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Post by WKRP Jimmy Drop on Dec 18, 2015 0:11:17 GMT -5
I mean, I read a theory somewhere that Ford wanted Han Solo to die, it makes sense in the pattern of the narrative, and I was braced so hard for it that my muscles still haven't unwound, but I may just throw up. Can I sue JJ Abrams for my therapy?
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Post by The Thanksgiving Goblin. on Dec 18, 2015 3:26:04 GMT -5
I saw it again last night with my parents and I enjoyed it a bit more surprisingly. I liked that blaster fire and lightsabers made characters bleed in this movie, especially how it tied in with the final duel.
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Post by Celebith on Dec 18, 2015 4:15:03 GMT -5
White text, because where is the spoiler tag? There was a moment when that beat became obvious, and the movie kinda disconnected for us there. It was still good, but we felt like we were watching dominoes fall. Like we could see the beats coming instead of feeling them happen.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 18, 2015 8:38:04 GMT -5
White text, because where is the spoiler tag? Anyway, Yeah, the moment that got me emotionally wasn't Han Solo's death - because there's just that long pause you know it's coming - but that twinkle in his eye when he says "I knew Luke."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 9:41:45 GMT -5
Really liked it. Harrison Ford is a national treasure. I love spaceships. Wanna marry Daisey Ridley. BUT. There were a few line readings by Finn that made me do a scrunchy face, I don't believe for one second that that's the first time Han has used Chewie's bowcaster in 40 years - and When Kylo Ren removed his helmet, revealing Adam Driver, I had to put my hand over my mouth to stifle a laugh. I thought he was poorly cast and didn't do a great job in any scene his helmet was off Also I could've used a bit more information in the crawl, oddly. So, is the Republic just 5 planets? How big is the Order?
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 18, 2015 12:56:23 GMT -5
@supernintendochalmer I did think the film did a bad job explaining What planet the New Order blew up. It's funny because we actually get to see the panicked last moments of that world, but what it is and what the stakes are of losing it are more opaque than the death of Alderaan (where we never visit) in the first movie. According to Reddit the world is Chandrila, the home planet of Mon Mothma and the capital of the New Republic. It's in the Hosnian System, which I guess is where the other exploded worlds are.
Besides Jakku, the film doesn't really establish which planets are which honestly. Took me a while to get that Starkiller Base is also a planet.
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Post by Lone Locust of the Apocalypse on Dec 18, 2015 13:02:10 GMT -5
I honestly thought they had blown up Coruscant as a FU to George.
While Kylo Ren looked less threatening with his mask off, I think that was the point. He isn't Vader, he's just some confused kid.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 13:22:06 GMT -5
I honestly thought they had blown up Coruscant as a FU to George. While Kylo Ren looked less threatening with his mask off, I think that was the point. He isn't Vader, he's just some confused kid. There are lots of ways to play conflicted. For a power-hungry 20-something burgeoning Sith Lord, "petulant tween" doesn't really ring true for me. Also the dude just looks/sounds hilarious. I imagine most people that have seen Girls probably reacted similarly. I think a no-name or some direction that led to less of a "Eddie Redmayne in Jupiter Ascending" vibewould've been better.
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Post by Celebith on Dec 18, 2015 14:39:30 GMT -5
I honestly thought they had blown up Coruscant as a FU to George. While Kylo Ren looked less threatening with his mask off, I think that was the point. He isn't Vader, he's just some confused kid. There are lots of ways to play conflicted. For a power-hungry 20-something burgeoning Sith Lord, "petulant tween" doesn't really ring true for me. Also the dude just looks/sounds hilarious. I imagine most people that have seen Girls probably reacted similarly. I think a no-name or some direction that led to less of a "Eddie Redmayne in Jupiter Ascending" vibewould've been better. We lost it a bit at that point, too. But, to be fair, he did look a lot like Anakin .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 15:27:17 GMT -5
There is a lot to unpack here. I really liked the movie, loved even. I was nearly brought to joyful tears a few times throughout the film. Buuuuut, it felt really safe. Of course Kylo Ren is son to Han and Leia, of course JJ abrams did a lot of retreads from the original trilogy, of course there isn't a death star but a death planet. Of course Han dies. I hate that a mainstays character death isn't shocking, but the expected route now. I kinda wish Abrams bucked it and just kept Han alive. Also, for actually borrowing quite a bit from the EU, you couldn't call Ben Jacen? Jacen Solo is a better name, not to mention if anyone was going to have a kid named ben it would be Luke. Leia never actually met the dude, and Han barely talked to him(to be fair Luke didn't either, but it is Luke who had the ghost show up a lot).
