That was all ship-to-ship combat. If he wants to count this, I'll give it to him, even though it was Reed's team doing the battling here.
Edited, because I forgot about this:
They seem to understand it in the abstract, because occasionally characters give a big speech wherein they extol the virtues of the Federation. Like in the silly S1 finale of ST: DSC. And DSC had a couple episodes that actually feel like Star Trek. I was very hopeful that the 3rd season of DSC would have brought this feel back, but it really didn't.
ST: PIC felt a bit more like Star Trek, but it still has several baffling elements of it that make me feel like the people writing it don't really understand the universe of Trek.
The Behind-the-Scenes at ENT was basically Braga/Berman writing all of S1-2, and then a lot of S3. And those two were "old timers" who definitely should have understood Trek, but somehow they made Trek, but really boring. ST: DSC behind-the-scenes is a mess of revolving showrunners and fighting between the writers and showrunner. Again, I thought this had all been resolved by S3, but it didn't seem like it turned out much better.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 13, 2021 22:37:48 GMT -5
I have to admit I’m happy they went the route of inventing new post-Romulan stuff rather than heading into DS9-world. In some ways I prefer what they did with Picard—basically a TUC-level disaster in a political rival, but the Federation declines to aid and shape a new spatio-political era—to have I’ve heard they did with the novels (which was evidently a worse parade of misery for the Alpha Q. as a whole than the show), and I’m not sure the DS9 writers reunion idea for their hypothetical season eight would work well either—I think it would end up pretty PIC-ish. (And I liked the post-Romulan and ex-Borg worldbuilding a fair amount, the android stuff was mostly the weak point for me as well, especially as I had trouble even keeping track of what was going on there, and I’m frankly still confused.)
I haven't read any of the novels, so I have no idea if this was better.
And the ex-Borg worldbuilding was definitely interesting. I'm just disappointed it all amounted to nothing. The post-Romulan stuff was okay, but I am still completely baffled that the Federation refused to help because a handful of worlds threatened to defect? Let them! They clearly don't believe in Federation ideals.
The Romulans HELPED us in the Dominion War that would have been, what, 10-20 years ago? And we can't help mount a rescue effort? WTF?
Meh, I'm still baffled as to why the Romulans even needed help, or why their multi-planet Empire collapsed because they lost one system. They had a long time to plan for this. YEARS. They have an entire fleet of ships. ST:Picard even confirmed that they had YEARS advance notice. Or why the Federation planets which DIDN'T object to helping them didn't offer up their own ships to help, outside of the Federation framework. Why was this somehow only Picard who wanted to help? None of this makes a lick of sense.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2021 1:42:15 GMT -5
I'm now watching S4 of ST:ENT I saw about half of S3 in original run, and I believe I saw even less of S4. I hadn't seen any of the first handful of episodes before now.
E1-2 are freaking ridiculous on nearly all levels. However, as I said previously, I commend Manny Coto for using Berman's stupid S3 cliffhanger ending to permanently end the silly Temporal Cold War story in these very first 2 episodes of S4. And by golly, he made the silliest possible episodes to match how silly that Temporal Cold War was.
E3, "Home", is a decent episode.
E4-6 are a trilogy of episodes guest starring Brent Spiner playing some Soong ancestor, trying to stop some "augments". I just finished these. They are awful. Really bad. I thought this season was supposed to be better than S3?
Then again, the first 6 episodes of S3 feature "Extinction", "Rajiin" and "Exile", which are all incredibly bad, and among the worst I have seen in all of ST:ENT. And S3's first 6 episodes also includes "Impulse" which is nothing more than a zombie attack episode.
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Post by sarapen on Mar 14, 2021 14:09:19 GMT -5
And as a tangent, anyone remember that Idris Elba's character in Star Trek Beyond fought against the Xindi? I wonder how that worked, since I thought Enterprise was the only ship that was taking the fight to the whatever region of space. Maybe there were border actions or something?
Given that I just finished S3 of ENT, I can say Idris Elba's character most definitely had to have been on the Enterprise. The only ship battling the Xindi was the Enterprise. Earth didn't even have a 2nd ship at that time. The Columbia was still being completed, sitting in Dry Dock. The Xindi don't have a home planet, or any territory at all. Their planet was blown to bits 100+ years before S3 starts. They exist only in a diaspora, spread across multiple planets in the Delphic Expanse. And the Delphic Expanse is 6 weeks from Earth at Warp 5, so there is definitely not any "border action" going on. The only time the Xindi approach Earth is with their weapons, and the only MACO action involved is with the 3 stationed on Degra's ship with Archer in the S3 finale. The episode directly states that there are no other Earth ships in the vicinity.
The only other ship that helped the Enterprise was Shran's Andorian ship, and that was minimal help in 2 episodes.
