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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Feb 20, 2023 15:02:02 GMT -5
I feel like S1 was about as good as a Trek show could fit into the one small civilian ship of outcasts formula. I also give it credit for going weird, but there was a hell of a lot wrong with it.
I’m honestly surprised they continued with the same group, at least in its entirety, past the fist season. A lot of their arcs seemed pretty complete, I don’t get the impression any of them were especially beloved, and we’re in the twenty-fist century, we’re not bound by the requirements of the past. I guess there’s some advantage in keeping sets like La Sirena—which I do admittedly like—around but again if there’s something Trek is good at it’s redressing).
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Feb 22, 2023 17:07:25 GMT -5
My co-worker, in reference to finally securing the fundraising goal we've been working towards since I started in 2021, said it had been a long road and I just barely caught myself before breaking into "Faith of the Heart".
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 2, 2023 13:27:56 GMT -5
Running a little behind, but Picard S2 was mostly fine except for the Raffi bits. Raffi's just the worst. Nice entrance for... you know who but still.
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 2, 2023 14:36:30 GMT -5
Running a little behind, but Picard S2 was mostly fine except for the Raffi bits. Raffi's just the worst. Nice entrance for... you know who but still. Having not watched Picard (yet!) I will enjoy believing that Raffi is a beloved Federation children's entertainer with a hit song about the time Kirk and Spock saved the whales. |
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Post by haysoos on Mar 3, 2023 15:54:37 GMT -5
Running a little behind, but Picard S2 was mostly fine except for the Raffi bits. Raffi's just the worst. Nice entrance for... you know who but still. Having not watched Picard (yet!) I will enjoy believing that Raffi is a beloved Federation children's entertainer with a hit song about the time Kirk and Spock saved the whales. This made me curious about what Raffi is up to these days, and it turns out he's on tour right now! Saturday, March 4, 2023, 2:00 PM – Queen Elizabeth Theatre, Vancouver B.C. Sunday, March 5, 2023, 2:00 PM – Royal Theatre, Victoria, B.C. Saturday, April 29, 2023, 2:00 PM – Centre in the Square, Kitchener, ON Sunday, April 30, 2023, 2:00 PM – Massey Hall, Toronto, ON Saturday, May 6, 2023, 1:00 PM – Capitol Centre for the Arts, Concord, NH Sunday, May 7, 2023, 2:00 & 7:00 PM – Orpheum Theatre, Boston, MA Saturday, June 17, 2023, 2:00 PM – Northern Alberta Jubilee, Edmonton, AB Sunday, June 18, 2023, 2:00 PM – Southern Alberta Jubilee, Calgary, AB Saturday, September 23, 2023, 2:00 PM – Paramount Theatre, Seattle, WA Sunday, September 24, 2023, 2:00 PM – Keller Auditorium, Portland, OR We already have plans for my cousin's 50th birthday the weekend he's in Edmonton and Calgary though. |
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Mar 10, 2023 12:36:46 GMT -5
This week's episode was pretty well done. Nice "everyone working together as a team to solve a problem" one. Even the asshole! Vadic is a changeling too, eh? Interesting! I loved Riker using the tractor beam rock-thrower on the Shrike like they did to throw the Crushers' ship at the Titan before. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 11, 2023 0:32:42 GMT -5
There're Changelings in this season? How'd they get to the Alpha Quadrant? Did the wormhole aliens let them through? Or has enough time passed that they could come the long way?
Or have the writers not thought about this and just thought, "hey, Changelings were a fun villain, let's do that again?"
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 11, 2023 19:31:18 GMT -5
Or have the writers not thought about this
We all know this is it (I give PIC S1 credit for being the best “small ship of misfits in a fallen universe”-type show you can probably do in the Trek universe but after S2 I’m really burned out on the whole thing).
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 12, 2023 1:55:45 GMT -5
Or have the writers not thought about this
We all know this is it (I give PIC S1 credit for being the best “small ship of misfits in a fallen universe”-type show you can probably do in the Trek universe but after S2 I’m really burned out on the whole thing).
I, for sure, suspected that this was it, because I think if they'd actually thought about it and dealt with the circumstances surrounding the end of the Dominion War and WHY the Dominion lost and the Changelings had to admit defeat, it would be incredibly hard to explain how Changelings are even present in the Alpha Quadrant.