And I will agree with previous sentiments that the movie didn't really do a good job of establishing the resistance vs the new order. If anything it seems like the empire grew a whole lot stronger after the defeat of the emperor while the rebellion became smaller. It feels like the resistance is maybe 50 people.
I do really like Kylo Ren as a villain, and while he does work better with the mask on. I think him being a conflicted 20 something works. And for as stupid as a lightsaber with a hilt seems, it worked. It felt like there was actual weight to the saber that made it more dangerous and unstable, it was more akin to a great sword.
And I don't really like the way they took the force, while the prequels took it one way, here it took it the complete opposite. All Rey has to do is close her eyes and think for a second and she becomes powerful enough to fight like a master jedi for a few minutes? Not buying it, also the dream sequence when she touched the lightsaber did feel out of place.
I did like Snoke and especially Hux. I'm really hoping Snoke is as big as he seems, the safe route of course is that he is actually small like Yoda, like DRC mentioned. But him actually being that big would be something cool and a bit unexpected even if we have seen him as a big hologram. Since it is a hologram most people probably are thinking something isn't quite right with him being that big, so it staying the same would be somewhat of a surprise. And Hux is great, even if he isn't thrawn.
It was cool to see Ackbar and Nien Nunb back, but where the fuck is Lando?
Poe is the best, but sadly his role was about as big as I expected going into this. I really hope he gets more to do in the sequel and the new trio actually becomes the new trio instead of Finn jumping back and forth between Rey and Poe.
In the end it was actually better than I expected and I really liked it, but Abrams couldn't shed all of his problems as a director(being safe, and reusing old ideas). Oh yeah, the score was really disappointing. Of course the old stuff was great, but there was nothing new that stood out or I can even remember. It did sound like star wars music, but in a generic way.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 18, 2015 15:35:07 GMT -5
If anything it seems like the empire grew a whole lot stronger after the defeat of the emperor while the rebellion became smaller. It feels like the resistance is maybe 50 people. Well there's the First Order, the Resistance and the New Republic. The last wasn't a combatant in the film, but the New Order felt that the New Republic was responsible for the Resistance within their territory, which is why they blew up those New Republic worlds with Starkiller Base.
So we kind of have a situation similar to the detente between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant in the Expanded Universe, but our story is set entirely inside Imperial space to parallel the narrative as closely as possible to the OT - the hard won successes of the OT exist offscreen somewhere while we're in Space North Korea where General Hux is talking about how the New Republic lies about them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 15:41:30 GMT -5
If anything it seems like the empire grew a whole lot stronger after the defeat of the emperor while the rebellion became smaller. It feels like the resistance is maybe 50 people. Well there's the New Order, the Resistance and the New Republic. The last wasn't a combatant in the film, but the New Order felt that the New Republic was responsible for the Resistance within their territory, which is why they blew up those New Republic worlds with Starkiller Base.
So we kind of have a situation similar to the detente between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant in the Expanded Universe, but our story is set entirely inside Imperial space to parallel the narrative as closely as possible to the OT - the hard won successes of the OT exist offscreen somewhere while we're in Space North Korea where General Hux is talking about how the New Republic lies about them.
Okay, yeah, that's a bit better but at the same time if the new order has enough resources and power to make the Death Planet and just wipe out the new republic in an instant, seems like they should have won this war already, even if that was the first time firing it. Also, the new republic fucking sucks then if it isn't helping back the resistance more than it should.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 15:47:41 GMT -5
Apparently Daniel Craig was the stormtrooper who got mind tricked by Rey, nice.
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Invisible Goat
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Post by Invisible Goat on Dec 18, 2015 16:33:44 GMT -5
Sorry this is so scattered, I just walked out
If I didn't have so much self-restraint I would have done a full cheer and fist pump when Rey force-grabbed the lightsaber. Even though I saw it coming from a mile away it was so good.
Wanted more Oscar Isaac but I always want more Oscar Isaac. Ridley was fantastic. And I guess this is minority maybe but I absolutely loved Driver. Thought he had/has a great physical presence and voice, at least with the mask on. (Why did he use the mask anyway? Just Vader idolatry?)
This really just underscores how disastrous the prequels are. Like this isn't rocket science. Everything had a weight to it and when you hold back on CGI it makes the use of it so much more palatable. The creatures Han was smuggling were legitimately gross.