The MACOs only ever "battled" the Xindi 3 times, by my count. (As in actual in-person combat, not ship-to-ship.) First, when the Enterprise was boarded in "Rajiin", wherein the Xindi completely dominated the MACOs and crew with far superior weapons. Then there is the MACO mission in "Countdown", which had 4 named (and credited) MACOs go to the Xindi Reptillian ship to retrieve Sato. Finally, there is the crew of 3 MACOs that help Archer get to the Xindi weapon to disable it in the finale "Zero Hour".
And I just double checked Memory Alpha for this. (Because I didn't remember the MACOs names.) The MACOs only directly interacted with the Xindi those three times. If Elba's character is referring to in-person combat, this could only have happened in "Rajiin". (Which, btw, is a terrible episode.)
Unless, of course, he was referring to being on the ship when the Xindi ships nearly obliterated the Enterprise in "Azati Prime", or the ship battles in "The Forgotten" and "The Council". That was all ship-to-ship combat. If he wants to count this, I'll give it to him, even though it was Reed's team doing the battling here.
Edited, because I forgot about this:
They seem to understand it in the abstract, because occasionally characters give a big speech wherein they extol the virtues of the Federation. Like in the silly S1 finale of ST: DSC. And DSC had a couple episodes that actually feel like Star Trek. I was very hopeful that the 3rd season of DSC would have brought this feel back, but it really didn't.
ST: PIC felt a bit more like Star Trek, but it still has several baffling elements of it that make me feel like the people writing it don't really understand the universe of Trek.
The Behind-the-Scenes at ENT was basically Braga/Berman writing all of S1-2, and then a lot of S3. And those two were "old timers" who definitely should have understood Trek, but somehow they made Trek, but really boring. ST: DSC behind-the-scenes is a mess of revolving showrunners and fighting between the writers and showrunner. Again, I thought this had all been resolved by S3, but it didn't seem like it turned out much better.
I feel like they implied Idris Elba had his own ship during the Xindi war, but it's been a while since I've seen it. Ah what the hell, I'll watch it again and report back. Also, when I was talking about behind the scenes stuff I meant more than simply the showrunner but other organizational stuff. Like, didn't TOS and TNG have a pipeline of established sci-fi authors to write one-off episodes? And I know TNG accepted scripts that random jerks sent in. Do they still do that in the modern series? I assume not, but it did get fresh voices into the older shows. |
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Post by sarapen on Mar 14, 2021 17:05:43 GMT -5
Okay, rewatched Star Trek Beyond. It seems I was mistaken and conflated two things about Idris Elba's character. First, he was a MACO and he mentions losing millions in the Xindi and Romulan Wars, but he doesn't say he fought directly against the Xindi.
However, I will now partake in every Trekkie's favourite pastime and point out a couple of continuity errors in the movie. The first is that Idris Elba's ship is mentioned by Scotty as being the first Earth ship capable of warp 4 - which obviously can't be true because Scott Bakula's Enterprise was supposed to be a warp 5 ship. Also, the Idris Elba villain says to Uhura, "The world I was born in was different from yours. We knew pain, we knew terror. It made us strong." This also can't be true because from what we see of Captain Archer's flashback to his childhood, it looked like a pretty peaceful world kept safe from foreign aggression by the Vulcans.
Anyway, I forgot how neat it was to see the big sci-fi crap you can't get on a TV budget, namely the Yorktown star base being whatever you call the kind of space habitat between a Dyson sphere and a Ringworld. Also weird gravity crap and gleaming cities held together by force fields, that's something you can't really get on TV.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 14, 2021 17:17:38 GMT -5
The first is that Idris Elba's ship is mentioned by Scotty as being the first Earth ship capable of warp 4 - which obviously can't be true because Scott Bakula's Enterprise was supposed to be a warp 5 ship. My headcanon for this was that it predated the NX-01 but was retroactively assigned an NCC- number once that program was declared a success and a bunch of older ships got brought into Starfleet. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 15, 2021 0:56:54 GMT -5
The first is that Idris Elba's ship is mentioned by Scotty as being the first Earth ship capable of warp 4 - which obviously can't be true because Scott Bakula's Enterprise was supposed to be a warp 5 ship. My headcanon for this was that it predated the NX-01 but was retroactively assigned an NCC- number once that program was declared a success and a bunch of older ships got brought into Starfleet. It is hard to work this into ENT continuity since we do actually know a lot about this time period. They'd have to claim it was somehow launched after the Warp 3 ship NX-Delta in 2145, but before the NX-01 in 2150, which, as you say, is a Warp 5 ship.
The Memory Alpha wiki tries to work this out. But the Dedication plaque of the ship says it launched in 2255, which is 100 years later than the Warp 5 NX-01, and this date would likely be after the ship actually crashed on the planet seen in ST: Beyond.
