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Post by Ben Grimm on Dec 21, 2015 10:56:57 GMT -5
This is probably the thing that most concerns me about JJ, and hopefully will be curtailed in future SW films. The point in Star Trek where Kirk and Spock just happen to be marooned and are able to witness the destruction of Vulcan from some moon apparently about as far away as our moon is to Earth was mind-numbingly dumb (in a movie I otherwise really liked), and How It Should Have Ended pointed out how stupid the "interstellar transporter" idea was in Into Darkness, making starships completely obsolete. To be fair, the Star Wars movies have always been a little light on travel time, especially compared with the Star Wars novels, which frequently talk about how many days or weeks you have to be in hyperspace. What bothers me about this is that it is SUCH an easy fix. Instead of "Rey and Chewie enter hyperspace - cut to shot of Falcon in hyperspace- cut to Falcon exiting hyperspace near Mystery Planet- cut to Rey and Chewie basically with Rey's hand still on the throttle" you could just have an alarm go off and Rey wakes up as the ship exits hyperspace, maybe while Chewie and R2 are idly tinkering with something. Time has passed. Done. That's what makes me think he doesn't even understand it. Lucas didn't make the plot hinge on it or anything, but included enough nods to it to make things seem plausible. Abrams doesn't even seem to understand it enough to throw those little nods in.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 11:11:33 GMT -5
Okay with the releases of lore books and such turns out the planet Starkiller Base blew up wasn't Chandrila after all - it was Hosnian Prime. Apparently, the New Republic rotates the location of the Galactic Senate between planets, and that planet was just unfortunate enough to be the one the Senate was on at the time. I feel like Abrams wanted to blow up Coruscant - both because the planet was the embodiment of what he didn't want in his movie (very consciously set on the 'frontier', as he's said, and away from the 'middle-aged' concerns of the prelogy) and also because as Star Trek fans well know he's more than willing to detonate a well known planet for effect - but Abrams was presumably talked out of it by The Powers That Be who may want Coruscant around in the event they want to use a spectacularly huge city planet at some point in the future. My biggest question is how they got Luke's original lightsaber from Bespin. But considering they could've just used Luke's green saber, I'm betting there's an in-story reason that will be explored. I think there's two reasons they didn't go with Luke's green saber. Firstly, he didn't lose that. For all we know, Luke still has it on him - if we learned he didn't and it was left for some unexplained reason for someone else to pick up, the subtext would be he'd left it behind, which would make the final scene of the movie the most awkward regifting imaginable. Secondly, the blue saber has more history. It wasn't just Luke's saber; it was his father's before him. It was the one Alec Guinness handed over in 1977. If it becomes Rey's, it will have been the weapon of three generations of (probably) Skywalkers - and like the original trilogy, probably one she wields until she crafts her own lightsaber.
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Post by pairesta on Dec 21, 2015 12:08:58 GMT -5
OK, a few further thoughts on Kylo Ren from a very casual fan influenced by her superfan husband. At first when he took his mask off I was like "but ... he's so not intimidating looking". Like, Adam Driver just looked ... well, like young Anakin, sort of. I realized, though, that it was purposeful. Kylo throws temper tantrums. He doesn't have full control or finesse with the force. He's powerful, but petulant, and nobody in the order seems to fear him. So yeah, young, immature looking Adam Driver works for that. I realize this is the point of the character, it just stretches probability that he'd be that high up in the First Order then. Like, why put up with him? Also he totally de-powered throughout the movie. When he was first introduced he stopped a blaster bolt in midair. Even Vader couldn't do that. By the end of the movie he's barely able to hold his ground against an untrained and nonForce sensitive Finn. It'd been better if he was just some random third party, not even part of the First Order, that makes his move in the third act and fucks up things for both parties. (Not attacking you or this perspective, I just have a huge problem with how it was written)
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Post by pairesta on Dec 21, 2015 12:16:57 GMT -5
I think there's two reasons they didn't go with Luke's green saber. Firstly, he didn't lose that. For all we know, Luke still has it on him - if we learned he didn't and it was left for some unexplained reason for someone else to pick up, the subtext would be he'd left it behind, which would make the final scene of the movie the most awkward regifting imaginable. Secondly, the blue saber has more history. It wasn't just Luke's saber; it was his father's before him. It was the one Alec Guinness handed over in 1977. If it becomes Rey's, it will have been the weapon of three generations of (probably) Skywalkers - and like the original trilogy, probably one she wields until she crafts her own lightsaber. So, forgive me if this has been discussed behind spoiler text elsewhere, but is this all part of setting up Rey to be Luke's daughter? They very pointedly set it up as being in the Skywalker family and that it "called to her". Also there were two scenes where peripheral characters thought Rey was significant, but then cut away before explaining what that was. Of course this could all be a setup making us be led to believe Rey is Luke's daughter but then have it be some other (probably dumber) twist.
