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Post by Prole Hole on Jun 17, 2021 15:18:18 GMT -5
B) commit the cardinal sin of over-exposure (see also: Borg, the). The Q are a race of capricious godlike beings. They're supposed to be mysterious and inscrutable. The more we know about them the less interesting they become. Going to have to disagree with B) there. There are three Q episodes over seven seasons in Voyager (with a four season gap between The Q And The Grey and Q2). DS9 gets one, and TNG gets... eight. You can argue that he/they are over-exposed but you can't lay that one at the feet of Voyager (and also Death Wish is the second-best Q story after All Good Things...). |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jun 17, 2021 15:29:16 GMT -5
Going to have to disagree with B) there. There are three Q episodes over seven seasons in Voyager (with a four season gap between The Q And The Grey and Q2). DS9 gets one, and TNG gets... eight. You can argue that he/they are over-exposed but you can't lay that one at the feet of Voyager (and also Death Wish is the second-best Q story after All Good Things...). I guess you could make the argument that bringing him back at all for Voyager was over-exposure in terms of the franchise, but in terms of the series it's hardly the same as the Borg (or even Barclay and Troi) |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jun 17, 2021 18:52:25 GMT -5
Going to have to disagree with B) there. There are three Q episodes over seven seasons in Voyager (with a four season gap between The Q And The Grey and Q2). DS9 gets one, and TNG gets... eight. You can argue that he/they are over-exposed but you can't lay that one at the feet of Voyager (and also Death Wish is the second-best Q story after All Good Things...). I was less referring to Q the character and more referring to Q the species. (Though, yeah, Q the character probably showed up a few too many times on TNG). I was never interested in visiting the continuum or learning about Q society and I particularly didn't want a Starfleet captain stepping in and solving their civil war for them. I liked the idea of humans just being Q's weird obsession and otherwise being utterly beneath the notice of the rest of the continuum. |
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Post by patbat on Jul 8, 2021 15:01:50 GMT -5
Guys, I failed in my efforts to get my wife (a huge TNG and Voyager fan) into DS9. Dr. Bashir's horny, creepy refusal to leave Jadzia alone was just too much for her  |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jul 8, 2021 15:28:05 GMT -5
Guys, I failed in my efforts to get my wife (a huge TNG and Voyager fan) into DS9. Dr. Bashir's horny, creepy refusal to leave Jadzia alone was just too much for her Bashir's straight-up sexual harassment of Dax early on is always jarring on re-watch, and while they tone it down significantly after season 1 he's kind of creepily sniffing around her right up to the end. (Pairing him up with Ezri in season 7 as a weird consolation prize was, in a word, gross.) Fortunately, his Dax-obsession becomes much easier to ignore once his relationship with O'Brien takes center stage, but that takes a good long while to develop. |
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jul 8, 2021 15:52:17 GMT -5
Guys, I failed in my efforts to get my wife (a huge TNG and Voyager fan) into DS9. Dr. Bashir's horny, creepy refusal to leave Jadzia alone was just too much for her Bashir's straight-up sexual harassment of Dax early on is always jarring on re-watch, and while they tone it down significantly after season 1 he's kind of creepily sniffing around her right up to the end. (Pairing him up with Ezri in season 7 as a weird consolation prize was, in a word, gross.) Fortunately, his Dax-obsession becomes much easier to ignore once his relationship with O'Brien takes center stage, but that takes a good long while to develop. There's a fan-written Zoom drama thing he did last year with Andy Robinson and some of the other DS9 cast members that went further:
Ezri died at some point after the end of the series, the symbiote was transferred to a male host, and Bashir tried to make the relationship work with him for a while before deciding he just wasn't bi.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jul 8, 2021 16:26:50 GMT -5
Guys, I failed in my efforts to get my wife (a huge TNG and Voyager fan) into DS9. Dr. Bashir's horny, creepy refusal to leave Jadzia alone was just too much for her Bashir's straight-up sexual harassment of Dax early on is always jarring on re-watch, and while they tone it down significantly after season 1 he's kind of creepily sniffing around her right up to the end. (Pairing him up with Ezri in season 7 as a weird consolation prize was, in a word, gross.) Fortunately, his Dax-obsession becomes much easier to ignore once his relationship with O'Brien takes center stage, but that takes a good long while to develop. They kind of do poorly by Dax the whole series. As much as I love TNG Worf, they never really make it clear why she puts up with the bullshit of the DS9 version of the character. There’s also her weirdly apologetic acceptance of Quark and the Ferengi. Kira’s romantic plots are also dire, but at least she always seemed to have other interesting stuff going on. Dax just kind of existed to have other characters bounce off. |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jul 8, 2021 16:54:16 GMT -5
