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Post by sarapen on Apr 13, 2015 10:32:20 GMT -5
Also forgot to mention that there was a set of Stilt-Man legs at Melvin Potter's workshop. That's probably going to be the only mention of him we'll see since there's no way a concept that ridiculous would ever appear on this show.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Apr 13, 2015 10:42:10 GMT -5
sarapen In spite of people thinking the Avengers are responsible for Hell's Kitchen's present state, it's pretty clear that's not the case - characters like Fisk and Murdock speak of the town always being this way; the only thing the Incident definitely caused was a freefall in the retail market that Fisk's cronies profited from. And Jessica Jones is also the show I'm most interested in going forward. As far as crossovers go... I'm guessing the magical ninja stuff is probably setting up whoever the Bad Guy is going to be in the Defenders miniseries. I could swear that the unseen antagonist was voiced by Keith David. I guess it would be jarring if you were a New Yorker, specifically if you grew up/lived around the real-life Hell's Kitchen, but I don't get why that would be some big criticism of the series. I know this is supposed to be the more "realistic" Marvel series, but it's still set in the larger Marvel Universe, which pretty clearly has an alternate timeline from ours beginning at least with WWII. I'm pretty ok with them saying that the show's New York/Hell's Kitchen is similar to ours, but different and just moving on.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Apr 13, 2015 10:43:18 GMT -5
Also, here's to hoping they write in a scene where Foggy hits some sort of hired goon with Fulton Reed slapshot in season 2!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 10:48:47 GMT -5
I'm curious if any of you are readers of the Daredevil comics and how the show compares to them? I haven't read them in quite some time but even then, Daredevil was mostly cut off from the rest of the other superheroes, barring the occasional visit from Spiderman or the Punisher. Frank Miller's various runs on the book were all far more adult oriented than most of the teen fare that was being put out in nearly every other Marvel comic of the day. I'm interested if this compares well to any of that? Daredevil was always portrayed as having the physical abilities of a top level athlete (but nothing superhuman) along with his extremely heightened senses, other than being blind. Being limited to human physical abilities really limited the villains and other superheroes he could rub shoulders with as he'd get his ass kicked which was kind of cool and made him far more relatable than most other comics characters. I was sick this weekend so I watched all of Daredevil in one day. I'm not a huge fan of DD but I've read a bunch of the comics and I agree with Douay-Rheims-Challoner that the show somehow translated the sensibility of the comics to TV. The consequences of living in a world with superheroes is an unspoken concern for the show and for its characters. It's not quite The Authority in questioning the ability of weirdos in circus costumes to enact positive social changes through fisticuffs, but at times the show kind of hinted in that direction. I was somewhat surprised at the very oblique appearance of mystical Oriental hoodoo. I'd thought that the show was going to be completely grounded in the street level stuff and would be just about DD versus the Kingpin. By the way, Wilson Fisk is never called Kingpin in the show, nor is Leland Owlsley ever referred to as The Owl. Anyway, I assume that this Orientalism is for setting up the Iron Fist kung fu show that's coming later. Perhaps we'll soon see the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven. Finally, I have to wonder just how much Marvel's New York is like the one of our world. The battle in the Avengers couldn't have turned present-day Clinton to this show's Hell's Kitchen no matter how badly the reconstruction was mismanaged. The widespread police corruption, at the very least, couldn't have happened in just a couple of years (one of the cops says 18 months). The only explanation I can come up with is that Fisk was already entwined in the fabric of the city long before aliens invaded. Anyway, I did like the show. I almost never binge watch, so when I do, it's because a show is exactly on my wavelength. If this is what Netflix's Daredevil is like, then I'm looking forward to the rest of the superhero shows that are coming. Personally, it's Jessica Jones that I'm most interested in. The magical ninja stuff is The Hand and was created in Miller's first run on the comics leading up to the introduction of Elektra Natchios, Matt's college girlfriend turned assassin (early 1980s).
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 13, 2015 10:49:55 GMT -5
@sloth I'm guessing the off-hand reference to a Greek girl he pursued in college is meant to be read as an Elektra reference.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Apr 13, 2015 11:52:42 GMT -5
@sloth I'm guessing the off-hand reference to a Greek girl he pursued in college is meant to be read as an Elektra reference. Hell of a coincidence if it's not.