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Dec 21, 2015 12:18:26 GMT -5
OK, a few further thoughts on Kylo Ren from a very casual fan influenced by her superfan husband. At first when he took his mask off I was like "but ... he's so not intimidating looking". Like, Adam Driver just looked ... well, like young Anakin, sort of. I realized, though, that it was purposeful. Kylo throws temper tantrums. He doesn't have full control or finesse with the force. He's powerful, but petulant, and nobody in the order seems to fear him. So yeah, young, immature looking Adam Driver works for that. I realize this is the point of the character, it just stretches probability that he'd be that high up in the First Order then. Like, why put up with him? Also he totally de-powered throughout the movie. When he was first introduced he stopped a blaster bolt in midair. Even Vader couldn't do that. By the end of the movie he's barely able to hold his ground against an untrained and nonForce sensitive Finn. It'd been better if he was just some random third party, not even part of the First Order, that makes his move in the third act and fucks up things for both parties. (Not attacking you or this perspective, I just have a huge problem with how it was written) Thoughts: maybe he got that high up because of his potential and relation to Darth Vader? Also, aren't force powers influenced by emotion? he was feeling the pull of the light side, he was conflicted and whiny and maybe the point was to show that while he has great potential, he's not fully in control of his powers nor well-trained on how to use them. Spitballing here, though.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 12:51:22 GMT -5
So, forgive me if this has been discussed behind spoiler text elsewhere, but is this all part of setting up Rey to be Luke's daughter? I assumed the movie had all but said she was his daughter to the point I was later surprised people weren't sure. (The off-the-wall theory she's somehow Kenobi's spawn is interesting, as two of the voices she hears when she picks up the lightsaber are Ewan McGregor - who recorded new lines for the bit - and Alec Guinness - who had a line he'd said altered by sound nerds to make it sound like he was saying "Rey.") Another wild theory is that not only is Mara Jade re-canonized as Rey's mother, Felicity Jones is playing her in Rogue One.
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Dec 21, 2015 12:57:06 GMT -5
So, forgive me if this has been discussed behind spoiler text elsewhere, but is this all part of setting up Rey to be Luke's daughter? I assumed the movie had all but said she was his daughter to the point I was later surprised people weren't sure. (The off-the-wall theory she's somehow Kenobi's spawn is interesting, as two of the voices she hears when she picks up the lightsaber are Ewan McGregor - who recorded new lines for the bit - and Alec Guinness - who had a line he'd said altered by sound nerds to make it sound like he was saying "Rey.") It's not directly spelled out - there's enough fudge room there that they could just say she's a very force-sensitive girl, although I think her parentage is definitely important somehow. But Luke's lightsaber called to her and she had that pilot helmet on in the one scene. I actually was pondering the "maybe she's also Han and Leia's daughter" idea, since that had been an early fan favorite speculation. But they knew Kylo (Ben) existed, so they would know her, logic dictates. But you might also think that, were she Luke's daughter, Han or Leia would have also known Rey existed. Maybe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 13:02:26 GMT -5
Quick note on Anakin's lightsaber - The Thrawn novels established that it (along with Luke's severed hand) were found on Bespin.