Bashir's straight-up sexual harassment of Dax early on is always jarring on re-watch, and while they tone it down significantly after season 1 he's kind of creepily sniffing around her right up to the end. (Pairing him up with Ezri in season 7 as a weird consolation prize was, in a word, gross.) Fortunately, his Dax-obsession becomes much easier to ignore once his relationship with O'Brien takes center stage, but that takes a good long while to develop. They kind of do poorly by Dax the whole series. As much as I love TNG Worf, they never really make it clear why she puts up with the bullshit of the DS9 version of the character. There’s also her weirdly apologetic acceptance of Quark and the Ferengi. Kira’s romantic plots are also dire, but at least she always seemed to have other interesting stuff going on. Dax just kind of existed to have other characters bounce off. She had a good rapport with Sisko, but Jadzia was always written as a male writer's fantasy girlfriend. Which is weird, because Kira is probably the best-written female character across all the Trek series. It's like they used up all the multidimensionality on Kira and when they got to Dax all they could come up with was "Hot. Flirty. Smart, but not in, like, an intimidating way. Used to be a dude so she totally understands dudes (sexy lesbian episode at some point??)" I don't really blame Farrell for getting sick of the role. |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jul 8, 2021 18:43:52 GMT -5
I don’t know, I feel like Jadzia’s transformation makes sense in-universe and made the character better (akin to Riker growing the beard, going from over-serious to more fun—“action Barbie” in Farrell’s words). The “sexy lesbian” episode really isn’t that either, at all. Really one of the many “growing the beard” changes that slowly came around as the second season progressed (I like the first more than most, but there’s definitely a dourness to early DS9 that’s thematically appropriate but just less fun). fwiw Farrell wasn’t tired of the character—she left because she just couldn’t put up with Berman’s negging sexual harassment for any longer and kept quiet about it until a couple of years ago. I was being tongue-in-cheek, and I think "Rejoined" is a good episode in the grand Trek tradition of exploring contemporary social issues through scifi metaphor...but I think the writers were at least somewhat motivated by getting to show Terry Farrell and Susanna Thompson making out. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jul 8, 2021 19:38:29 GMT -5
I don’t know, I feel like Jadzia’s transformation makes sense in-universe and made the character better (akin to Riker growing the beard, going from over-serious to more fun—“action Barbie” in Farrell’s words). The “sexy lesbian” episode really isn’t that either, at all. Really one of the many “growing the beard” changes that slowly came around as the second season progressed (I like the first more than most, but there’s definitely a dourness to early DS9 that’s thematically appropriate but just less fun). fwiw Farrell wasn’t tired of the character—she left because she just couldn’t put up with Berman’s negging sexual harassment for any longer and kept quiet about it until a couple of years ago. Yea Jadzia being a bit of a hedonist was a fine character choice that made sense with the character’s background. I just think the pairing with Worf especially was bad in a way the show never really seemed to actually get. Like, the only justification seemed to be “well, we know Dax likes Klingons”, but Worf is such a stick in the mud compared to basically any other Klingon on the show. |
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Post by sarapen on Jul 8, 2021 20:27:26 GMT -5
I wonder if Farrell made more money working in Ted Danson's diner. Although now that I look into it, apparently she also didn't stay in that show.
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Post by liebkartoffel on Aug 14, 2021 21:26:22 GMT -5
Evidently the Cardassians have reappeared in LDS. As I find the show super-annoying, despite being well thought-out in general, does anyone have a take on how they were used? From what I’ve seen there was basically a homage to David Warner’s interrogation room and that’s the main screen so I’ve seen. What happens to Cardassia post-Dominion is one of those thingsI’ve been both really interested in and without confidence how it will be pulled off. Based on the screenshot it basically looks like stasis from the TNG/early DS9 era. The Cardassian shown in the promotional material was only part of the protagonist's holodeck simulation, so Cardassia's true post-Dominion War situation remains unclear. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Aug 15, 2021 2:46:02 GMT -5
Evidently the Cardassians have reappeared in LDS. As I find the show super-annoying, despite being well thought-out in general, does anyone have a take on how they were used? From what I’ve seen there was basically a homage to David Warner’s interrogation room and that’s the main screen so I’ve seen. What happens to Cardassia post-Dominion is one of those thingsI’ve been both really interested in and without confidence how it will be pulled off. Based on the screenshot it basically looks like stasis from the TNG/early DS9 era. The Cardassian shown in the promotional material was only part of the protagonist's holodeck simulation, so Cardassia's true post-Dominion War situation remains unclear.