The real explanation is that the film people aren't detail-oriented, and make their names, numbers and dates into cute references to other things, such as the "Franklin" being Justin Lin's dad's name (Frank Lin) and the registry number "326" was in honor of Leonard Nimoy's birthdate.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Mar 15, 2021 6:48:58 GMT -5
But what is your opinion of the extremely fake-looking rock-climbing jet boots scene from The Final Frontier?
As I've confessed on this board before, I've still not seen Star Trek V. For a long time I wasn't able to bring myself to watch it or Star Trek: Nemesis. I finally watched Nemesis in advance of ST: Picard airing. I hated it.
I thought IV and VI were kinda okay, but flawed. So, I can't imagine that I would like V. But I will get there. I'm finally watching all of ST: ENT this year. And I haven't watched ST: Lower Decks yet because I cancelled my CBS All Access subscription.
Going to try to get to all of this before the next Trek show comes out. And after that point, I will not try to be a completionist any longer. Mainly because I don't want to watch DSC S4. But also because the new animated show they've announced does not look appealing to me at all. And even though I liked Anson Mount as Pike in DSC, I am not sure I want to watch another prequel series.
This is the scene that I’m talking about. What is your opinion of it? |
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 15, 2021 7:19:29 GMT -5
Okay, rewatched Star Trek Beyond. It seems I was mistaken and conflated two things about Idris Elba's character. First, he was a MACO and he mentions losing millions in the Xindi and Romulan Wars, but he doesn't say he fought directly against the Xindi. However, I will now partake in every Trekkie's favourite pastime and point out a couple of continuity errors in the movie. The first is that Idris Elba's ship is mentioned by Scotty as being the first Earth ship capable of warp 4 - which obviously can't be true because Scott Bakula's Enterprise was supposed to be a warp 5 ship. Also, the Idris Elba villain says to Uhura, "The world I was born in was different from yours. We knew pain, we knew terror. It made us strong." This also can't be true because from what we see of Captain Archer's flashback to his childhood, it looked like a pretty peaceful world kept safe from foreign aggression by the Vulcans. Anyway, I forgot how neat it was to see the big sci-fi crap you can't get on a TV budget, namely the Yorktown star base being whatever you call the kind of space habitat between a Dyson sphere and a Ringworld. Also weird gravity crap and gleaming cities held together by force fields, that's something you can't really get on TV. Whenever I watch this movie I always end up thinking "man, Star Trek movies really know how to waste talent don't they?" Idris Elba is a great actor but he's given a vanishingly small amount to do here and is buried under so much latex it could be just about anyone. See also F Murray Abraham (wasted and make-up), Tom Hardy (simply wasted) and Malcolm McDowell (who's great but in the wrong film). |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 15, 2021 23:54:40 GMT -5
As I've confessed on this board before, I've still not seen Star Trek V. For a long time I wasn't able to bring myself to watch it or Star Trek: Nemesis. I finally watched Nemesis in advance of ST: Picard airing. I hated it.
This is the scene that I’m talking about. What is your opinion of it?
Hilariously bad. I thought it was funny when Kirk was turning around to speak to Spock, while free climbing El Capitan. But Spock's jet boots put it over the top. The best bit is when Spock turns over in mid-air and jets off to save Kirk. High quality movie making, there.
Though, perhaps the scene wants the audience to laugh? I'm not sure. I can't tell.
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Post by liebkartoffel on Mar 16, 2021 0:25:30 GMT -5
I read a "physics of Star Trek" book once that amusedly pointed out that, when falling from a great height, there really isn't much difference between having your momentum abruptly canceled by the ground itself or by a rocket boot-wearing Vulcan 6 inches above the ground. I'd say at the very least Spock managed to dislocate every joint in Kirk's legs, if he didn't shatter all of his bones.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Mar 16, 2021 5:42:19 GMT -5
This is the scene that I’m talking about. What is your opinion of it?
Hilariously bad. I thought it was funny when Kirk was turning around to speak to Spock, while free climbing El Capitan. But Spock's jet boots put it over the top. The best bit is when Spock turns over in mid-air and jets off to save Kirk. High quality movie making, there.
Though, perhaps the scene wants the audience to laugh? I'm not sure. I can't tell.
I do thing the scene is supposed to be funny, though I don't know how successful you call it if the laughs are still primarily unintentional. |
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Mar 16, 2021 6:37:43 GMT -5
This is the scene that I’m talking about. What is your opinion of it?
Hilariously bad. I thought it was funny when Kirk was turning around to speak to Spock, while free climbing El Capitan. But Spock's jet boots put it over the top. The best bit is when Spock turns over in mid-air and jets off to save Kirk. High quality movie making, there.
Though, perhaps the scene wants the audience to laugh? I'm not sure. I can't tell.