My only qualms have already been covered - confusion about the size/success of the First Order and Resistance, just a tiny bit too much fan-service/callbacks, and I didn't really care for having the whole movie lead up to one second of Luke. What if Hamill dies or something, isn't he old.[/spoil]
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 18, 2015 17:12:39 GMT -5
Invisible Goat Hamill's been filming episode 8 since before TFA premiered. I actually remember the announcement about them returning to Skellig Michael to do so months ago (which is the location in Ireland he's seen at in this movie.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 17:18:55 GMT -5
I just want to say while that Force Awakens is great, I still very much love the prequels and always will. Flaws and all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 17:27:46 GMT -5
I just want to say while that Force Awakens is great, I still very much love the prequels and always will. Flaws and all. I still love TPM, sorta like Clones, and fucking hate Sith.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 17:35:10 GMT -5
I just want to say while that Force Awakens is great, I still very much love the prequels and always will. Flaws and all. I still love TPM, sorta like Clones, and fucking hate Sith. Weirdly enough on my most recent rewatch of Sith(only two weeks ago), I loved it. It used to be my least favorite SW film, but I think it is actually good. It also helps that my opinion on prequel palpatine has changed quite a bit since when I first saw it. 15 year old me was not for an old guy killing windu, and thought his cheesy acting once the latter half of the film came was dumb as fuck. Back then I did actually like the opera scene, and now I love it even more, might be my favorite scene in any of the movies episodes 1 through 7. Surprise surprise, palpatine is actually pretty damn badass for a villain. Also, the prequels brought us both Clone Wars series.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 18, 2015 17:36:04 GMT -5
So long as nobody defends the Ewok movies. I finally watched Caravan of Courage on Wednesday and that stuff is painful.
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Post by Meth Lab Shenanigans on Dec 18, 2015 22:26:55 GMT -5
- it actually was like poetry. It rhymes! - it was absolutely brilliant to make Kylo Ren into a deranged, vaguely pathetic man-child instead of some kind of "even-more-badass-than-Vader" Mary Sue villain. He's way scarier and more interesting that way. And he was exactly how Anakin should have been portrayed. - I suspected what would happen to Han. It still felt like being hit by a truck. I haven't been genuinely shaken by a fictional death like that since Dumbledore.
When Kylo Ren removed his helmet, revealing Adam Driver, I had to put my hand over my mouth to stifle a laugh. I thought he was poorly cast and didn't do a great job in any scene his helmet was off I loved how anticlimactic that reveal was, and I think it fits with the character. He's pathetic. He's not a badass, he's an emotionally-stunted dork who happens to have extraordinary power and severe rage issues. To me, that's a way more interesting way to play him than as a genuinely cool Vader 2.0. He's a bully with a chip on his shoulder, the sort of guy who was always picked on as a kid and resents it so deeply that he'll throw a tantrum and throw things around the room if he thinks you've slighted him, or who will scream at his girlfriend for hours on end if she looks at him funny. I thought Adam Driver brought an unnervingly real quality to the character.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 2:37:15 GMT -5
I simply can't believe that Kylo Ren was
the Sarlacc Pit in a mask the entire time.
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Post by Post-Lupin on Dec 19, 2015 6:45:57 GMT -5
Agreeing with the Adam Driver love; since I only saw one ep of Girls, it's far easier for me to take the performance as it stands, and I like what he does here. After a couple of days thought: other than the Xeroxed quality to the whole thing, my main complaint is JJ just doesn't get the Force. Comments about how nerfed Kylo Ren is when needed compared to his higher abilities shown elsewhere are valid. And... Rey suddenly going "oh right, The Force! I should totally try to use that!" in the middle of the lightsaber duel when Kylo mentioned it on the cliff edge... no. Just, no. The visions worked for me, though. Hope they get deep into this next time... especially since a film called The Force Awakens doesn't really show The Force awaken.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Dec 19, 2015 15:05:32 GMT -5
I’m not very enthusiastic about actually seeing the new film, largely because I enjoyed neither my last theatrical Star Wars film nor my last Abrams joint—but I’m still unspoiled wrt the story (I’m replying on an old page of this thread and skipped right to the bottom) and would like to put my guesses here based on Abrams clichés and the trailers for my own future reference (since I probably will end up seeing the movie):
1. There’s some big planet-destroying thing akin to the original Death Star and the red matter from nuTrek, and it will destroy an important planet. Since I doubt they’ll have two desert planets I’m guessing Coruscant, which also serves to make the New Empire or whatever it’s called clearly the dominant power so our heroes are clearly on the underdog side of a civil war. Also, rather than just being a moon it’s a whole planet with its own weather, both explaining why the trailer planet looks kind of tech-y under the snow and fulfilling the requisite Abrams Xtreme quotient.