Hmmm, can't decide if that is good or bad. I, too, am very interested to hear about what happened to Cardassia post-Dominion War. So, I'd kind of like to see one of these newer Trek shows at least mention it. However, I also hate the writing for the new Trek shows so maybe I'm happy they aren't touching any DS9 material.
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Post by Hachiman on Aug 17, 2021 21:52:27 GMT -5
Evidently the Cardassians have reappeared in LDS. As I find the show super-annoying, despite being well thought-out in general, does anyone have a take on how they were used? From what I’ve seen there was basically a homage to David Warner’s interrogation room and that’s the main screen so I’ve seen. What happens to Cardassia post-Dominion is one of those thingsI’ve been both really interested in and without confidence how it will be pulled off. Based on the screenshot it basically looks like stasis from the TNG/early DS9 era. The Cardassian shown in the promotional material was only part of the protagonist's holodeck simulation, so Cardassia's true post-Dominion War situation remains unclear. I really had to stop myself from posting Garak's speech at the end of DS9. Seriously though, its crazy that we basically have no new canon information about the galaxy in the aftermath of the Dominion War aside from what little we got from Picard (which really raised more questions than answers). I don't want a lot but at this point it feels like the various shows are trying as much as possible to not tell us anything. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Aug 21, 2021 2:35:35 GMT -5
The Cardassian shown in the promotional material was only part of the protagonist's holodeck simulation, so Cardassia's true post-Dominion War situation remains unclear. I really had to stop myself from posting Garak's speech at the end of DS9. Seriously though, its crazy that we basically have no new canon information about the galaxy in the aftermath of the Dominion War aside from what little we got from Picard (which really raised more questions than answers). I don't want a lot but at this point it feels like the various shows are trying as much as possible to not tell us anything.
I've already said here - a few times - that what we see in ST: Picard honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me as happening only 20 years after the end of DS9. The political state of the universe in PIC seems way out of whack for a galaxy that just beat back the Dominion threat only 20 years prior.
Like, when the Admiral tells Picard that several Federation planets threatened to secede if they helped the Romulans evacuate, I was all, "Fuck them. Let them go!" The Federation wouldn't have beat the Dominion without the Romulans. Like, wtf happened here? According to the show, the Romulan supernova was in 2387. S7 of DS9 happened in 2375. So, with all seriousness here, what the hell happened?? Thanks for the help, Romulans, but you can all just die in a supernova now, we don't give a fuck...? And somehow Picard and Raffi were the only two people who were upset about this Federation policy? That seems beyond ludicrous to me.
Really makes me curious as to whether the Federation just left Cardassia to twist in the wind, with no aid or assistance.
The Romulan collapse left unclaimed, lawless areas of space? So, the Klingons didn't go in and claim that? The Federation didn't? *No one* did?
So, the lesson we learned from the Dominion Invasion is that we should all retreat and become isolationists?
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Post by liebkartoffel on Aug 21, 2021 9:31:12 GMT -5
This week's Lower Decks might have been the best episode yet--a good example of when they nail the balance between plot, slapstick humor, obscure Trek references--Tamarians! Pakleds!--and genuine reverence for what makes Trek Trek. Loved how the Titan storyline was a not-so-subtle dig at Disco and the whole serialized action-Trek ethos, and especially loved the Titan crewman's admission that he joined Star Fleet because he "just really loves beaming stuff."
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Post by Hachiman on Aug 22, 2021 21:06:18 GMT -5
I've already said here - a few times - that what we see in ST: Picard honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me as happening only 20 years after the end of DS9. The political state of the universe in PIC seems way out of whack for a galaxy that just beat back the Dominion threat only 20 years prior.
Like, when the Admiral tells Picard that several Federation planets threatened to secede if they helped the Romulans evacuate, I was all, "Fuck them. Let them go!" The Federation wouldn't have beat the Dominion without the Romulans. Like, wtf happened here? According to the show, the Romulan supernova was in 2387. S7 of DS9 happened in 2375. So, with all seriousness here, what the hell happened?? Thanks for the help, Romulans, but you can all just die in a supernova now, we don't give a fuck...? And somehow Picard and Raffi were the only two people who were upset about this Federation policy? That seems beyond ludicrous to me.