Yeah, it’s absurdly awful-looking. I think it’s definitely written as a humorous scene, although I think a lot of viewers probably end up laughing for reasons unintended by Shatner et. al. Honestly, it’s scenes like that which make me like V the best of the bad (by which I mean odd-numbered) TOS films. It’s bad, but it’s kind of entertainingly so a lot of the time, it’s not self-serious, and while it fails, it doesn’t really fail in relation to things that are already great. Like TMP had aspirations of being a visually spectacular masterpiece a la 2001 but it mostly just sucks and is incoherent, and III is a continuation of II but utterly pales in comparison. V is it’s own thing; it’s completely ridiculous, but hard not to be a little bit fond of, imo. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 16, 2021 11:22:23 GMT -5
Hilariously bad. I thought it was funny when Kirk was turning around to speak to Spock, while free climbing El Capitan. But Spock's jet boots put it over the top. The best bit is when Spock turns over in mid-air and jets off to save Kirk. High quality movie making, there.
Though, perhaps the scene wants the audience to laugh? I'm not sure. I can't tell.
Yeah, it’s absurdly awful-looking. I think it’s definitely written as a humorous scene, although I think a lot of viewers probably end up laughing for reasons unintended by Shatner et. al. Honestly, it’s scenes like that which make me like V the best of the bad (by which I mean odd-numbered) TOS films. It’s bad, but it’s kind of entertainingly so a lot of the time, it’s not self-serious, and while it fails, it doesn’t really fail in relation to things that are already great. Like TMP had aspirations of being a visually spectacular masterpiece a la 2001 but it mostly just sucks and is incoherent, and III is a continuation of II but utterly pales in comparison. V is it’s own thing; it’s completely ridiculous, but hard not to be a little bit fond of, imo. III > II |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 16, 2021 22:58:18 GMT -5
Yeah, it’s absurdly awful-looking. I think it’s definitely written as a humorous scene, although I think a lot of viewers probably end up laughing for reasons unintended by Shatner et. al. Honestly, it’s scenes like that which make me like V the best of the bad (by which I mean odd-numbered) TOS films. It’s bad, but it’s kind of entertainingly so a lot of the time, it’s not self-serious, and while it fails, it doesn’t really fail in relation to things that are already great. Like TMP had aspirations of being a visually spectacular masterpiece a la 2001 but it mostly just sucks and is incoherent, and III is a continuation of II but utterly pales in comparison. V is it’s own thing; it’s completely ridiculous, but hard not to be a little bit fond of, imo.
Yeah, I don't think I was laughing at the parts that I was supposed to be laughing at. The intentional jokes in the scene were not funny.
I plan on watching it after I complete ST: Enterprise. And you're right, at least it should be a different kind of bad than, say, TMP or Generations. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 17, 2021 4:49:50 GMT -5
Yeah, it’s absurdly awful-looking. I think it’s definitely written as a humorous scene, although I think a lot of viewers probably end up laughing for reasons unintended by Shatner et. al. Honestly, it’s scenes like that which make me like V the best of the bad (by which I mean odd-numbered) TOS films. It’s bad, but it’s kind of entertainingly so a lot of the time, it’s not self-serious, and while it fails, it doesn’t really fail in relation to things that are already great. Like TMP had aspirations of being a visually spectacular masterpiece a la 2001 but it mostly just sucks and is incoherent, and III is a continuation of II but utterly pales in comparison. V is it’s own thing; it’s completely ridiculous, but hard not to be a little bit fond of, imo.
Yeah, I don't think I was laughing at the parts that I was supposed to be laughing at. The intentional jokes in the scene were not funny.
I plan on watching it after I complete ST: Enterprise. And you're right, at least it should be a different kind of bad than, say, TMP or Generations. Ah it's mostly a fun movie. Cheap as shit, though. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 19, 2021 4:54:14 GMT -5
My ST:ENT rewatch continues. Though, this is honestly probably more of a simple "watch" than a rewatch. I don't remember seeing most of these S4 episodes. I only remembered seeing about half of S3.
One of the things I dislike about S4's structure is that with these mini-story arcs, you are sometimes stuck watching something terrible for several episodes in a row. Like, that Brent Spiner/Augments arc which was three episodes in a row. Ugh, it felt like that would never end.
Moving on
S4E7-9 are a trio of episodes about Vulcans not correctly following the teachings of Surak, and Archer and T'Pol finding the real writings of Surak. And also the Romulans are plotting to destabilize Vulcan. I can't decide whether I think the Romulan plot being a throwaway at the end is good or bad. Like, I am legitimately torn on whether this should have been a bigger part of the episodes, or not in them at all! Or whether the throwaway scene at the end was actually good or bad. I guess since the Romulan plot is a bigger part of later episodes, that it is okay to have the throwaway scene at the end here. Maybe?