Obviously the rest of this story is Legends now (thank God for that at least, the whole "clone of Luke named Luuke" was one of the weakest parts of the Thrawn trilogy), but again, there's a precedent.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 13:03:09 GMT -5
I realize this is the point of the character, it just stretches probability that he'd be that high up in the First Order then. Like, why put up with him? Also he totally de-powered throughout the movie. When he was first introduced he stopped a blaster bolt in midair. Even Vader couldn't do that. By the end of the movie he's barely able to hold his ground against an untrained and nonForce sensitive Finn. It'd been better if he was just some random third party, not even part of the First Order, that makes his move in the third act and fucks up things for both parties. (Not attacking you or this perspective, I just have a huge problem with how it was written) Thoughts: maybe he got that high up because of his potential and relation to Darth Vader? Also, aren't force powers influenced by emotion? he was feeling the pull of the light side, he was conflicted and whiny and maybe the point was to show that while he has great potential, he's not fully in control of his powers nor well-trained on how to use them. Spitballing here, though. He is high up there because other than Luke he is the highest powered force user in the galaxy? Luke was training him, but he turned on him and now Snoke is trying to use Ren to try and take out Luke because no one else is capable of it? Or at least has the potential. Also, I just try to think that the blaster shot really fucked him up bad before the final battle, because if not that then the whole final battle is dumb. Because it totally nerfs our main threat for the trilogy, that an untrained Finn and Rey can get the better of him for the most part. Because that battle kinda saps the tension away from the next two, with training of course rey should kick his ass if she can already kick his ass untrained. The planet breaking apart felt more like it saved ren instead of saving rey. Also, Ren being so emotionally conflicted and prone to just flip his shit is what makes him a dangerous villain in my mind. He is unstable, you can't predict that, and he could totally fuck shit up. He has enough raw power and emotion that it makes him capable of doing anything at anytime.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 13:12:11 GMT -5
As far as Rey being the daughter of Luke, of course it is a strong possibility. It is the likely outcome, but I hope it isn't. That is just dumb to basically pull the same "twist"(I use twist loosely, because was anyone really surprised at Kylo Ben?) two movies in a row. If she was his daughter then they should have just gotten it out of the way in this film. Why can't Rey just be the damned chosen one all over again, without being blood related?
Also, BEN IS SUCH A DUMB NAME, IT WASN'T EVEN THE REAL FUCKING NAME OF OBI-WAN. YOUR SON ISN'T NAMED AFTER A POWERFUL JEDI, BUT SOME RANDOM OLD SAND HOBO.
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Post by pairesta on Dec 21, 2015 13:22:16 GMT -5
Quick note on Anakin's lightsaber - The Thrawn novels established that it (along with Luke's severed hand) were found on Bespin. Obviously the rest of this story is Legends now (thank God for that at least, the whole "clone of Luke named Luuke" was one of the weakest parts of the Thrawn trilogy), but again, there's a precedent. I do have a theory that this Snoake guy is a Luke clone warped by the Emperor.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Dec 21, 2015 13:30:42 GMT -5
My guesses at this point on Snoke:
1. He may be one of the Emperor's advisers we briefly saw in Jedi, or someone else from that cadre. They were never really explained in-canon, but there's every possibility that they were force-sensitive.
2. He may be an apprentice being trained by Palpatine (or, much less likely, Vader) when the Empire fell, who stepped in on his own. He could also be a pre-Vader apprentice who failed Palpatine and was left for dead but survived.
3. He's actually the student who turned on Luke's other pupils. Ren was one of the other pupils and survived because he sided with Snoke. The main problem there is that it means the First Order is only about 15 years old. Also, it means that Snoke is much younger than he looks, and that Luke probably messed him up. If this is the case, Rey is probably the only other surviving student, either stashed by Snoke as a backup plan in case he lost Ren, or stashed by Luke when he went into hiding. She may or may not be a Skywalker; she could also be Snoke's daughter.