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Post by sarapen on Apr 13, 2015 11:55:49 GMT -5
The magical ninja stuff is The Hand and was created in Miller's first run on the comics leading up to the introduction of Elektra Natchios, Matt's college girlfriend turned assassin (early 1980s). Yeah, I'm aware. Stick plays a big role in one episode, which managed to introduce martial arts mysticism, connect to the season's larger story, but still feel like a self-contained episode. There were references to a war that was separate from DD's struggle against Kingpin which is clearly supposed to be the fight against the Hand.
Actually I think they'll tie together all the kung fu ninja stuff to tighten up the story and this feud will be part of Iron Fist's show. Stone also shows up but for like 1 minute and shown only from the back. I didn't even recognize him until I saw his name in the credits. Further comic book references I'm reading about in the comments of the AVC review: The truck that blinded young Matt was from the Rand Corporation. The heroin is stamped with the symbol of Davos, the Steel Serpent. Atlas Investments, the office across from Nelson & Murdock, may be something to do with Agents of Atlas or is a reference to Marvel Comics' original name. And Melvin Potter is Gladiator. Not the purple superman with the mohawk, the costume designer who was a bad guy and then wasn't.
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Post by tollwaytroll on Apr 16, 2015 11:41:36 GMT -5
So I finished it last night and I still don't really get Kingpin. People here and elsewhere have been saying it's also an origin story for him but he's no more or less evil at the end than he is at the beginning. Plus it's hard to believe that anyone who is so deluded that he could think of himself as a good guy despite brutally murdering several people and ordering the murder of many more as well as being involved in drug and human trafficking would ever have some kind of moment of clarity like he did in the last episode.
Essentially he was a bit too broadly drawn for me. Even though they tried to humanize him with his relationship with Vanessa (who also made very little sense to me) it never added up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 17:07:25 GMT -5
Why does nobody ever ask Daredevil how he can see with his eyes always covered? every person should notice it and assume that he's blind, thus making his identity that much easier to figure out, but nobody ever even acknowledges it and it's driving me crazy
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 16, 2015 18:39:44 GMT -5
@greyhoundzero Yup.I guess one reason people might assume he's not blind is, lack of eyeholes to one side, he acts as if he can see - Daredevil's fantastical not really blindness is part of his secret.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 18:53:07 GMT -5
@greyhoundzero Yup.I guess one reason people might assume he's not blind is, lack of eyeholes to one side, he acts as if he can see - Daredevil's fantastical not really blindness is part of his secret. Can you really put it to the side, though? One thing that all people who can see have in common is that we don't blindfold ourselves before ninja-ing people.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 16, 2015 19:08:01 GMT -5
@greyhoundzero But he clearly does see. Like how he fights and interacts with people is incompatible with an inability to see, he's not Zatoichi. So you're left with someone who can somehow see in spite of his eyes being covered. What the hell is up with that?
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Post by Carade on Apr 16, 2015 22:03:02 GMT -5
Finished the first season. They didn't even use an Evanescence song once.
C-
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Post by silentspy on Apr 17, 2015 10:20:39 GMT -5
While they never refer to Fisk as Kingpin explicitly, I did laugh when Ben literally pinned a king card on the board to represent him.
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 1:19:58 GMT -5
Kinda sorta. He's blind but he's got super heightened other senses. Also, I'm at episode 8 right now. And in the scene where Matt and Urich talk in the rain Charlie Cox's American accent gets MAD sketchy. "super-heightened" to a superhuman level? edit: i'm closer to the end of the season now and he strongly implies that the chemicals gave him super-senses, although the show hasn't yet concerned itself with the whys or hows In the comics - and kind of implied, but never spoke in the show- is that in addition to extraordinarily heightened senses (which allows him to, for example, read printed text because he can feel the ink with his fingers), he's got kind of perfect 360 degree awareness of everything around him. Which is how he can dodge things thrown from behind him, etc.
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 1:22:56 GMT -5
The magical ninja stuff is The Hand and was created in Miller's first run on the comics leading up to the introduction of Elektra Natchios, Matt's college girlfriend turned assassin (early 1980s). Yeah, I'm aware. Stick plays a big role in one episode, which managed to introduce martial arts mysticism, connect to the season's larger story, but still feel like a self-contained episode. There were references to a war that was separate from DD's struggle against Kingpin which is clearly supposed to be the fight against the Hand.