Really makes me curious as to whether the Federation just left Cardassia to twist in the wind, with no aid or assistance.
The Romulan collapse left unclaimed, lawless areas of space? So, the Klingons didn't go in and claim that? The Federation didn't? *No one* did?
So, the lesson we learned from the Dominion Invasion is that we should all retreat and become isolationists?
Let's not forget the unclaimed, lawless areas of space were populated by both Romulan Senators and Federation citizens AND STILL nobody claimed them or offered protection for vague reasons. I guess the show wanted to hint it was a problem of resources but the finale showed that both sides had plenty of resources to spare when they gave a shit. Nothing on the Klingons who would totally be all over pushing some Romulan refugees around. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And I'm still annoyed that they let murderers and double agents walk away free on that show. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Sept 9, 2021 8:16:55 GMT -5
So... how we all feeling about the new trailer for S2 Picard?
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Ben Grimm
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Post by Ben Grimm on Sept 9, 2021 8:27:24 GMT -5
So... how we all feeling about the new trailer for S2 Picard? I feel like it's one of those "swing for the fences" things where we're either going to get a Tapestry out of it or we're going to get a Time's Arrow and I can't tell which. There's the potential for a plot like this to really work, but at the same time, there's the potential for a plot like this to completely fail to work, and, based on the first season, I'm not super-optimistic that they're going to manage getting this to play. That said, the Strange New Worlds teaser thing had me hyped. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Sept 9, 2021 8:45:02 GMT -5
So... how we all feeling about the new trailer for S2 Picard? I feel like it's one of those "swing for the fences" things where we're either going to get a Tapestry out of it or we're going to get a Time's Arrow and I can't tell which. There's the potential for a plot like this to really work, but at the same time, there's the potential for a plot like this to completely fail to work, and, based on the first season, I'm not super-optimistic that they're going to manage getting this to play. That said, the Strange New Worlds teaser thing had me hyped. So an overrated story (sorry I still dont like Tapestry) or a mediocre one. Hmm, quite the dilemma... |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Sept 9, 2021 9:34:51 GMT -5
I feel like it's one of those "swing for the fences" things where we're either going to get a Tapestry out of it or we're going to get a Time's Arrow and I can't tell which. There's the potential for a plot like this to really work, but at the same time, there's the potential for a plot like this to completely fail to work, and, based on the first season, I'm not super-optimistic that they're going to manage getting this to play. That said, the Strange New Worlds teaser thing had me hyped. So an overrated story ( sorry I still dont like Tapestry) or a mediocre one. Hmm, quite the dilemma... whaaaaaaa? |
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Post by Prole Hole on Sept 9, 2021 10:08:39 GMT -5
So an overrated story ( sorry I still dont like Tapestry) or a mediocre one. Hmm, quite the dilemma... whaaaaaaa? Yup. Think it's cheap sentimentalism that does nothing to earn it on its own terms, trite in extreme and poorly written. I dislike almost everything about it, and rank it somewhere near the bottom of the Q stories. The artificial heart (something I know this story didn't introduce) is just a lazy cliche, and this episode's attempt to explain it just feels like lazy retconning that was never actually required.. It's a whacking great reset button even Voyager would be ashamed of (hey, I wonder if Q is really God and if Picard is really dead!). I hate the way Picard talks about "average" Picard in such contemptuous tones when we know Picard is supposed to value everyone's contributions big or small - breaking the character to make a point isn't good writing. It's cheap (yes, this is literally a cheap shot!). Everyone that isn't Picard or Q is a programmatic cypher. Never liked it, never will. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Sept 9, 2021 10:40:21 GMT -5
Yup. Think it's cheap sentimentalism that does nothing to earn it on its own terms, trite in extreme and poorly written. I dislike almost everything about it, and rank it somewhere near the bottom of the Q stories. The artificial heart (something I know this story didn't introduce) is just a lazy cliche, and this episode's attempt to explain it just feels like lazy retconning that was never actually required.. It's a whacking great reset button even Voyager would be ashamed of (hey, I wonder if Q is really God and if Picard is really dead!). I hate the way Picard talks about "average" Picard in such contemptuous tones when we know Picard is supposed to value everyone's contributions big or small - breaking the character to make a point isn't good writing. It's cheap (yes, this is literally a cheap shot!). Everyone that isn't Picard or Q is a programmatic cypher. Never liked it, never will. I guess I could see having that