ABz Bđšanaz
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Post by ABz Bđšanaz on Jun 6, 2024 8:47:23 GMT -5
Well Discovery is finished. Thank goodness for that. I managed to struggle through the end of the last season but the back half was definitely a hate-watch - I'd come this far, I was going to get through it, but god this was a simply rubbish season of television. The quest was completely impossible to care about, everything of course revolved around Michael, and even her "oh I'm so full of doubt and despair" moment was about as convincing as listening to Trump talking about how much he believes in democracy. The eighth and ninth episodes managed to scare up some interest, and the library was a great concept that Discovery wasn't best placed to deal with but at least it's actually there. Everything else just felt so tired, like nobody could really invest anything into the stories, so didn't. It's hard to screw up a quest storyline but there's also no interest derived from it - there's no doubt that Our Heroes are going to be able to assemble all the pieces. And right enough, they do. You could argue that it's not just about whether they get all the pieces but how they get all the pieces, and that would be fair if the "how" was in any way interesting or engaging but it isn't. Callum Keith Rennie as Rayner was a welcome addition to the cast but is also the sort of character that should have been there from the get-go - the sort of character that can be occasionally used to just cut through stuff so we can get on with things. But for the rest? Just the same old same old. Everything stops so there can be lots of feels. Nothing really develops any actual momentum. Not enough Tig Notaro, who's been utterly wasted in this season (and indeed the whole show). The Breen are reduced from a blank, unknowable threat to Just Another Bad Guy. And on it goes. Urgh. I mean, the representation is great and the show is genuinely progressive in some ways that are incredibly worthwhile but it's all just so dull. Ultimately, the problem with Discovery isn't that it's "woke". The problem is that it isn't anything else. I agree with almost all of that. Like I've said on here, I watched Discovery mostly for the characters because the plot was not great. The IDEA of this quest was neat, and I loved tying it to the Progenitors from TNG who they never mentioned again after meeting them, but I knew from the start that nothing was going to actually HAPPEN with them. At the very least I thought they MIGHT use the power to resurrect L'ak so he and Moll could be together somehow, but even that thread just petered out. "Nope, sorry, enjoy your jail time." |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jun 7, 2024 21:04:39 GMT -5
Scott McNulty has a Trek podcast called "Random Trek" where he invites guests on to talk about an episode that is essentially randomly generated by a number generator. I listen to these if the episode that comes up is particularly discussable, either really bad, really good, or with a crazy story.
Today a new episode popped up on my feed. The random episode generator chose ENT "These Are the Voyages". His description contains the following: "Topics include how bad this episode is on many levels."
This is a good time to mention that when I did my full ENT watch a few years ago, I didn't actually watch this episode. I was dithering about whether I should watch it or not, and then all of Trek vanished from Netflix and I didn't have a Paramount+ subscription, so I figured fate made that decision for me.
Anyway, Scott and his guest do a bit of an intro about their familiarity with ENT, and then Scott attempts to start his episode recap. "This episode... takes place in the middle of a TNG episode." They both again gripe about this. Scott finally sighs and says, "I don't understand how anyone thought this was okay".
Yeah. What else is there to discuss? That is the only discussion point, really. How the hell did this happen?
Anyway, this is all to say, as silly as modern Trek's season finales have been, they will never beat that. I haven't seen DSC's series finale, but I am quite sure it isn't as bad as that. I thought PIC's season 1 finale was dumb, but it still wasn't that bad. The PIC series finale had stifling levels of nostalgia, but at least it was about those characters, and didn't pretend it was all a holodeck simulation during a TNG episode.
I know Berman/Braga said that they'd had this idea for a previous season, but never worked it in. And they didn't know this was going to be the series finale.... But, you knew it was a SEASON finale, right? Why were they even invited back to do this? Didn't everyone learn their lessons with ENT's S3 finale, which flung them all back in time to confront alien Nazis? How did that not revoke their right to work on any Trek season finale ever again?
Sigh.
In conclusion, I now have a free month of Paramount+ and I think I'm still not going to watch the ENT finale. (Though I am going to try to finally watch SNW season 2.)