Actually I think they'll tie together all the kung fu ninja stuff to tighten up the story and this feud will be part of Iron Fist's show. Stone also shows up but for like 1 minute and shown only from the back. I didn't even recognize him until I saw his name in the credits. Further comic book references I'm reading about in the comments of the AVC review: The truck that blinded young Matt was from the Rand Corporation. The heroin is stamped with the symbol of Davos, the Steel Serpent. Atlas Investments, the office across from Nelson & Murdock, may be something to do with Agents of Atlas or is a reference to Marvel Comics' original name. And Melvin Potter is Gladiator. Not the purple superman with the mohawk, the costume designer who was a bad guy and then wasn't. Oh, man, what I wouldn't give for an Agents of Atlas show. With Bruce Campbell as Gorilla-Man. (They could even use a comicsy "holographic projector" disguise in-story so they could just have him be Bruce Campbell, rather than Bruce Campbell CGI'd into a gorilla)
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 1:37:03 GMT -5
This show is going to be like Batman Begins all over again, in that basically everyone loves it, except for me, and the things everyone else loves are the things that leave me cold. For example: the grim and grittiness of it. I was happier to leave that to DC, and I have no love for Frank Miller or Miller-esque things. This felt waay too much like Batman, which is a shame.
I don't mind a good fight scene or seven, but I hate the stupid brutality of the show. The "good" torture that goes almost entire unremarked...and when objections are voiced, the show treats them as perfunctory. In addition to being kind of a pet peeve anymore, it's a waste of the character. He's a lawyer who can read people perfectly, well enough to even know when they're lying. Having him resort to just torturing people for answers (in addition to in truth being entirely ineffective, even if you could detect lies) is like having a show about Thor restoring houses. I mean, I suppose there's no reason Thor couldn't star in a fictionalized house-flipper show, but it seems kind of a mismatch. Matt should be pretty good at trying to bait and trap people into saying more than they should, and even better at it since his abilities mean he's able to find the right buttons to hit.
I do agree with the idea that the villain was better developed in some respects. Like they wanted to do some modern prestige anti-hero drama, but then kept remembering that the show is called Daredevil. I was really frustrated by how little they really got into Matt's head (compared to Wilson Fisk). I came out of the show not being sure exactly why Matt was doing what he was doing, or why he was doing it the way he was doing it. What made him go, "I know, I'll break kneecaps?" If they'd gone the more traditional route of having him start out rescuing little old ladies from muggers and various bits of derring do, and THEN he got sucked into the darker side of things as shit went down, okay, it'd be trite but at least it'd be easy to follow his motivations and logic. Here, it's kind of, "?because he likes it? maybe? or...? crime?"
I also think they were way too shy of the superhero stuff (especially in the downplaying of abilities, etc), which made the sudden turn of some of it at the end feel out of place.
I hope to hell they don't go down the same route with the rest of the shows. (Although I'll grant an exception for Jessica Jones.) ANd if this inspires the comics go to back towards the neverending bleakness of previous runs, I'm going to be cross.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 20, 2015 8:05:05 GMT -5
This show is going to be like Batman Begins all over again, in that basically everyone loves it, except for me, and the things everyone else loves are the things that leave me cold. For example: the grim and grittiness of it. I was happier to leave that to DC, I think it was a good choice to go gritty because the Marvel Cinematic Universe feels very tonally one note; and I was particularly worried after the firing of Edgar Wright that this carefully managed note was the only one they were willing to strike... though that may still be true as far as the film franchise is concerned. I mean in around eight years they've made as many MCU movies as were made in over two decades of Star Trek. That that hasn't burned out (especially as Age of Ultron promises More Of The Same, complete with a swarm of generic mook bad guys verses a stacked deck of heroes) is remarkable. Daredevil manages to establish itself as a very different kind of brand in a way that feels applicable to its character. One couldn't see this kind of gritty take working very well for, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy, but it feels a pretty natural direction to take Daredevil.
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Post by Shipwreck on Apr 20, 2015 12:51:35 GMT -5
Am I alone in my theory that SPOILER:
Madame Gao is an Inhuman? The scene where she sends him flying suggests some kind of ability but more than that, when Leland asks her if she's going back to China, she says "much further" or something to that effect.
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Post by Carade on Apr 20, 2015 13:01:11 GMT -5
Am I alone in my theory that SPOILER:
Madame Gao is an Inhuman? The scene where she sends him flying suggests some kind of ability but more than that, when Leland asks her if she's going back to China, she says "much further" or something to that effect.