It wouldn't be hard to come up with MOTIVES for why the Changelings would still be angry about what happened. There's just the issue of travel through the wormhole. I'm also dubious that a handful of Changelings can cause too much damage. This concept worked in DS9 because the structure of the universe was so tight, the dominant powers were very strong, and nobody in the Alpha Quadrant had ever dealt with this before. So, they could take everyone by surprise and create a destabilizing effect on the political structure.
In the time period of Picard, I'm not really sure what they could do. Or rather, why the writers would need a Changeling in this story? I'll keep following the recaps, though. I am interested to see what they are trying to do with this.
I don't know... I think I just have to come to terms with the fact that I think more about the setting and timeline than the Trek writers do.
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 13, 2023 6:38:32 GMT -5
There're Changelings in this season? How'd they get to the Alpha Quadrant? Did the wormhole aliens let them through? Or has enough time passed that they could come the long way? Or have the writers not thought about this and just thought, "hey, Changelings were a fun villain, let's do that again?" It's the last one. This season of Picard is so far effortlessly the best but I can't help but feel it also marks the point that Star Trek has given up being about anything other than Star Trek. This isn't a development I'm happy about. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2023 3:37:37 GMT -5
There're Changelings in this season? How'd they get to the Alpha Quadrant? Did the wormhole aliens let them through? Or has enough time passed that they could come the long way? Or have the writers not thought about this and just thought, "hey, Changelings were a fun villain, let's do that again?" It's the last one. This season of Picard is so far effortlessly the best but I can't help but feel it also marks the point that Star Trek has given up being about anything other than Star Trek. This isn't a development I'm happy about. Terry Matalas said "I think it's important that DS9 fans feel seen."
Actually, Terry, I'm good. I'd prefer you not muck around with DS9's characters and story if you don't thoroughly understand them. He says he wants PIC to fit into the DS9 and VOY universe. (This would have been really helpful if you'd considered it in Season 1!)
The problem here is that DS9 has so damn many story elements in play that make up its universe. You can't just pull one element out of the mix and think it will work on another show. Like, I see a Changeling and the first thing I think is, "How the hell did they get to the Alpha Quadrant?" And if you can't explain that, then you don't thoroughly understand DS9. And therefore, I don't trust you to reference it.
Both DSC and PIC have been absolutely TERRIBLE at Trek references. These shows should not be about Star Trek because they can't even get that right! They opt for shallow fan service and name drops without understanding the full context of what they are referencing!
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ABz B👹anaz
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Mar 14, 2023 9:29:13 GMT -5
It's the last one. This season of Picard is so far effortlessly the best but I can't help but feel it also marks the point that Star Trek has given up being about anything other than Star Trek. This isn't a development I'm happy about. Terry Matalas said "I think it's important that DS9 fans feel seen."
Actually, Terry, I'm good. I'd prefer you not muck around with DS9's characters and story if you don't thoroughly understand them. He says he wants PIC to fit into the DS9 and VOY universe. (This would have been really helpful if you'd considered it in Season 1!)
The problem here is that DS9 has so damn many story elements in play that make up its universe. You can't just pull one element out of the mix and think it will work on another show. Like, I see a Changeling and the first thing I think is, "How the hell did they get to the Alpha Quadrant?" And if you can't explain that, then you don't thoroughly understand DS9. And therefore, I don't trust you to reference it.
Both DSC and PIC have been absolutely TERRIBLE at Trek references. These shows should not be about Star Trek because they can't even get that right! They opt for shallow fan service and name drops without understanding the full context of what they are referencing!
On a related note, the liquid changeling effects in PIC bug the hell out of me. I feel like they made their liquid forms look like Cronenberg-level fleshy goop because someone decided shiny liquid was too low-level CGI, but also didn't consider how weird THAT would be in-universe. (Does the Great Link now also look like an endless ocean of blood with bits of flesh floating in it?) |
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 14, 2023 11:05:21 GMT -5
It's the last one. This season of Picard is so far effortlessly the best but I can't help but feel it also marks the point that Star Trek has given up being about anything other than Star Trek. This isn't a development I'm happy about. Terry Matalas said "I think it's important that DS9 fans feel seen."
Actually, Terry, I'm good. I'd prefer you not muck around with DS9's characters and story if you don't thoroughly understand them. He says he wants PIC to fit into the DS9 and VOY universe. (This would have been really helpful if you'd considered it in Season 1!)