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Ben Grimm
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jun 11, 2024 18:20:43 GMT -5
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jun 12, 2024 1:23:44 GMT -5
Ugh, I had minimal interest in that show, and now this may get me to watch it. Love Giamatti so much. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Jun 13, 2024 3:12:33 GMT -5
So my fella and I have now made it through TNG. Not every single episode but the majority that qualify as good, watchable, or at least not dull (so Sub Rosa got watched, for example, because it really does need to be seen to be believed). It was wonderful to watch it with someone who had pretty much no exposure to the series and love to be able to share one of my life-long loves with the love of my life. Anyway, after it was done we went through the process of compiling a Top 20 list of episodes. Mine looked liked this... (these are in order)
1 The Best of Both Worlds
2 Chain of Command
3 All Good ThingsâŚ
4 Yesterdayâs Enterprise
5 The Pegasus
6 The Offspring
7 Starship Mine
8 Face of the Enemy
9 Lower Decks
10 Sarek
11 Conspiracy
12 The Inner Light
13 The Most Toys
14 Clues
15 Disaster
16 Future Imperfect
17 Parallels
18 Time Squared
19 Remember Me
20 Timescape
(With Darmok and The Quality of Life hovering just outside).
His looked like this:
1. The Survivors
2. Dataâs Day
3. Yesterdayâs Enterprise
4. The Offspring
5. Clues
6. All Good Things
7. Chain of Command
8. Future Imperfect
9. The Best of Both Worlds
10. Lower Decks
11. Disaster
12. Face of the Enemy
13. The Inner Light
14. Dark Page
15. The Pegasus
16. Conundrum
17. Cause and Effect
18. A Matter of Perspective
19. Remember Me
20. The Most Toys
We have now started both DS9 and Voyager. It took two attempts to get through "Emissary" (which is fair, because it's crap) and breezed through "Caretaker". Two episodes in and the opinion is that DS9 might have better characters (specifically, Kira, Odo, and Quark at this stage) but Voyager is a more fun, watchable show. Let's see how things go!
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jun 13, 2024 17:14:09 GMT -5
Prole Hole I really like your fellaâs list, not because itâs mine but because itâs almost all strong, distinctiveâ, emotionally-grounded episodes that are almost all worthy of âfavoriteâ but donât necessarily make it to âbest ofâ lists. I have a real soft spot for âThe Survivorsâ because Iâve passed by the house a few timesâyou get a good view on your way to the hike to Escondido Falls. I went on its street once to get a better look but it didnât shake out as hoped.  (Actually itâs just mostly hidden by a big green wallâI thought the street would provide an alternate path to the falls trail but it turned out to be one of those many Los Angeles-area cases where Google directs you up pathways that are private-access only.)
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Post by Prole Hole on Sept 17, 2024 12:06:07 GMT -5
So I've mentioned this a couple of times in different places but my fella and I are watching DS9 and Voyager concurrently, roughly alternating one episode per show per evening (with occasional Lower Decks thrown in, but let's not complicate this).
We're around halfway through the second season of both shows and it's interesting how things are shaking out. My fella hasn't any real knowledge of either show beyond having seen a most of TNG, the first two TNG movies, and about half the TOS movies, as well as being vaguely aware that DS9 is "the good one" and Voyager is regarded as "less good" (and that it's my favourite, I guess).
We're not skipping and just watching all the episodes through as-is (we skipped one Voyager episode, then my fella decided he just wanted to watch everything. Brave!). We're up to "Necessary Evil" in DS9 and "Cold Fire" in Voyager. At the moment, this is the opinion of someone coming to both series' completely fresh and as unencumbered by prejudice as much as is possible these days.
What it has so far come down to is this. DS9 has higher highs but lower lows, whereas Voyager has been much more consistent. DS9 has better characters overall (with Kira and Odo standing out, with a nod to Keiko, of all people) but Voyager has no character as irritating as Rom or as useless as Dax. Well done Harry, I suppose.