I think the strongest theory at this point is that Madam Gao is from K'un-Lun and she's setting up the Iron Fist series down the line.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 20, 2015 13:04:55 GMT -5
Shipwreck [spoiler][/spoiler] is your friend. But yeah I'd bet it's what Carade said, because the Netflix shows look like they're going to all tie into each other a lot more tightly than relate to any of the ABC/Movie content (like the Inhumans.) I mean Luke Cage is going to be on Jessica Jones before he's on Luke Cage; apparently. It'll be interesting to see how that works and if we see any Daredevil characters on Jones.
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 14:04:11 GMT -5
Shipwreck [spoiler][/spoiler] is your friend. But yeah I'd bet it's what Carade said, because the Netflix shows look like they're going to all tie into each other a lot more tightly than relate to any of the ABC/Movie content (like the Inhumans.) I mean Luke Cage is going to be on Jessica Jones before he's on Luke Cage; apparently. It'll be interesting to see how that works and if we see any Daredevil characters on Jones. I've heard that the nurse, Claire, is going to be on all of the shows.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 20, 2015 14:19:11 GMT -5
Dr Livingstone Well that's good news because Rosario Dawson seemed seriously underused by Daredevil (did she even appear in more than half the episodes?)
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 14:39:07 GMT -5
Dr Livingstone Well that's good news because Rosario Dawson seemed seriously underused by Daredevil (did she even appear in more than half the episodes?) THat's possibly why she was underused, I heard, because her contract goes across all the shows, so I guess they may be limited on her appearances or something.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 20, 2015 14:45:25 GMT -5
Dr Livingstone That explains the episode where she stitched Matt up offscreen and met Nelson for the first time.
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 14:46:18 GMT -5
This show is going to be like Batman Begins all over again, in that basically everyone loves it, except for me, and the things everyone else loves are the things that leave me cold. For example: the grim and grittiness of it. I was happier to leave that to DC, I think it was a good choice to go gritty because the Marvel Cinematic Universe feels very tonally one note; and I was particularly worried after the firing of Edgar Wright that this carefully managed note was the only one they were willing to strike... though that may still be true as far as the film franchise is concerned. I mean in around eight years they've made as many MCU movies as were made in over two decades of Star Trek. That that hasn't burned out (especially as Age of Ultron promises More Of The Same, complete with a swarm of generic mook bad guys verses a stacked deck of heroes) is remarkable. Daredevil manages to establish itself as a very different kind of brand in a way that feels applicable to its character. One couldn't see this kind of gritty take working very well for, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy, but it feels a pretty natural direction to take Daredevil. I don't know if this kind of gritty really works for Daredevil. I'm not opposed to different tones, darker tones, more pathos or drama or any of that. But there's that certain flavor of grim&gritty (that often masquerades as 'realistic', when it's anything but) that I am extraordinarily sick of, and which leaves me quite cold. (Especially the whole torture thing.) And to think about the same thing applied across all the shows just makes me sad. Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist, for example, wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows, but neither was it an unrelenting onslaught of fetishistic gruesome violence, misery, and nihilism. (not that DD went there exactly, but it certainly teetered on the brink IMO) The thought of stripping all the fun and wonder out of Iron Fist (or Luke Cage, or the inevitable team up) it is quite depressing. I'm not sure the MCU has been all one note, tonally speaking: GoTG, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Agent Carter, have all had quite different vibes. The sameness I see is the fact that they are more and more pushing the plot into the background and replacing it with ever growing amounts of spectacle, which makes the different tones seem shallow.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Apr 20, 2015 15:03:25 GMT -5
Dr Livingstone I wouldn't agrer that the Marvel titles listed have different tones (except Agent Carter, but just because I haven't seen it.) They're all pretty much the same tone in different clothes - Captain America has a bit of Rocketeer in it but shares a tone wih Thor, which has a dash of Lord of the Rings instead. When I saw the movies back in January it all felt a little exhausting (especially for the Iron Man movies.) It blurs together in a third act haze of CGI, MacGuffins and explosions. I don't think Daredevil comes across as realistic or even aping realism; it's as stylised as any of the other Marvel products, but in a way that isn't just gritty, it borrows a kind of 70s New York sensibility and aesthetic. It's got a vivid sense of place, of urban decay, that is as arresting a locale as GotG's spaceways.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Apr 20, 2015 15:07:19 GMT -5