I will say that I am amazed that a group of high ranking Vulcans let this Vulcan leader go completely off the rails and did nothing about it for, like, 2.75 episodes. Is it logical for them to stand around while their leader orders helpless people to be massacred? It felt weird. He rants like a madman about the problem for over 2 episodes, and none of them vocally express that he seems nuts.
These episodes were probably the first time that I've liked Ambassador Soval as a character. And I thought Graham's performance was much better in them than in earlier episodes.
I also really liked Trip in these episodes, making the executive decision to take the Enterprise into a potential shooting war between the Vulcans and Andorians, to try to diffuse the situation.
Overall, this Vulcan group of episodes was pretty good.
Episode 10 "Daedalus" is about the man who invented the transporter. This had the feel of TOS "The Ultimate Computer" in the way the guy talked about hitting his peak of success so early and not knowing what else to do. It also has a crazy plot wherein he tries to "rescue" his son from having his pattern lost in a previous transporter attempt. This was kind of a mediocre episode.
E11 is an episode in which the Organians are heartless monsters who sit around chit chatting while watching crew members die. And then Archer tells them they are heartless monsters, so they revive the crew members and leave. The Organians say they are looking for markers of advanced intelligence to decide which species they can make contact with, so they watch how species react to crew members contracting a virus... but I'm a bit confused as to what they would consider a success. They bring up several scenarios, and somehow all of them constitute failure. Species detect the virus and kill the crew members before they get back to the ship is a failure. But crew members discovering the cure and working to make it is also considered a failure because the Organian says it is waste of time and resources to find a cure after the patient has died. So, apparently, the only way to pass this test is to discover a new virus and formulate a cure in 6 hours. Huh?
Additionally, it is Phlox and T'Pol who discover the virus and formulate a cure. And neither of them are human. But the aliens say they are testing humans. It is all weird. I didn't like this episode.
Episodes 12-14 are where ST:ENT finally gets around to being about what it should have been about the whole time. This features the Enterprise crew trying to diplomatically resolve a dispute between Andorians and Tellarites. Meanwhile, the Romulans are sending a drone ship into the region to attack ships, while making the Romulan ship appear as one from another species, trying to set all the local alien species against each other. This does feel vaguely like something out of DS9 with the Founders, but whatever. It is nice to see the humans acting as mediators, trying to solve big disputes and bring disparate alien cultures together. I really wish this had been more of a focus of the show. Though, I am not sure I buy Archer as some great mediator. I did really like Jeffrey Combs in these episodes.
I am quickly approaching the end of ST:ENT. I am trying to decide if I want to re-watch the finale. It probably will just make me mad again. Maybe I'll stop at the penultimate episode instead.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 19, 2021 5:06:58 GMT -5
I am quickly approaching the end of ST:ENT. I am trying to decide if I want to re-watch the finale. It probably will just make me mad again. Maybe I'll stop at the penultimate episode instead.
You must. You must. You've come this far, suffer for us! Are you generally finding that the S4=best Enterprise rule is holding? You still seem fairly ambivalent despite a few upticks. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 19, 2021 6:12:58 GMT -5
I am quickly approaching the end of ST:ENT. I am trying to decide if I want to re-watch the finale. It probably will just make me mad again. Maybe I'll stop at the penultimate episode instead.
You must. You must. You've come this far, suffer for us!
Ugh, I do actually remember watching the series finale. It is so bad. I'm not sure I want to watch it again. Once was enough.
Yeah, I am feeling a bit more ambivalent about it than I expected to. People seem to think this is the best season, but I don't know. It has just as many pointless episodes as S3 did. But it lacks the narrative drive that S3 had.
On the other hand, the characters are all improved in S4. We don't have Angry Archer for 24 straight episodes, and that's nice. Archer actually seems able to identify a problem and then solve it, so that is an improvement. Trip and T'Pol aren't endlessly involved in creepy massage scenes. And definitely seeing Soval, Shran, and various other Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites is more fun than watching Xindi council meetings. I really hated everything about the design of the Xindi characters. It made them feel so cartoonish.
And I do really like the concepts in S4, of being shown some cultural development of Vulcan, and getting to know what is driving Andorians and Tellarites.
But that lack of narrative drive is a real problem for me. These mini-arcs aren't as satisfying as the unifying narrative of S3. It all feels a bit haphazard. Like, after the trauma of S3 and the disillusionment Archer is talking about in S4 "Home", maybe he should have approached the mission as one of *intentionally* trying out diplomacy, resolving disputes, trying to bring people together, and form a coalition. Seems like a natural follow up to what happened to them in S3. But, this stuff all seems to be happening independently (or as instigated by Romulans) and Archer is simply reacting to it.
Sigh, I know I complained about Archer's characterization in S3, too. But, he really is a big problem for the show. He's a weak character, and this is really bad to have in a Captain.