The problem here is that DS9 has so damn many story elements in play that make up its universe. You can't just pull one element out of the mix and think it will work on another show. Like, I see a Changeling and the first thing I think is, "How the hell did they get to the Alpha Quadrant?" And if you can't explain that, then you don't thoroughly understand DS9. And therefore, I don't trust you to reference it.
Both DSC and PIC have been absolutely TERRIBLE at Trek references. These shows should not be about Star Trek because they can't even get that right! They opt for shallow fan service and name drops without understanding the full context of what they are referencing!
Yeah pretty much agree with all of that. See also the really weird reference to Picard fighting the Hirogen. While it is established that the Hirogen have a communications relay that stretches to the Alpha Quadrant in Voyager, it's also destroyed. The Hirogen are great and all, but it's really clear that the reference is just there for Voyager fans to get a tingle of "I recognize something!" rather than it making any sense in actual context (context, of course, being the thing that's entirely absent, since it's presented as Just Another Picard Anecdote). Terrible at Trek references indeed. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2023 11:25:17 GMT -5
On a related note, the liquid changeling effects in PIC bug the hell out of me. I feel like they made their liquid forms look like Cronenberg-level fleshy goop because someone decided shiny liquid was too low-level CGI, but also didn't consider how weird THAT would be in-universe. (Does the Great Link now also look like an endless ocean of blood with bits of flesh floating in it?)
Great question. I'm somewhat dubious on the entire concept that there could be some kind of splinter/breakaway faction of Changelings. Admittedly, our understanding of the Great Link is murky, at best. We know there can be disagreements within it...but, can there actually be a splinter group? WTF did Odo do to these people?
Does Matalas think "There was a separate faction who didn't want to abide by the terms" is a thorough enough explanation of what happened here?
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2023 12:00:11 GMT -5
Yeah pretty much agree with all of that. See also the really weird reference to Picard fighting the Hirogen. While it is established that the Hirogen have a communications relay that stretches to the Alpha Quadrant in Voyager, it's also destroyed. The Hirogen are great and all, but it's really clear that the reference is just there for Voyager fans to get a tingle of "I recognize something!" rather than it making any sense in actual context (context, of course, being the thing that's entirely absent, since it's presented as Just Another Picard Anecdote). Terrible at Trek references indeed.
I saw that Hirogen reference in the recap I read. That raised my eyebrows. I read that section of the recap wondering if it was actually meant to be fictitious in-universe. He's talking about getting helped by *Lt Cmdr* Worf. Um... when exactly was this, Picard?
Ugh, this whole name-dropping way of referencing past Trek is so annoying. Writers, please, at least think about whether what you are saying is plausible. Matalas, saying you want PIC to fit into the universe of DS9 and VOY means you actually need to understand those shows.
These guys always say that making future-set Trek shows is so hard because you get bogged down by continuity. Guys, it isn't that hard. Just actually watch the Trek that came before you. I know this stuff is wrong without even opening Memory Alpha. And I've not even watched VOY all the way through!
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Mar 14, 2023 12:14:48 GMT -5
Terry Matalas said "I think it's important that DS9 fans feel seen."
Actually, Terry, I'm good. I'd prefer you not muck around with DS9's characters and story if you don't thoroughly understand them. He says he wants PIC to fit into the DS9 and VOY universe. (This would have been really helpful if you'd considered it in Season 1!)
The problem here is that DS9 has so damn many story elements in play that make up its universe. You can't just pull one element out of the mix and think it will work on another show. Like, I see a Changeling and the first thing I think is, "How the hell did they get to the Alpha Quadrant?" And if you can't explain that, then you don't thoroughly understand DS9. And therefore, I don't trust you to reference it.
Both DSC and PIC have been absolutely TERRIBLE at Trek references. These shows should not be about Star Trek because they can't even get that right! They opt for shallow fan service and name drops without understanding the full context of what they are referencing!