However, what really stands out is this. We start every episode but if we're halfway through and it's obviously just boring or not worth bothering with we'll abandon it with him making the yes/no call. A "good" terrible episode is preferable to simply dull, in his eyes (mine too, to be fair). And there's more than a dozen DS9 episodes with the red bar about halfway through then abandoned, whereas there's exactly one Voyager episode sitting in the same state. Voyager may not have hit the highs of Duet yet but it's been a consistently more entertaining, and less dull, show than DS9 is thus far.
This is a little surprising to me for two reason. Firstly, of course S1 and S2 of both shows aren't good, because it's 90s Star Trek and the first couple of seasons never are. But I regard Voyager's second season as one of the absolute worst seasons of any Star Trek ever (and saying that as a fan) and was expecting it to get crucified, yet DS9's is just a litany of, "oh god, why does anyone care about this?" "Necessary Evil" was, for me, telling in this case. I had memories of it being a great episode, an interesting exploration of Odo's past, and how he and Kira first met. What is actually turned out be was a plodding, laboured, pseudo-noir piece of nothing that has precisely one good minute out of forty-five (it's the last one, if you're interested). We got through it but not by much.
Second surprise was that I really was expecting DS9 to simply walk away with the better series award but it hasn't. I know I'm strongly biassed towards Voyager and that DS9 is the critics darling but I fully acknowledge that I'm the outlier here. I've even been quite happy to concede that DS9 is a better show - it's just not the one I prefer. However, at this point, my fella is actually slightly leaning towards Voyager over DS9. Voyager can be a silly space show but it's usually entertaining, even when the entertainment sometimes dips towards MST3K levels. Whereas DS9 is Heavy Space Politics and when those don't land, the show is simply boring. He's not opposed to Heavy Space Politics, it just hasn't reached the point where they've become especially compelling yet, whereas Voyager is usually at least fun to watch.
I have also mentioned that DS9 really takes off with "The Jem'Hadar" and Voyager with "Basics", as both shows pretty much abandon what they tried to do in the first couple of seasons and finally find their footing. It will be - if you will excuse the choice of word - fascinating to see whether this remains the case watching both in parallel and whether the fella agrees with that assessment.
Updates to come!
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Sept 17, 2024 19:36:47 GMT -5
Something in the 3rd season Picard episode "No Win Scenario" has bothered me for a year and a half since I first saw it. Out of all the things happening in the world, I can't believe this is what makes me mad enough to write about, but here we are. Picard says "Jack Crusher was once my very best friend at the Academy." He tells a story about them stealing a shuttle together when they were on the Stargazer, with the implication that they were cadets or ensigns at the time. But that completely flies in the face of all previously-established canon about Picard's relationship to Jack and Beverly. The problem, as usual with Star Trek, is that specific dates are rarely mentioned, and when they are, sometimes they're visual references that might be quasi-canonical, or information taken non-canonical books or production sources. The ages of the characters also do not necessarily match the ages of the actors. Another problem here is that Picard apparently doesn't quite match up with where the timeline should be (assuming a year for us is a year in the world of Star Trek). So, what evidence do we have for everyone's ages...well in the last episode of season 1 of Picard "Et in Arcadia Ego" part 2, Picard says he's 94 years old. In the same episode, Data says he died in 2379 (during the events of Nemesis). TNG started in 1987 for us and 2364 in the show, so it was 377 years in the future, and that matches what Data says (2379 is 377 years from 2002, when Nemesis came out). Season 1 of Picard should therefore be 2397, since it aired in 2020. In TNGâs "The First Duty", Picard says he was in the "class of â27", and he graduated when he was 22, so he must have been born in 2305. The personnel files in the TNG episode "Conundrum" agree with this (and there his birthday is July 13, Patrick Stewartâs actual birthday). It has always been my understanding that information that was only ever meant to displayed on screen and not spoken in dialogue is not necessarily canonical; otherwise we'd have to accept that there's a giant rubber duck somewhere inside the Enterprise-D, or that the engines were designed by Yoyodyne Industries, or Admiral Roddenberry was in charge of Starfleet, or whatever other jokes they put in there that we couldn't really see on standard-definition TV's back in the old days. But 2305 seems to be his canonical year of birth. That would mean Picard actually takes place in 2399, if Picard was 94 years old at the time (so the "current" Star Trek world is now 379 years ahead of us, not 377).