I think it was a good choice to go gritty because the Marvel Cinematic Universe feels very tonally one note; and I was particularly worried after the firing of Edgar Wright that this carefully managed note was the only one they were willing to strike... though that may still be true as far as the film franchise is concerned. I mean in around eight years they've made as many MCU movies as were made in over two decades of Star Trek. That that hasn't burned out (especially as Age of Ultron promises More Of The Same, complete with a swarm of generic mook bad guys verses a stacked deck of heroes) is remarkable. Daredevil manages to establish itself as a very different kind of brand in a way that feels applicable to its character. One couldn't see this kind of gritty take working very well for, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy, but it feels a pretty natural direction to take Daredevil. I don't know if this kind of gritty really works for Daredevil. I'm not opposed to different tones, darker tones, more pathos or drama or any of that. But there's that certain flavor of grim&gritty (that often masquerades as 'realistic', when it's anything but) that I am extraordinarily sick of, and which leaves me quite cold. (Especially the whole torture thing.) And to think about the same thing applied across all the shows just makes me sad. Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist, for example, wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows, but neither was it an unrelenting onslaught of fetishistic gruesome violence, misery, and nihilism. (not that DD went there exactly, but it certainly teetered on the brink IMO) The thought of stripping all the fun and wonder out of Iron Fist (or Luke Cage, or the inevitable team up) it is quite depressing. I'm not sure the MCU has been all one note, tonally speaking: GoTG, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Agent Carter, have all had quite different vibes. The sameness I see is the fact that they are more and more pushing the plot into the background and replacing it with ever growing amounts of spectacle, which makes the different tones seem shallow. I'll remain optimistic that they are going to let each Netflix series be it's own thing until the finished product proves otherwise. From the little I know of the source material, I worry that Jessica Jones could end up being pretty bleak, but both Iron Fist and Luke Cage could have different tones/styles and still work fine as a build up for Defenders. They made it work for all the Avengers movies, why wouldn't they pull it off for the Netflix series?
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Daredevil
Apr 20, 2015 15:29:33 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Shipwreck on Apr 20, 2015 15:29:33 GMT -5
Shipwreck [spoiler][/spoiler] is your friend. But yeah I'd bet it's what Carade said, because the Netflix shows look like they're going to all tie into each other a lot more tightly than relate to any of the ABC/Movie content (like the Inhumans.) I mean Luke Cage is going to be on Jessica Jones before he's on Luke Cage; apparently. It'll be interesting to see how that works and if we see any Daredevil characters on Jones. [br Thanks. I had forgotten how to do that. And that explanation makes a lot of sense.
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Post by Dr Livingstone on Apr 20, 2015 17:05:31 GMT -5
Dr Livingstone I wouldn't agrer that the Marvel titles listed have different tones (except Agent Carter, but just because I haven't seen it.) They're all pretty much the same tone in different clothes - Captain America has a bit of Rocketeer in it but shares a tone wih Thor, which has a dash of Lord of the Rings instead. When I saw the movies back in January it all felt a little exhausting (especially for the Iron Man movies.) It blurs together in a third act haze of CGI, MacGuffins and explosions. I don't think Daredevil comes across as realistic or even aping realism; it's as stylised as any of the other Marvel products, but in a way that isn't just gritty, it borrows a kind of 70s New York sensibility and aesthetic. It's got a vivid sense of place, of urban decay, that is as arresting a locale as GotG's spaceways. The third act blur and explosions exactly what I mean about growing amounts of spectacle at the expense of plot, but I wouldn't exactly describe that as tone. 2/3rds of Thor was some shakespearean vibe and LOTR aesthetic. Two thirds of Captain America (1) was a very retro feel good kind of movie. Two thirds of GoTG was the ol' scifi blockbusters. CA2 was doing its damndest to channel some paranoid 70s spy thriler. Tonally, they're different. It's just getting harder to tell as they increase the number of action set pieces and make them longer. Only 5 minutes of Iron Man is dedicated to the (singular) big action set piece, with a few brief smatterings of actions here and there through the rest of the movie, but nothing particularly on the scale of future movies. By the time you get to CA:2 there are three giant action set pieces. I haven't timed them, but I'd guess they clock in at least 10 minutes each. It's hard to notice everything else against that cacophony. However, you should check out Agent Carter. It is delightful.
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