Yeah pretty much agree with all of that. See also the really weird reference to Picard fighting the Hirogen. While it is established that the Hirogen have a communications relay that stretches to the Alpha Quadrant in Voyager, it's also destroyed. The Hirogen are great and all, but it's really clear that the reference is just there for Voyager fans to get a tingle of "I recognize something!" rather than it making any sense in actual context (context, of course, being the thing that's entirely absent, since it's presented as Just Another Picard Anecdote). Terrible at Trek references indeed. Man, I get less excited about just getting P+ for a month every time I come in this thread. Wasn't it also pretty heavily implied that a lot of that Hirogen tech was quite old and the current generation had steered too hard into HUNTER CULTURE to do much more than bare level maintenance on what they had? |
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ABz B👹anaz
Grandfathered In
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Posts: 1,992
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Post by ABz B👹anaz on Mar 14, 2023 12:18:24 GMT -5
Yeah pretty much agree with all of that. See also the really weird reference to Picard fighting the Hirogen. While it is established that the Hirogen have a communications relay that stretches to the Alpha Quadrant in Voyager, it's also destroyed. The Hirogen are great and all, but it's really clear that the reference is just there for Voyager fans to get a tingle of "I recognize something!" rather than it making any sense in actual context (context, of course, being the thing that's entirely absent, since it's presented as Just Another Picard Anecdote). Terrible at Trek references indeed. Man, I get less excited about just getting P+ for a month every time I come in this thread. Wasn't it also pretty heavily implied that a lot of that Hirogen tech was quite old and the current generation had steered too hard into HUNTER CULTURE to do much more than bare level maintenance on what they had? I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought, "WHEN THE FUCK'D WE GET ICE CREAM PICARD FIGHT HIROGEN?!" |
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 14, 2023 16:00:44 GMT -5
These guys always say that making future-set Trek shows is so hard because you get bogged down by continuity. Guys, it isn't that hard. Just actually watch the Trek that came before you. I know this stuff is wrong without even opening Memory Alpha. And I've not even watched VOY all the way through!
They arguably also bog it down themselves. If you look at DS9 it really owed very little to past Trek in terms of its setting—the Bajorans were established, the Cardassians were established, but they weren’t necessarily all that well defined (I think the Cardassians may have appeared only appeared in a couple of episodes before DS9 started, not counting “The Chain of Command” which was supposed to kind of re-familiarize us with them in anticipation of DS9). The context was there but DS9 set out on its own thing. They used other elements of that context when it was useful, but it was always something to draw on, not something they needed to force themselves into.
[Adding for Prole that this was absolutely true—and a positive aspect—of VOY as well.]
DS9 never had to be a nostalgia property, though—TNG was still on the air when it started, and movies, syndicated reruns, TOS in syndication—I think a lot of stations even aired TOS-TNG-DS9 as a block. Now Trek is, so there’s seem to be a requirement that they link it to the past without being all that interested in it. The problem, I think, is that they actually do too much Memory Alpha diving in an attempt to weave it together with past Trek. New Trek is all references, no context. |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2023 17:28:31 GMT -5
These guys always say that making future-set Trek shows is so hard because you get bogged down by continuity. Guys, it isn't that hard. Just actually watch the Trek that came before you. I know this stuff is wrong without even opening Memory Alpha. And I've not even watched VOY all the way through!
They arguably also bog it down themselves. If you look at DS9 it really owed very little to past Trek in terms of its setting—the Bajorans were established, the Cardassians were established, but they weren’t necessarily all that well defined (I think the Cardassians may have appeared only appeared in a couple of episodes before DS9 started, not counting “The Chain of Command” which was supposed to kind of re-familiarize us with them in anticipation of DS9). The context was there but DS9 set out on its own thing. They used other elements of that context when it was useful, but it was always something to draw on, not something they needed to force themselves into.
[Adding for Prole that this was absolutely true—and a positive aspect—of VOY as well.]
Yes! Michael Piller, Ira Steven Behr and Jeri Taylor didn't sit there going, "Oh no, we have to deal with all this Trek history. How can we ever navigate this much continuity? Aaaaaaaah!" Instead they looked for things that Trek hadn't done, and then told stories about that. Sure, they picked the two quadrants of space that hadn't been seen in TOS and TNG, but - just saying - space is big. There's lots of stuff we haven't seen. The Federation itself has hundreds of planets in it. There's other non-Federation aliens out there. There's empty spaces where we know nothing. VOY skipped past huge swaths of the Delta Quadrant. DS9 left the Gamma Quadrant in a state of flux. We still don't even know what's in most of the Gamma Quadrant! Hell, even the Alpha/Beta Quadrants were left somewhat politically unstable after the end of DS9.
There's LOTS you could do!!
(Maybe this is a problem of scale. DSC has this problem where every season has to be universe-wide existential threat. It doesn't need to be that!)