take on Picard's reaction to the "what if" version of himself, but I don't really think it's terribly fair to say it "breaks the character". I never really took it as contempt for being "just" a science officer, but for letting fear and caution deny that version of himself a fulfilling life. That seems perfectly in line with stuff like his relationship with Riker over the years: he's not pushing him off the ship if that's truly where he wants to be, but he's also always kind of watching to make sure it isn't just comfort holding him back from becoming the best/fullest version of himself. In theory, if the plot of the episode had played out that alternate-Picard had, I don't know, left Starfleet to pursue archaeology and was blissfully examining ruins, I don't think he has nearly the same negative reaction, but that's a very different (and kind of dull?) episode. It's the prison-of-his-own-timidness clearly leaving him unhappy that Picard seems to have contempt for, not some lack of rank or importance. Now the whole "I NEVER MADE TIME FOR A FAMILY!!!!" subplot of Generations, there's a breaking of the Picard character. |
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Post by Prole Hole on Sept 9, 2021 11:21:35 GMT -5
Yup. Think it's cheap sentimentalism that does nothing to earn it on its own terms, trite in extreme and poorly written. I dislike almost everything about it, and rank it somewhere near the bottom of the Q stories. The artificial heart (something I know this story didn't introduce) is just a lazy cliche, and this episode's attempt to explain it just feels like lazy retconning that was never actually required.. It's a whacking great reset button even Voyager would be ashamed of (hey, I wonder if Q is really God and if Picard is really dead!). I hate the way Picard talks about "average" Picard in such contemptuous tones when we know Picard is supposed to value everyone's contributions big or small - breaking the character to make a point isn't good writing. It's cheap (yes, this is literally a cheap shot!). Everyone that isn't Picard or Q is a programmatic cypher. Never liked it, never will. I guess I could see having that take on Picard's reaction to the "what if" version of himself, but I don't really think it's terribly fair to say it "breaks the character". I never really took it as contempt for being "just" a science officer, but for letting fear and caution deny that version of himself a fulfilling life. That seems perfectly in line with stuff like his relationship with Riker over the years: he's not pushing him off the ship if that's truly where he wants to be, but he's also always kind of watching to make sure it isn't just comfort holding him back from becoming the best/fullest version of himself. In theory, if the plot of the episode had played out that alternate-Picard had, I don't know, left Starfleet to pursue archaeology and was blissfully examining ruins, I don't think he has nearly the same negative reaction, but that's a very different (and kind of dull?) episode. It's the prison-of-his-own-timidness clearly leaving him unhappy that Picard seems to have contempt for, not some lack of rank or importance. Now the whole "I NEVER MADE TIME FOR A FAMILY!!!!" subplot of Generations, there's a breaking of the Picard character. Oh yes, but then Generations is the worst Star Trek movie. |
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Sept 9, 2021 16:08:03 GMT -5
I am optimistic for Strange New Worlds, excited for Lower Decks, unsure about Picard, and ... did they actually have a new trailer for Discovery S4? Because if they did I missed it.
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Post by liebkartoffel on Sept 9, 2021 16:57:20 GMT -5
I remain decidedly "meh" to "bleurgh" on all non-Lower Decks NuTrek.
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Post by Hachiman on Sept 10, 2021 0:11:33 GMT -5
So... how we all feeling about the new trailer for S2 Picard? It looks like Agnes is back so I guess this means that everyone was totally cool with her murdering that dude? Just forgive and forget? I feel like Star Trek has such a strong theme of justice and order that its hard to swallow that particular oversight on a cast this small. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Sept 11, 2021 18:28:59 GMT -5
So... how we all feeling about the new trailer for S2 Picard?
I just watched it. It greatly decreased my interest in the show. This is simply not what I want from Star Trek. I"m curious to know if it will engage at all with real ideas and make a statement about the world. Or if it will be all this action adventure/violence BS.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Sept 11, 2021 18:33:21 GMT -5
So... how we all feeling about the new trailer for S2 Picard? It looks like Agnes is back so I guess this means that everyone was totally cool with her murdering that dude? Just forgive and forget? I feel like Star Trek has such a strong theme of justice and order that its hard to swallow that particular oversight on a cast this small. I will never be able to reconcile for myself how Agnes is a hero but Narek is the villain in S1. Utterly nonsensical writing.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Sept 14, 2021 14:30:45 GMT -5
lllllllooooooolllllll they hate us so much |
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