2. Han Solo gets the blaze of glory Ford wanted for Return of the Jedi, and his enthusiasm in the trailers stems in part from the knowledge that he’ll never have to do this again.
3. Luke’s somehow responsible for Adam Driver, either as a failed Yoda/Obi-Wan figure or because Luke couldn’t keep his lightsaber in his pants and Driver has a grandpa-complex.
4. Lots of destiny talk.
5. Oscar Isaac plays roughly the same role to Boyega as Pike did to Kirk in Trek 2009, and even if Isaac isn’t killed off he’s still tortured (as was Pike, though I don’t think Isaac will get a wheelchair).
Okay, there are my guesses. I’ll revisit them when I actually see the thing or when the plot’s spoiled for me.
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Post by nowimnothing on Dec 19, 2015 16:04:15 GMT -5
I had a couple of small kids with me so I felt the pacing was a bit slow for the first 45 minutes or so. Then it was really off to the races and I was not sure how they were going to fit everything in. Other than the sound of a million fans screaming, I am not sure they needed that last scene. I had very "end of Empire" feeling as they took off and thought they could end it there. Really enjoyed it though. I will have to catch it again when I don't have a 5 year old squirming in my lap. I only cried like a baby a handful of times. I was disappointed there was not more of the original score. Like @matt1 said, the new score didn't really stand out in any way. So Rey is Luke's daughter right? We don't know any other force people than Luke and Leia. That makes her Kylo Ren's cousin. Luke abandoned her after Kylo went Sith, afraid that he would screw her up too. This would neatly parallel what Obi Wan did with Luke.
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Post by Invisible Goat on Dec 19, 2015 16:26:07 GMT -5
So Rey is Luke's daughter right? We don't know any other force people than Luke and Leia. That makes her Kylo Ren's cousin. Luke abandoned her after Kylo went Sith, afraid that he would screw her up too. This would neatly parallel what Obi Wan did with Luke. I hope that's not the case. Of course they've established that Force sensitivity is hereditary, but it doesn't have to all come from the same damn family. Hoping that either her or her parents were part of Luke's group that he was training and they somehow managed to save her from Ren.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Dec 19, 2015 20:23:01 GMT -5
Boy, that was fun! I agree that there's a loooooooot of backstory that needs unpacking about what exactly the situation is. But to some extent I think that's because Abrams is doing his damnedest to re-make New Hope, up to and including the way the universe doesn't really open up until Empire. Also, I'm pretty sure his prime directive with Force Awakens was to steer as far away from exposition as he could, just to prove to people that it was possible for Star Wars to be fun again. Now that we're on board and intrigued by the new players, episode 8 will have a chance to flesh the players out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 20:44:54 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I agree with what seems like a vocal minority in that Force Awakens does feel like a big budget fan film. Keep in mind that I do like this film and have no problem accepting it as canon, but this is an interesting discussion point to me. The prequels for better and worse still felt like "star wars" to me, they very much were in line with the original trilogy even if the quality was not the same. Lucas being at the helm probably had a lot to do with that, which is why even if he has his faults as a screenwriter and director, I will never go too hard on him, because Lucas is still a vital part of many things I love. It is more like an EU novel than a a film that really did move the franchise forward in a different direction. It is a "safe" film, with lots of fan service. It gave fans exactly what they wanted, which is why it is such a fun film to watch. I just wish it did do a bit more in worldbuilding and taking the plot somewhere other than what we the fans "wanted".
JJ Abrams doesn't feel like he is a director with much confidence. He has talent, but as a creative force he is still in the shadows of his influences. Which I guess made him the perfect choice for Force Awakens really. It pulled back in most fans, gave them a fun time, and now it is up to Rian Johnson to knock the dominoes down and do something magnificent.