Anyway, as for the Crushers, Wesley was supposed to be 15/16 at the beginning of TNG, so he was born in 2348 or so. Beverlyâs personnel file in "Conundrum" (again, taking this to be canonical) says she was born October 13, 2324, so she was about 24 when Wesley was born. The only information about Jack Sr.âs age, as far as I know, is that in the script for "Family" it says his hologram appears to be âabout 24.â The hologram was made when Wesley was 10 weeks old, so presumably also in 2348, and if Jack Sr. was 24 at the time, then he was also born in 2324 and was the same age as Beverly. (Notes on a script seem even less canonical than background images, but this makes the most sense.) Jack Sr. died when Wesley was 5, so in 2353. Wil Wheaton actually was 15 in season 1 of TNG. Gates McFadden was born in 1949 so she turned 38 in 1987; if Beverly was born in 2324 she would have been 40 in 2364. Jack Sr.'s actor Doug Wert was born in 1961 so he was 29 when "Family" aired, slightly older than 24. Of course Patrick Stewart and Jack Jr.'s actor Ed Speleers are way off: Stewart was born in 1940 and is 12 years younger than Picard (he was 47 in 1987, Picard was 59 in 2364), and Speleers goes the opposite way, he was about 35 in season 3 of Picard, much older than whatever age Jack Jr. is supposed to be (about 20?). So that actually isnât very helpful. In TNG Jack Sr. was Picardâs first officer on the Stargazer. They were good friends and Picard developed romantic feelings for Beverly. But Picard was the captain and Jack Sr. was a lieutenant commander, so they were never supposed to be the same age. They had more of a mentor relationship like Picard and Riker. Picard should have been 19 years older than them, and already in the Academy when they were born. But if Picard and Jack Sr. were cadets together, then assuming they were about the same age and Jack Sr. was also born in 2305, he would have been 43 when Wesley was born and 48 when he died. (Obviously not impossible, it just means that 29-year-old Doug Wert was supposed to be portraying a 43-year-old Jack Sr. in "Family".) Does that mean Beverly also the same age as them? If she was also born around 2305 then she would have also been 43 when Wesley was born, about 58 in TNG season 1, she and Picard would both be about 76 when Jack Jr. was born, and they would both be about 96 in Picard season 3. On the other hand if she was born in 2324 and was 24 when Wesley was born, she would have been about 57 when Jack Jr. was born and 75 (or 76? 77?) in Picard season 3 (closer to McFaddenâs age at the time, 73). The TNG episode "Violations" has a flashback to Jack Sr.âs death, and 31-year-old Doug Wert and 43-year-old Gates McFadden arenât really made up to look any younger than they really were. Well maybe McFadden was a little bit, with her blonde wigâŚPatrick Stewart also had a fabulous wig but he still appears to be much older than both of them. Picardâs brother and sister-in-law also seem to have the same issue. Robert Picard was older than Jean-Luc, who was 62 when he visited him in "Family." Robert must have been in his mid- to late-60s. Rene was a child in 2367, but I donât think his specific age is ever given. We also donât know how old Marie was. As for the actors, David Tristan Birkin was 13 at the time, Stewart was 50, Jeremy Kemp was 55, and Samantha Eggar was 51. So, also not really helpful. Marie was either very old when she had Rene or the Picard brothers are super attractive to much younger women. So the possible solutions are: - Picard, Beverly, and Jack Sr. are all the same age. Beverly had one baby at age 43 and another at age 76. Itâs 400 years in the future, a 76-year-old woman could still have a baby, why not. - Picard and Jack Sr. are the same age but Beverly is 19 years younger. Beverly is attracted to the much older Picard so maybe she was also attracted to a much older Jack Sr. - Jack Sr. and Beverly were the same age but Picard is 19 years older. Beverly had Jack Jr. when she was 57 (not impossible even today). - Since Picard in season 2 and 3 is actually an android, maybe heâs an unreliable narrator or his memories are scrambled.