4. He's a pre-Palpatine Sith who's been biding his time for decades, maybe centuries.
5. He's a surviving Jedi who turned bad at some point; he might even be one we've seen before.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 13:46:30 GMT -5
If she was his daughter then they should have just gotten it out of the way in this film. Why can't Rey just be the damned chosen one all over again, without being blood related? If she was Luke's daughter no way would they have openly stated it in a movie where Luke has no lines. That moment is going to be her and him. 4. He's a pre-Palpatine Sith who's been biding his time for decades, maybe centuries. This is one of the most popular theories - that Snoke is Darth Plagueis the Wise. Currently, the only canon source on Darth Plagueis is Palpatine's cryptic story in Revenge of the Sith: It's been assumed (and then confirmed in the now not-canon EU) that Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and that therefore Palpatine killed him, but we know neither of these things. The belief Snoke is Plagueis - beyond Plagueis being one of the few Sith-related loose ends in any of the movies - is that Snoke is briefly referred to as 'very wise.' On the other hand McDiarmid's delivery strongly implies he did off Darth Plagueis, and if the guy was alive (and why would he hide his death anyhow), what was he doing waiting around so long pulling strings from the sidelines for decades for? Another theory I've heard is that Snoke was, like Kylo, one of Luke's disciples (or perhaps someone Luke found on his search for Jedi ruins), and his disfiguring wound may be from Luke attacking him, but as he had once been a disciple or a friend or something Luke refused to kill him as he'd refused to kill his father. I dunno.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 13:57:13 GMT -5
It's been assumed (and then confirmed in the now not-canon EU) that Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and that therefore Palpatine killed him, but we know neither of these things. The belief Snoke is Plagueis - beyond Plagueis being one of the few Sith-related loose ends in any of the movies - is that Snoke is briefly referred to as 'very wise.' On the other hand McDiarmid's delivery strongly implies he did off Darth Plagueis, and if the guy was alive (and why would he hide his death anyhow), what was he doing waiting around so long pulling strings from the sidelines for decades for? Another theory I've heard is that Snoke was, like Kylo, one of Luke's disciples (or perhaps someone Luke found on his search for Jedi ruins), and his disfiguring wound may be from Luke attacking him, but as he had once been a disciple or a friend or something Luke refused to kill him as he'd refused to kill his father. I dunno. I doubt that, because both RotS and the EU stuff confirmed that Plagueis was killed, and Disney seems more likely to keep stuff related to the Prequels and the Clone Wars era as canon.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 14:01:02 GMT -5
I doubt that, because both RotS and the EU stuff confirmed that Plagueis was killed, and Disney seems more likely to keep stuff related to the Prequels and the Clone Wars era as canon. More to the point they seem eager to just avoid it entirely, at least for the sequel trilogy. Force Awakens is at pains to delineate the nature of the dark Side from the Sith (mostly through Maz Kanata, who talks of evil progressing from the Sith to the Empire to the First Order today) so whatever the Knights of Ren are, and whoever Snoke is, it may have nothing at all to do with that whole deal.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 14:11:34 GMT -5
Has been confirmed that Snoke is for sure a force user? I think I would rather him be someone who has knowledge of the force, but he isn't actually force sensitive, that would make for an interesting dynamic. Also, if he is as big as he is without being powered by the force, he is still a formidable opponent in a fight. Then again I also was hoping Kylo Ren was really just a no name who never had any training in the force and everything was self taught, but that was all based off his lightsaber being crudely made.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 14:18:28 GMT -5
Has been confirmed that Snoke is for sure a force user? Yes, that's been from some of the encyclopedia whatevers. Our ancient non-Force user quotient has been taken by Maz Kanata, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 14:25:08 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot to comment about the CG. The CG was really damn good in my opinion. But after watching the original trilogy in the last few weeks, I just strongly prefer the use of models for the space scenes and battles. I know you can't do everything with models that CG can do, but something about the models just gives it a more lifelike feeling.
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Dec 21, 2015 14:34:44 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot to comment about the CG. The CG was really damn good in my opinion. But after watching the original trilogy in the last few weeks, I just strongly prefer the use of models for the space scenes and battles. I know you can't do everything with models that CG can do, but something about the models just gives it a more lifelike feeling. A LOT of this was actual models and practical effects. I mean, I'm sure there was more CGI than the original trilogy, but a lot less than the prequels.
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Post by Ben Grimm on Dec 21, 2015 14:40:50 GMT -5
A really weird idea that just occurred to me (not that I think it's true): What if Snoke is actually Anakin's father? That would give him an interest in Luke, Ren, and possibly Rey (depending on Rey's parentage). I don't think that's case, but that's just about the only reveal that wouldn't be at least a little anti-climactic. Granted, I'm not sure "stupid" is better.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 14:45:24 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot to comment about the CG. The CG was really damn good in my opinion. But after watching the original trilogy in the last few weeks, I just strongly prefer the use of models for the space scenes and battles. I know you can't do everything with models that CG can do, but something about the models just gives it a more lifelike feeling. A LOT of this was actual models and practical effects. I mean, I'm sure there was more CGI than the original trilogy, but a lot less than the prequels. Im talking just about the space/ship battles which leaned towards CG. Like when the falcon was going through the star destroyer.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 14:52:40 GMT -5
A really weird idea that just occurred to me (not that I think it's true): What if Snoke is actually Anakin's father? Given Palpatine was almost Luke's father (note Plagueis' 'life making' force abilities apparently Palpy was to use them) this doesn't seem impossible to me. But I just feel like Snoke isn't someone who will be explained with reference to the prequel trilogy - but I guess we'll see.