I think you're right. That they feel this pressure to tie everything together. STOP IT! Stop doing that. Just tell your own story. You could have just had those people asking Picard about the Borg, right? Did you need that VOY reference? NO!!
I don't understand why they treat the shows this way. There's no reason they need to be this. It's STAR TREK! It should be boldy going forward.
Can I blame this on Rick Berman and ENT? It would feel so satisfying to blame this all on Rick Berman.
In any case, to Terry Matalas and everyone writing these shows, it's great that you say you want to fit these into the DS9/VOY universe. But, like... actually do that. Use what happened there as your set of starting conditions. "I have a universe that looks like this" and then figure out what you want to explore within that. If you want to use the Changelings, that's okay, theoretically. But you need to understand why their attack on the Alpha Quadrant was thwarted before, and what their final state was in DS9. That is now your set of STARTING CONDITIONS.
If you feel "bogged down" by that, then just use a new alien species! To repeat: Space is big. There's other stuff out there!
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2023 17:40:23 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post, but, like, actually watching DS9 would be very instructive for these nuTrek writers, yeah?
When DS9 felt like they needed to bring the Klingons in, they didn't say, "Let's just make them antagonists now because they used to be cool villains". They looked at where TNG left them.
1. Factional in-fighting, a politically tenuous Chancellor, who doesn't come from a powerful house and therefore would want to prove himself. A warrior culture which thrives on war and conquest.
Okay, then we also have in our show
2. Secretive Changelings who are infiltrating governments in an attempt to destabilize the quadrant
and then
3. An already unstable Cardassian government, with a civilian dissident movement gaining power in an attempt to topple the Military government.
Those are now our starting conditions for DS9 S4. What can we do there?
DS9's writers never started the season with a season long plan. They just had a set of starting conditions and wrote what they felt would happen next based on that.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 14, 2023 18:00:10 GMT -5
Desert Dweller The did mention the Klingons in “The Die is cast” but what’s more impressive is that they were told to bring the Klingons in then (and in a big way) and did such a good job of it.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 14, 2023 22:15:11 GMT -5
Desert Dweller The did mention the Klingons in “The Die is cast” but what’s more impressive is that they were told to bring the Klingons in then (and in a big way) and did such a good job of it. Yes, this is what I mean. I get irritated when I hear these new writers say they feel "bogged down" by the continuity. Well, DS9's writers were told to bring the Klingons in. So they sat down and started thinking about the Klingons and how they would fit into their story. And realized they could actually continue the Changeling/Dominion story they intended, and just add the Klingons in!
The continuity doesn't bog you down if you know what you are doing. Just think about why you are using this character/planet/alien species, what is known about them. And then how can you use this in your story.
These writers do it the opposite way. They already have a story and think, "We just need to tie this in somehow. What's an alien species we can mention here?" Ugh, no. Just stop doing that!
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Post by Prole Hole on Mar 15, 2023 4:39:46 GMT -5
I think, broadening this discussion out a bit, the problem is that the desire to tie everything into a single unified whole just serves to make everything so incredibly small. Not everything needs to be connected! This is what I mean when I say Star Trek has given up being about anything other than Star Trek. It's Star Trek about Star Trek and not about anything else and ultimately that's just not interesting. It no longer has any kind of material connection to the real world, and so as a result huge swathes of it come across as vapid exercise in masturbatory self-referencing. Which they can't even get right, or at least, make seem convincing.
Discovery, to its very limited credit, does try to have some kind of material connection to the real world, with stories about trans characters for example, but the writing on that show is so off-the-scales fucked and all over the place that it can't come close to landing it's stories. That's partly because it treats its one trans character as a special little crystal bowl that might shatter into a billion pieces if they dare do anything with them, and also because that series can't be about anything other then Burnham. It's great that there's a trans character there, the visibility is important and I'd never want to deny that, but the show just isn't up to doing anything with it.
Picard is barely even about Picard in Season One, when they try to write about him in S2 it's the most banal mommy-issues that apparently made him who he is today (oh and also Q for no great reason other than, hey Q! which returns us to our theme of Star Trek just being about Star Trek) and S3 so far at least is mostly about "the crew of Picard sucked, quick get back the ones people like!" I like this season of Picard so far - stupid, arbitrary continuity references and pointless Changeling inclusion notwithstanding - but I'm frustrated that the Star Trek I love, the one that was about endless possibilities and unseen new horizons, remains completely in absentia in live-action.