- Android Picard is just fucking with Jack Jr. and also with the cadets listening to his other stories (although it's implied that Beverly already told Jack Jr. this same story) The actual answer is presumably just that the writers made an incredible effort to service the fandom and got everything else perfectly correct, but somehow managed to completely fuck up this one thing. |
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Ben Grimm
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Post by Ben Grimm on Sept 17, 2024 19:51:35 GMT -5
Could Picard have been back at the academy, maybe for a teaching assignment, when he met Jack? And they became friends, and he then took Jack with him to the Stargazer? We know Kirk went back to teach at one point. That would fit your third bullet.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Sept 17, 2024 21:44:31 GMT -5
It was just a fanwank by PIC writers who thought it sounded neat, and never bothered to think deeper about it. The entire season was a bunch of fan service with little logic or coherence.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Sept 17, 2024 22:14:29 GMT -5
I have also mentioned that DS9 really takes off with "The Jem'Hadar" and Voyager with "Basics", as both shows pretty much abandon what they tried to do in the first couple of seasons and finally find their footing. It will be - if you will excuse the choice of word - fascinating to see whether this remains the case watching both in parallel and whether the fella agrees with that assessment. Updates to come!
I think DS9 is pretty bad in Season 1 and mediocre at best in Season 2. I recently got a friend to start watching and literally had her skip something like 75% of the episodes in those two seasons. I don't think the writers even figure out the characterization of the main characters until midway through S2. The show hadn't really kicked off any of the main plots. It was mainly doing world-building, setting the stakes so that viewers could understand what happened later. I don't even count the S2 finale for when DS9 really improves. I think it is the back third of Season 3. The middle of S3 still really drags. It isn't until S4 that DS9 has a consistently high quality writing level.
(I checked the list I gave my friend, and I only had her watch 50% of the combined episodes from DS9 S1-S3.)
I will say that I still quite like "Necessary Evil" and find it a fascinating look at Odo, Kira and Dukat.
Of course, I also thought Season 2 of VOY was so bad that it made me stop watching it during its initial run. But keep in mind that I was watching Season 2 of VOY live and it was airing up against Season 4 of DS9. There is no way that VOY could keep up with that.
For me VOY's problems are more cumulative in nature. The constant resets. The way the plots are twisted so that Janeway is always right, which has the effect of giving her a wildly inconsistent character. (The writers of ENT did this with Bakula's character, too.) Plus the way that none of the characters get developed anywhere near the level of what DS9 was doing. Of course, none of the other Trek series develop characters the way DS9 did. And finally, it all just became a bit same old, same old for me. Just a re-tread of the "sci-fi problem of the week" that TNG had already done. Except with less fun characters. So there are some individual episodes I enjoy, but I find it a disappointing series overall.
Now that I've finally finished ENT, I'd probably rate VOY ahead of it, but not by much. ENT has a lot of the same problems, but also just some total incompetence in writing especially in Seasons 1 & 2. S3 at least TRIED to do something interesting, but the writing for Bakula's character is so terrible that it honestly undermines what the plot is doing. I found S4's writing to be better, but the fan service of it all really got on my nerves, to the point where I'd rate it even with S3.
But yeah, I'm just not sure I'd feel comfortable rating any 90s Trek show based on Seasons 1 and 2. I love DS9, but I agree that a lot of S2 is boring. It is also a lot of "maybe not even sci-fi problem of the week", but usually with more talking and less action. |
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Sept 19, 2024 15:00:06 GMT -5
I was just thinking of early DS9 and early VOYâs failure modes being displaced a bit. Early DS9 fails hardest when itâs most TNG-esque, early VOY when itâs trying to be more DS9-like (recurring characters, getting drawn into other speciesâ, politics, inter-cast drama, Seskaâs whole conception being derived from âSecond Skinâ; even the Maquis, invented for VOY, worked better on DS9). For me VOY's problems are more cumulative in nature. The constant resets. The way the plots are twisted so that Janeway is always right, which has the effect of giving her a wildly inconsistent character. Didnât the universe literally bend its structure to accommodate Michael Burnham? VOYâs whole premise works against DS9-esque arcsâtheyâre constantly moving on!âbut that also robbed the characters of a broader context and sometimes unmoored them, Janeway especially, sometimes making diametrically opposite decisions from episode to episode. TNG did this too with Picardâs decisions, but Stewartâs acting and the showâs more pensive nature of TNG allowed us to feel like we were following his though process. Janewayâs tendency towards quick decisions and lack of self-reflection (again sheâs right in every episode) made her seem capricious. Picard made a decision, Janeway made the decision.