So far, "Babel One"/"United"/"The Aenar" are the best episodes of the season. But I wouldn't rank these above S3's "Azati Prime"/"Damage"/"The Forgotten". The S3 episodes are actually about the problems afflicting the ship and characters, the decisions our own characters are making, and have real ethical quandaries. The S4 episodes are about problems other aliens have and our characters trying to mediate/resolve these problems to help out these other aliens. There are no ethical questions in these episodes. I mean, the Romulans do try to implicate humans in the problem, but.... there just aren't any personal stakes to these episodes. Except maybe for Shran.
We'll see. I still have the two Klingon episodes to go. The Mirror Universe episodes, and the two-parter about the anti-alien faction on Earth. (And maybe the terrible finale.) I do actually remember seeing all of these originally. I must have started watching again after I knew the show had been cancelled. Ha!
Overall so far, I'm not sure S4 is weaker than S3, but I'm not sure it's better, either. We'll see how much the improvement in the characters weighs into my final opinion.
Edited: I'll also point out that S3 Episodes 18-24 really saved the season for me. I was extremely frustrated with it before then.
I also didn't really post individual episode thoughts in S3. Pretty sure the bad episodes in that season are actually worse than the bad episodes in S4. Like S3's "Extinction" and "Rajiin" are truly horrible.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 19, 2021 7:14:34 GMT -5
Desert DwellerThis is kinda my take, if I'm honest. I don't know if it's better, per se, but its strengths and weaknesses are certainly in different places. I'm happy S4 dropped the Xindi, and the MU episodes are the only post-TOS time that the MU doesn't completely suck donkey bollocks. Those MU episodes help the end of the season feel stronger even though, by design, they don't actually impact the main story in any way. But it's a very bitty season and though some of the character work is improved there's a sense they're still casting around for a specific non-Xindi direction to send the show in and the mini-arcs are kind of an attempt to throw things at the wall and see what sticks. But, in fact, none of it sticks and the show gets canned. Watching S4 it's hard to imagine that S5 would have been anything other than "more of the same" and that's just not compelling enough to feel like the lack of a S5 is a loss in any real way.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 20, 2021 0:26:20 GMT -5
Desert Dweller This is kinda my take, if I'm honest. I don't know if it's better, per se, but its strengths and weaknesses are certainly in different places. I'm happy S4 dropped the Xindi, and the MU episodes are the only post-TOS time that the MU doesn't completely suck donkey bollocks. Those MU episodes help the end of the season feel stronger even though, by design, they don't actually impact the main story in any way. But it's a very bitty season and though some of the character work is improved there's a sense they're still casting around for a specific non-Xindi direction to send the show in and the mini-arcs are kind of an attempt to throw things at the wall and see what sticks. But, in fact, none of it sticks and the show gets canned. Watching S4 it's hard to imagine that S5 would have been anything other than "more of the same" and that's just not compelling enough to feel like the lack of a S5 is a loss in any real way.
Yes, you are exactly correct that S3 and S4 each have strengths and weaknesses, but *different ones*, so I am enjoying different things about each one.
As for a potential S5, from the interviews I've seen with Manny Cotoand Berman/Braga, a possibility could have been exploring the build-up to the Romulan war and the need for the local species to all unite. If Archer was a better character, this kind of thing could really work for me. Send the ship out to visit different species, try to sell them on the idea of the Federation. "Hey, what's the problem over this area of space? How can we help solve it?" With the threat of a Romulan attack hanging over the season, it maybe could have worked. Could have played a bit with, "Is this planet's problem real, or is this something cooked up by the Romulans to make them distrust their neighboring species?" The Romulans would have made a more compelling villain than the Xindi did in S3. (Though, I guess the Xindi were more victims themselves than villains.) It just would require Archer to be a more convincing diplomat and negotiator.
I just needed to see more intention from the show and characters in S4. Make the diplomacy and desire for cooperation actually *mean* something to Archer, to give it some of the personal stakes I am missing. The stuff that happened to him in S3 was traumatic. He spent all of S4E3 "Home" complaining about having to do everything in the Expanse alone, and how he had to cross ethical lines, etc. But instead of this giving him any drive, he just goes wherever Starfleet tells him with no real purpose. (And Trip is the one who flies the ship into a combat zone to try to avert a Vulcan/Andorian war!)
Sigh. I don't know. As I've said, I am liking some of the mini-arc concepts this season, I like the fleshing out of the alien cultures. But it does all feel slightly aimless and impersonal. So far, T'Pol seems to be the only character experiencing anything significant. Well, other than Shran, but he's not a main character.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 21, 2021 17:48:42 GMT -5
I think the impersonality is the reason S4 works, or comes close to working. The main cast isn’t the show’s strong point, so the stories seem to me like they’re almost working around them and trying to bring as much attention as possible to the setting, and it kind of works for me.