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Post by Pedantic Editor Type on Dec 21, 2015 15:46:14 GMT -5
A random but Star Wars related tidbit - while checking out at the store the other day, I overheard a cashier say to a customer "May the Force Be With You," and the customer replied "And also with you".
I laughed and wondered if the customer was Catholic...
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Post-Lupin
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Post by Post-Lupin on Dec 21, 2015 17:40:41 GMT -5
A random but Star Wars related tidbit - while checking out at the store the other day, I overheard a cashier say to a customer "May the Force Be With You," and the customer replied "And also with you". I laughed and wondered if the customer was Catholic...
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Post-Lupin
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Post by Post-Lupin on Dec 21, 2015 17:45:30 GMT -5
If she was his daughter then they should have just gotten it out of the way in this film. Why can't Rey just be the damned chosen one all over again, without being blood related? If she was Luke's daughter no way would they have openly stated it in a movie where Luke has no lines. That moment is going to be her and him. 4. He's a pre-Palpatine Sith who's been biding his time for decades, maybe centuries. This is one of the most popular theories - that Snoke is Darth Plagueis the Wise. Currently, the only canon source on Darth Plagueis is Palpatine's cryptic story in Revenge of the Sith: It's been assumed (and then confirmed in the now not-canon EU) that Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and that therefore Palpatine killed him, but we know neither of these things. The belief Snoke is Plagueis - beyond Plagueis being one of the few Sith-related loose ends in any of the movies - is that Snoke is briefly referred to as 'very wise.' On the other hand McDiarmid's delivery strongly implies he did off Darth Plagueis, and if the guy was alive (and why would he hide his death anyhow), what was he doing waiting around so long pulling strings from the sidelines for decades for? Another theory I've heard is that Snoke was, like Kylo, one of Luke's disciples (or perhaps someone Luke found on his search for Jedi ruins), and his disfiguring wound may be from Luke attacking him, but as he had once been a disciple or a friend or something Luke refused to kill him as he'd refused to kill his father. I dunno. We saw in the prequels that excess Dark Side blowback causes premature aging...
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Dec 21, 2015 17:50:32 GMT -5
So, forgive me if this has been discussed behind spoiler text elsewhere, but is this all part of setting up Rey to be Luke's daughter? I assumed the movie had all but said she was his daughter to the point I was later surprised people weren't sure. (The off-the-wall theory she's somehow Kenobi's spawn is interesting, as two of the voices she hears when she picks up the lightsaber are Ewan McGregor - who recorded new lines for the bit - and Alec Guinness - who had a line he'd said altered by sound nerds to make it sound like he was saying "Rey.") Another wild theory is that not only is Mara Jade re-canonized as Rey's mother, Felicity Jones is playing her in Rogue One. Rey doesn't look like she's in her thirties, though, and wouldn't she have to be that old to be Obi-Wan's kid barring some stupid twist? And the main reason I'd kind of hope Rey isn't Luke's daughter is that this would be such a telegraphed twist that everyone is going to be anticipating for the next two years or whatever that nobody's going to find it the least bit surprising, especially if Abrams is trying to set it up to somehow mirror the reveal that Vader was Luke's father in Episode V.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Dec 21, 2015 18:04:05 GMT -5
Roy Batty's Pet Dove Abrams is done. Rian Johnson will be doing the next one, so we may move away from his love of reference. Post-Lupin According to the concept artist for Snoke they designed him to suggest he was once beautiful but has become pale and twisted by his long corruption.
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Post by Post-Lupin on Dec 21, 2015 18:05:50 GMT -5
was once beautiful but has become pale and twisted by... long corruption. Your Mum
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on Dec 21, 2015 18:11:54 GMT -5
Roy Batty's Pet Dove Abrams is done. Rian Johnson will be doing the next one, so we may move away from his love of reference. Post-Lupin According to the concept artist for Snoke they designed him to suggest he was once beautiful but has become pale and twisted by his long corruption. How much did Abrams have to do with developing the plot of this trilogy? Like, it's not like he only had creative input in VII and he's just like "alright, Johnson et. al., it's 100% up to you now to decide what the deal is with Rey's parentage, how Luke fucked up with Kylo Ren's training, what exactly the Resistance, Republic and First Order are in relation to each other, etc.", right?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 18:15:35 GMT -5
Okay, does anyone have a link to a pic of what Snoke actually looks like in the film yet? I've only seen concept art that is apparently not accurate.
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