That also led to a dynamic where conflictâwhether a disagreement with the senior staff or with recurring adversaries like Seska or the Borg Queenâwas less ultimately less well-defined thematically, in practice taking the form of whether theyâre for or against Janeway. Seskaâs the extreme version of this: her motivations stand up to no scrutiny because her motivation is ultimately âIâm against Janeway and that makes me bad,â which doesnât really even follow from her stated âwe canât straightjacket ourselves morallyâ and âwe need alliesâ motivations (both of which are defensible points of view, with Janeway arguably taking the former and definitely taking the latter stance in some later episodes). DS9 had a related but different issue early on with a center thatâs not unstable but just plain empty. Siskoâs basically a cipher until his âItâs hard to be a saint in paradiseâ moment in âThe Maquisâ (see!)âhis best episodes before then are âEmissaryâ (not really in the job because heâs still processing grief) and âDramatis Personaeâ (not really Sisko). Iâm not surprised Prole Hole âs fella gave Rosalind Chao some dueâwhen I think back to âIn the Hands of the Prophetsâ I think of Keiko first, then Winn, then Kira, and sheâs essential to the second yearâs torture OâBrien episodes too. Having only three or four pre-season three DS9 episodes until the blu-rays I have a different view of them. There are some terrible ones (âThe Passengerâ is the series worse, worse than âLet He Who is Without SinâŚâ imo, âThe Nagusâ is bad-weird, âMeloraâ and âSecond Sightâ terrible Trek romances, and the one with the junior Trill justâŚnot good) but overall I do like them because I can spot how things will evolve and thereâs just a feeling of goodwill towards everyone from knowing them from later. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Sept 19, 2024 17:27:28 GMT -5
I was just thinking of early DS9 and early VOYâs failure modes being displaced a bit. Early DS9 fails hardest when itâs most TNG-esque, early VOY when itâs trying to be more DS9-like (recurring characters, getting drawn into other speciesâ, politics, inter-cast drama, Seskaâs whole conception being derived from âSecond Skinâ; even the Maquis, invented for VOY, worked better on DS9). For me VOY's problems are more cumulative in nature. The constant resets. The way the plots are twisted so that Janeway is always right, which has the effect of giving her a wildly inconsistent character. Didnât the universe literally bend its structure to accommodate Michael Burnham?
Yes, but I was talking about classic Trek. I cannot stand DSC because of this tendency with Michael Burnham. It is way worse than what happened with Janeway/VOY.
Yes, this is what drives me crazy. In TNG, Picard actually thinks about the situation, and evaluates it accordingly. Like, it seems like this is built into the premise, that the writing wants to challenge Picard and make him work through a problem. In VOY it just seems like Janeway capriciously makes decisions just because the episode needs her to be on the correct side. And yes, there's no real thinking about it, everyone just aligns pro or against Janeway. So, this doesn't really bother me on an episode-to-episode basis, but it becomes very annoying on a cumulative watch.
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Post by Prole Hole on Oct 5, 2024 11:37:03 GMT -5
Our DS9/Voyager re-watch is about to hit an important milestone. Next up - Threshold!