Ugh, I thought the Soong episodes were terrible. The guest actors were bad, and the pacing was bad because we spent too much time with the bad guest actors. The Augment characters were terrible, and I hated everything about them. Not sure I even liked Spiner in the episodes.
And I see what you are saying about the show trying to work around the characters. And yes, the characters are all mostly bland and forgettable. But to me, making the setting/problems so impersonal isn't the solution I want. I want the series to show me why this MATTERS to our crew. The way this season is set up, it feels like only Soval and Shran have a stake in what is going on.
S2 was really bad, and I see no point in anyone watching that. "Dead Stop" and "Cogenitor" were the only episodes I found to be good/interesting. And "Dead Stop" was a fairly generic (though good) sci-fi concept episode that probably could have worked on TOS/TNG/VOY. "Cogenitor" was the only episode that worked within the prequel setting. Well, there were maybe a couple other episodes that worked in the prequel setting, but they were only mediocre-to-okay as total episodes. The show didn't really lean into the limitations that the prequel setting offered other than a handful of episodes.
S3 is a wildly hit-or-miss season. On the positive side: The narrative drive it has makes it feel like a completely different series than S1-2 and even S4. The characters have purpose, their decisions matter, the effects of their decisions accumulate over the season. The stakes are personal. The atmosphere is fantastic. And it really, really, REALLY works in the prequel setting, making the Enterprise feel so alone and helpless, in unfamiliar space with no backup. S3 "Azati Prime"/"Damage" is the only time in the history of Star Trek that I felt managed to elicit genuine fear over the ship getting attacked. They can't radio for help, or fly to a starbase, or have Starfleet send out a repair team. Wow, I am so impressed that they let the ship basically get blown to pieces in those episodes, and leave the crew utterly stranded. (What a shame the producers never let this happen on VOY!! This would have been incredible to see on that series.) Like, for a couple minutes, it seemed entirely possible that the show was going to let some characters die. And I'd even seen the end of the 4th season! And it really lands when non-named crew members die in these episodes. Feels genuinely scary and dangerous.
On the negative side: All of the episodes that aren't about the Xindi/Spheres are utterly pointless, and feel even worse than they would have felt in S1-2. There are probably 9 episodes that I would cut without hesitation from the season, and just redistribute any crucial intel from those episodes into others. Like, I have no idea why the episode "North Star" even exists. And, as I've already said, I don't like that the Enterprise crew are so fucking clueless. They not only can't figure out what is going on, they don't even try, or understand why they would even need to figure it out! Also, the T'Pol/Trip massage scenes are creepy and feel incredibly forced. And of course Archer is too angry from the beginning. Oh! And the Xindi character design is terrible.
So, I will give a cautious recommendation to S3, because I feel it is the first time ENT tries tackling Star Trek ethics and philosophy. And *eventually* has the characters realize that they need to be trying to make allies, and work with other aliens to solve a problem. And it does truly have great narrative drive, *despite* having so many pointless episodes. Just know that roughly half the episodes are bad and/or pointless. Which is still a MUCH better percentage than S1-2.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 26, 2021 9:54:44 GMT -5
I forgot or never noticed before that they actually teased Year of Hell in that earlier Kes episode. Whether planned or just a well executed callback, it’s a nice piece of work.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 26, 2021 11:15:16 GMT -5
I forgot or never noticed before that they actually teased Year of Hell in that earlier Kes episode. Whether planned or just a well executed callback, it’s a nice piece of work. It was planned, although Year Of Hell was supposed to be the end of season two-parter but got pushed back to the sweeps two-parter. Still works great though. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 26, 2021 11:50:11 GMT -5
I forgot or never noticed before that they actually teased Year of Hell in that earlier Kes episode. Whether planned or just a well executed callback, it’s a nice piece of work. It was planned, although Year Of Hell was supposed to be the end of season two-parter but got pushed back to the sweeps two-parter. Still works great though. Ah, keeping the grand Star Trek tradition of having a big long-term set-up supplanted by the Borg. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Apr 25, 2021 4:08:54 GMT -5
Anyone have thoughts over Q being in the new season of ST: Picard? And the teaser trailer hitting us over the head with "THERE WILL BE TIME TRAVEL!"?
Does this make me more or less likely to watch? I'm not sure. A definite positive is the possibility of Q mocking Picard for being a robot now. (Um, does this require a spoiler warning?)
Somewhat neutral on the time travel aspect. Could be good, could be bad. Trek doesn't have a consistent track record on this. Given the writers involved, I'm a bit worried.
I'd like to know why the producers put a giant Bajoran artifact in the teaser. Are we dealing withe Prophets (beings who can facilitate time travel)? Or Bajor? Or did they just pick something up from the Trek prop archives that looked like an ancient artifact without researching it? I have seen the way DSC and PIC handle continuity and their use of easter eggs is incredibly superficial, so I am genuinely not sure.