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Post by nowimnothing on Dec 19, 2015 20:49:07 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I agree with what seems like a vocal minority in that Force Awakens does feel like a big budget fan film. Keep in mind that I do like this film and have no problem accepting it as canon, but this is an interesting discussion point to me. The prequels for better and worse still felt like "star wars" to me, they very much were in line with the original trilogy even if the quality was not the same. Lucas being at the helm probably had a lot to do with that, which is why even if he has his faults as a screenwriter and director, I will never go too hard on him, because Lucas is still a vital part of many things I love. It is more like an EU novel than a a film that really did move the franchise forward in a different direction. It is a "safe" film, with lots of fan service. It gave fans exactly what they wanted, which is why it is such a fun film to watch. I just wish it did do a bit more in worldbuilding and taking taking the plot somewhere other than what we the fans "wanted". JJ Abrams doesn't feel like he is a director with much confidence. He has talent, but as a creative force he is still in the shadows of his influences. Which I guess made him the perfect choice for Force Awakens really. It pulled back in most fans, gave them a fun time, and now it is up to Rian Johnson to knock the dominoes down and do something magnificent. I would agree with that. It is kind of Like Brandon Sanderson finishing The Wheel of Time. It hits all the same beats, but it is almost too satisfying. Too devoted to the source material. I am just happy to get it though, in both cases.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 21:05:43 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I agree with what seems like a vocal minority in that Force Awakens does feel like a big budget fan film. Keep in mind that I do like this film and have no problem accepting it as canon, but this is an interesting discussion point to me. The prequels for better and worse still felt like "star wars" to me, they very much were in line with the original trilogy even if the quality was not the same. Lucas being at the helm probably had a lot to do with that, which is why even if he has his faults as a screenwriter and director, I will never go too hard on him, because Lucas is still a vital part of many things I love. It is more like an EU novel than a a film that really did move the franchise forward in a different direction. It is a "safe" film, with lots of fan service. It gave fans exactly what they wanted, which is why it is such a fun film to watch. I just wish it did do a bit more in worldbuilding and taking taking the plot somewhere other than what we the fans "wanted". JJ Abrams doesn't feel like he is a director with much confidence. He has talent, but as a creative force he is still in the shadows of his influences. Which I guess made him the perfect choice for Force Awakens really. It pulled back in most fans, gave them a fun time, and now it is up to Rian Johnson to knock the dominoes down and do something magnificent. I would agree with that. It is kind of Like Brandon Sanderson finishing The Wheel of Time. It hits all the same beats, but it is almost too satisfying. Too devoted to the source material. I am just happy to get it though, in both cases. I of course am fine with the prequels, so I would have enjoyed this film even if it "sucked" most likely. Just unlike with the prequels where I was a kid on my initial viewings, I am an adult who can now actually delve into the films and give some critical analysis with my first thoughts.
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Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Dec 20, 2015 6:13:10 GMT -5
First impressions:
1. Good script. Aside from some awkward exposition at the start, the characters and situations feel natural. No more 7th grade I, Claudius fanfic.
2. Physicality. The models and props have weight and impact. The actors have sets to interact with. There's a tension watching that I don't remember feeling in any blockbuster film before.
3. The lightsaber duel doesn't feel like some bullshit out of Cirque de Soleil. It's an actual fight.
4. Expanding the Universe: Random gangsters! Creatures! New planets! Protagonists who aren't immediate family! People got upset that Jakku wasn't Tatooine, but it makes total sense here.
5. Negative space: There's room to breathe onscreen. No more Where's Waldo shit.
6. Mechanics: this is a big one. J.J. Abrams is clearly a big fan, because he seems genuinely interested in exploring how this universe works in a way that even the originals didn't. The force can stop energy weapons, etc. It reminded me a bit of Waterworld, except it involved something I actually cared about and have been interested in forever.
7. Actors: I want to single out Daisy Ridley, but it feels unfair to Boyega, Driver, and Isaac, who all did a terrific job. She just had the best part (so far). Hope to see more of Poe in the future. Classic Poe.
8. Did anybody here play Rogue Squadron as a kid? And if so, did any of the space battles feel familiar? Particularly the MISSILE LAUNCHERS OF CERTAIN DEATH?
9. I like how the character dynamics have changed. I feel like Rey and Poe particularly are a kind of mix-and-match of Luke and Han from the originals, so we have un inexperienced idealist who's already very capable, and a wise-ass who's super-dedicated instead of fashionably detached. Finn is a character type we haven't seen at all, and I'm really excited about him as well.
10...9...8-7-6-5-4...3...2– ONE SECOND PLEASE!
11. My biggest issue is Starkiller Base. It's just another Death Star, but it's a planet. The visuals are cool, I guess, but it's really just an excuse for a climax to partly disguise that this is just part one. For that part I like it, it's nice to get a bit of instant gratification in a tentpole franchise, but for the whole planet to go all 2012 at the end was questionable.
Conclusion: Star Wars fans can hold their heads up high once more.
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