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Oct 5, 2024 13:42:00 GMT -5
I was wrong in my memory of âIn the Hands of the Prophets.â It is a kick-ass Sisko episode, even if his characterization still isnât any more specific than âupstanding paternal figure with high emotional and political intelligence.â
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Ben Grimm
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Post by Ben Grimm on Oct 5, 2024 16:26:50 GMT -5
Our DS9/Voyager re-watch is about to hit an important milestone. Next up - Threshold! aka the last episode of Voyager I watched |
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ABz Bđšanaz
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Post by ABz Bđšanaz on Oct 5, 2024 20:47:55 GMT -5
Our DS9/Voyager re-watch is about to hit an important milestone. Next up - Threshold! aka the last episode of Voyager I watched. It wasn't until my rewatch that I realized that ENTIRE EPISODE IS FIRE until the last five minutes where it goes insane. Literally...it's GREAT until then. No idea why they shit the bed so badly on it. |
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Post by Ben Grimm on Oct 6, 2024 14:39:25 GMT -5
aka the last episode of Voyager I watched. It wasn't until my rewatch that I realized that ENTIRE EPISODE IS FIRE until the last five minutes where it goes insane. Literally...it's GREAT until then. No idea why they shit the bed so badly on it. I may remember watching that episode more distinctly than any other from that era. When it came out, I was at the University of Arkansas, and we didn't have a local UPN station, so it wasn't airing locally. There was a UPN station in Ft. Smith, about an hour away, so someone had their parents tape it, then they ran down once a week, got the tape, brought it back, and then a group of us packed into a screening room in the library basement the next evening to watch it. After they dropped that particular turd in the punch bowl I was just irrationally angry at it. I just sort of fumed all the way home. I felt personally insulted. I was so pissed off afterwards that going to the trouble of dragging my ass to the library every week, several hours after I would have last been on campus, to watch a show that disappointed me week after week just seemed like too much bother. So I stopped watching it, and by the time, a few years later, I actually had access to UPN, I just didn't care anymore. |
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Oct 6, 2024 20:44:42 GMT -5
Good things about âThresholdâ: Robert Duncan McNeilâs acting, the makeup, the fact that if you know whatâs coming you can find humor in it, no mention of Neelixâs sex life (more than one could say about other season two episodes) Bad thigns about âThresholdâ: So poorly thought out that each successive line not just dumb but dumb in a new way, inconsistent with the previous line, science (even basic math) thatâs so bad it goes far, far beyond usual Trek suspension of disbelief stuff, characters acting uncharacteristically dumb not even for story purposes, not showing mutant Tom Parisâs exciting escape but having someone describe it happening off screen Everyone has different parameters for suspension of disbelief but âThresholdâ is at a level where it goes beyond insulting its audience, it makes the audience concerned that the writer has some kind of brain tumor affecting their judgment and cognition. I think some of the pushback on it being the worst comes from nostalgia and from reaction from it being so hated by a more science or technically-oriented fan, but really you donât have to be technically-oriented to recognize that a lot of whatâs here is just dumb. Plus part of suspension of disbelief is skill in storytelling, and âThresholdâ does not rise to the level required to make it work (nor do I think it could). I donât think itâs the worst in the season,* though, because of episodes like âParturition,â which is an overdose of Neelix at his jealous worst, and âElogium,â which combines that with confirmation that Neelix and Kes do, in fact, fuck (how about in dog years, Neelix?), plus evolutionary biology thatâs about as bad as that in âThreshold.â
*or series, or all of Trek to that point or, all of Trek, which was a common position until some point in Enterprise, probably one of the episodes featuring their doctor (the one where he condemns the space Neanderthals to death?).
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Post by Desert Dweller on Oct 6, 2024 21:50:39 GMT -5
Bad thigns about âThresholdâ: So poorly thought out that each successive line not just dumb but dumb in a new way, inconsistent with the previous line, science (even basic math) thatâs so bad it goes far, far beyond usual Trek suspension of disbelief stuff, characters acting uncharacteristically dumb not even for story purposes, not showing mutant Tom Parisâs exciting escape but having someone describe it happening off screen
This is the problem exactly. It isn't just that the science is dumb. There are loads of Trek episodes with dumb science. It is how everything that happens is inconsistent with what it just said one scene prior. The scenes become nonsensical relative to other scenes in the same episode. The episode makes no sense on any level.