Nice Stargazer model in this teaser, though.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Apr 25, 2021 17:26:37 GMT -5
Somewhat neutral on the time travel aspect. Could be good, could be bad. Trek doesn't have a consistent track record on this. Given the writers involved, I'm a bit worried.
I'd like to know why the producers put a giant Bajoran artifact in the teaser. Are we dealing withe Prophets (beings who can facilitate time travel)? Or Bajor? Or did they just pick something up from the Trek prop archives that looked like an ancient artifact without researching it? I have seen the way DSC and PIC handle continuity and their use of easter eggs is incredibly superficial, so I am genuinely not sure.
Nice Stargazer model in this teaser, though.
I’d guess the Bajor thing is purposeful, but if it isn’t there’s no way it was just picking something up—for one thing I think that prop was smashed, and for another (say what you will about the writing) the Picard art dept. people seem like they’re true dorks about this stuff, so even if it’s not meaningful for the plot it’s definitely meant to be real homage (both out of appreciation for DS9, plus all Picard had a lot of respect for the Bajorans, plus archaeology) not some dumb thing.
Given that they’re bringing back Mulgrew for something it wouldn’t surprise me if they brought back Brooks, especially as a big surprise/reveal. I actually had an idea for a death of Picard with Q story a while back, and it involved some kind of diplomatic/political crisis on Cardassia that intersected with…some big conceptual thing I never bothered to figure out because I’m not a Trek writer. But even if I were, even if I thought I could do a death of Picard story (or hell, I could see Picard and the Prophets working), not in my wildest dreams would I haver the confidence for a Second Coming of Sisko. The bar for getting it right is just too high. If I were to bring Sisko back he’d already be back, living on Bajor with Kassidy and his daughter.
Yeah, I guess they did destroy that one on DS9. Although, you'd figure they had to have made more than one originally, because for logistics purposes you don't want to have only one take of something getting destroyed. Still, you are right that they probably had to recreate this in some way or form.
Maybe it is just there as another example from Trek of time travel, since basically everything else in the trailer is related to time or time travel. Or maybe the ship will stop at Bajor for an episode?
I find it hard to believe they'd attempt the return of Sisko. First of all, I'm not sure Avery Brooks would agree to be in it. And as you say, that would have a high degree of difficulty, and I'm not sure these people would even attempt it, let alone succeed at it. (They thoroughly flubbed the use of the Borg in S1.) It would also seem to require the presence of Kassidy and Jake, and would writers of ST: PIC be interested in this?
What a strange prop to put in a teaser!
I liked a lot more about PIC than I do about DSC. However, I also found it more frustrating *because* they had so many good concepts that they presented and then dropped. I liked the cast better on PIC. And I liked that the writers on that show actually let us get to know the other characters, even if the character development was somewhat lazily presented. This is way more than we get about the characters on DSC, excepting maybe Romulan Legolas.
I may have been less down on PIC if not for that incredibly ridiculous ending. Honestly, the entire last episode is a total mess of writing. Still, it does seem like there's less to fix on this show than on DSC.
We have definitely seen a bunch of people traveling around in smaller ships throughout Star Trek. That part doesn't seem weird to me. The slightly weirder part will be them travellng around completely outside the bounds of the Federation/Starfleet, given that it seems like Picard resolved most of his difficulties with Starfleet at the end of the season. And Rios's entire issue with Starfleet was related to the Romulan Spy as Head of Security and the whole "Kill all the androids" mission.
So, I'll be curious as to WHY they are still traveling in this small ship. However, since S1 ended with them all happily flying away in that small ship, maybe the writers will never bother to explain this. I would assume the show is still going to use it, because it is very expensive to build new sets.
Looks like the main cast will be back. I've seen several of them post saying they are back filming. I'd be interested in a full cast list though. Especially since they are filming already.
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Post by Prole Hole on Apr 29, 2021 15:28:50 GMT -5
Anyone have thoughts over Q being in the new season of ST: Picard? Colour me unthrilled at Q's inclusion. The straightforward inability to do anything that's actually new is the biggest curse of post-Enterprise Star Trek and I'm frankly fed up of these series just not being able to come up with anything original. In a way I do admire S1 Picard for addressing the whole B4/Data thing and bothering to take the ending of Nemesis seriously rather than an embarrassment, but at the same time... y'know. Stop leaning on the scrapings of the past to prop up the present. Star Trek is meant to be about progress - personal, society, technology et al - and going back to the same old wells is the exact opposite of that which is why the constant harking back to the TOS era in the Abramsverse and Discovery is so very wearying. I suppose Discovery deserves credit for its time jump and finally doing something new... except what it did sucked. Anyway, I'm sure there will be lots of S2 Picard material for people who think Tapestry is great rather than trite and patronising but eh. I'll give a chance, but it's a profoundly uninteresting creative choice. |
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