Surely not. There is no ENT episode worse than TOS "And the Children Shall Lead". Not even "Threshold" is that bad. Also, ENT "Dear Doctor" is not even close to the worst episode on that series.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Oct 6, 2024 21:52:29 GMT -5
Our DS9/Voyager re-watch is about to hit an important milestone. Next up - Threshold! aka the last episode of Voyager I watched
It was the last one I watched in the original run. I *think* I have now seen the whole series? It took me years, though, to get through it on streaming.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Oct 7, 2024 11:40:30 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I do not know Enterprise that well because thatâs where I checked out, I think around the âDear Doctor,â although I might be confusing it with another terrible Dr. Phlox episode. âDear Doctorâ is horrifying morally, but yeah worst is probably either âAnd the Children Shall Leadâ or probably something else in the third season of TOS, probably something egregiously sexist. I was watching TOS on the Chicago nostalgia years ago and I just gave up early in the third year, something about the mood was off, just too depressing (though Iâve seen other episodes from that year randomly and liked them). I am kind of thankful for Enterprise being bad, though, as it meant I had no interest in Star Trek in middle and high school which allowed me a semi-normal puberty.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Oct 7, 2024 15:31:46 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I do not know Enterprise that well because thatâs where I checked out, I think around the âDear Doctor,â although I might be confusing it with another terrible Dr. Phlox episode. âDear Doctorâ is horrifying morally, but yeah worst is probably either âAnd the Children Shall Leadâ or probably something else in the third season of TOS, probably something egregiously sexist. I was watching TOS on the Chicago nostalgia years ago and I just gave up early in the third year, something about the mood was off, just too depressing (though Iâve seen other episodes from that year randomly and liked them). I am kind of thankful for Enterprise being bad, though, as it meant I had no interest in Star Trek in middle and high school which allowed me a semi-normal puberty. No, "Dear Doctor" is the episode you are thinking about. That one is fine until the strange ending. What is truly bizarre is that Phlox says that, and then Captain Archer just agrees with him. That episode is not nearly the trainwreck of "Threshold" which makes no sense at all. ENT "A Night in Sickbay" is completely ridiculous and way, way worse than "Dear Doctor". There are so many terrible episodes in S1-2 of that series, though. "Precious Cargo" is awful and may contend for worst of the series. Worse is that so many ENT episodes are bland and forgettable. Still, nothing in ENT is as bad as "And the Children Shall Lead". That doesn't even look like a professional episode of television. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Oct 8, 2024 6:56:52 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I do not know Enterprise that well because thatâs where I checked out, I think around the âDear Doctor,â although I might be confusing it with another terrible Dr. Phlox episode. âDear Doctorâ is horrifying morally, but yeah worst is probably either âAnd the Children Shall Leadâ or probably something else in the third season of TOS, probably something egregiously sexist. I was watching TOS on the Chicago nostalgia years ago and I just gave up early in the third year, something about the mood was off, just too depressing (though Iâve seen other episodes from that year randomly and liked them). I am kind of thankful for Enterprise being bad, though, as it meant I had no interest in Star Trek in middle and high school which allowed me a semi-normal puberty. Turnabout Intruder is the worst episode of TOS and quite possibly the worst episode of Star Trek full stop. Threshold is fine with a couple of minutes of complete stupidity. Turnabout Intruder is 45 joyless minutes of unrelentingly terrible sexism and mysogyny and some of the worst acting ever committed to screen. It's genuinely painful to watch, never manages to cross the threshold (heh) into MST3K-levels of entertainment unlike a lot of S3 (The Way To Eden, Spock's Brain, and many others) and is just generally unbearable and irredeemable. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Oct 17, 2024 11:36:53 GMT -5
So the follow-up to the fella watching Threshold was, "what's all the fuss about? I'd rather have 43 minutes of a good episode followed by two minutes of idoicy than struggle through 43 minutes of idiocy just to get to the damned point." Which I pretty much agree on, unsurprisingly. Almost all of the episode is great up until the salamanders and the extra comment added to them was, "well at least they took a swing, even if it missed. Better that that a predictable ending." Which, again, yup. Whatever else that ending is, it is not predictable if you don't know what's coming (He was entirely unspoiled on why the episode had such a reputation, only that it had).
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