"Remember when we used to be explorers?" - Jean-Luc Picard, Insurrection, wearing a silly hat.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 16, 2023 21:20:08 GMT -5
Picard outliving Q just seems so wrong. I’d always imagined that Q would be Picard’s psychopomp.
It’s awful that they tried to explain Picard’s personality as the result of some kind of childhood trauma when there’s nothing wrong with Picard’s personality—hell he’s famous as a role model.
Picard failed to learn the big lesson from Nemesis—do not let Patrick Stewart (or Spiner) anywhere near story development. I guess they wouldn’t have had a Picard show without his input but Stewart is fundamentally bored with the character and that’s fine, he’s an actor, but it’s sacrificed a lot of what makes Picard Picard.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 17, 2023 3:01:02 GMT -5
I like this season of Picard so far - stupid, arbitrary continuity references and pointless Changeling inclusion notwithstanding - but I'm frustrated that the Star Trek I love, the one that was about endless possibilities and unseen new horizons, remains completely in absentia in live-action. "Remember when we used to be explorers?" - Jean-Luc Picard, Insurrection, wearing a silly hat.
It's really depressing to me that ST: PIC is the only new live-action show that wasn't designed as a prequel, and it seems to have nothing to say about the future. Like, all of S1's story turned out to be "Androids deserve rights". Super, we already established that in TNG. I haven't watched S2, and I can't seem to figure out what it was actually about, other than Picard suddenly has a childhood trauma he needs to deal with. And there's Borg. I don't know. None of this is telling us anything about the future.
And now S3 brings in another old villain. These villains are back why? Because some of them are still mad? Writers, what are we doing here? Don't you have anything new to say?
This is all crazy to me. You just look at where DS9 and VOY ended, and there should be a lot of stories to tell there. I'm on record as saying the JJ-verse story about Romulus's star going nova is really dumb, but that was written into PIC S1. There's stuff you can do there. Why were there Romulans in S1 of this show and their whole purpose was "Stop some androids from taking over the galaxy"? That was so weird, right? Like, S1 and the JJ movie essentially say there was an ecological/climate disaster that destroyed their home, we could have provided assistance to rescue more of them, but we chose not to in order to appease reactionaries, and now they are a bunch of refugees. And the only ones we meet are... a warrior monk, and two who are only concerned about stopping an android takeover.
Wow.
You're right that this show is just not engaging in telling stories that connect to the real world. As I said, it seems like there are no ideas the writers want to explore using this future setting. It is such a weird thing to experience in Star Trek.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 21, 2023 12:28:50 GMT -5
Read a recap of S3E5 of PIC. Did they really claim in this episode that they could previously detect Changelings by scanning them, since they didn't replicate interior biology? But now they do?
If they said this, it is a bizarre error to make for seemingly no purpose, since they just immediately reverted it back to how it always was.
How many episodes of DS9 could have been solved if they could just use their sensors/scanners to detect a Changeling?
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 21, 2023 14:59:30 GMT -5
Like, all of S1's story turned out to be "Androids deserve rights". Super, we already established that in TNG.
I was shocked they did the whole “our starships are built by androids” thing. Whoopi went over this—it’s slavery. You could do something interesting with why the Federation went this route, but it has to be explained. It’s not like Guinan’s line in “The Measure of a man” is some throwaway moment that can be contradicted if there’s a good story. It’s one of the greatest and best-known scenes in the entire franchise! (and I first wrote Whoopi unintentionally but really, even people who don’t know a thing about Trek connect with it and her saying it) |
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 21, 2023 17:06:01 GMT -5
Like, all of S1's story turned out to be "Androids deserve rights". Super, we already established that in TNG.
I was shocked they did the whole “our starships are built by androids” thing. Whoopi went over this—it’s slavery. You could do something interesting with why the Federation went this route, but it has to be explained. It’s not like Guinan’s line in “The Measure of a man” is some throwaway moment that can be contradicted if there’s a good story. It’s one of the greatest and best-known scenes in the entire franchise! (and I first wrote Whoopi unintentionally but really, even people who don’t know a thing about Trek connect with it and her saying it) I really don't know what they thought they were doing. I was so deeply disappointed that this was the whole S1 storyline. I really cannot believe they spent an entire season to say something Guinan explained in one scene in TNG. All that extra time to get to an end point where the androids decide they are superior and want to wipe out biological life, but stop because of a Picard speech? And as I said above, given what the rest of the franchise did to the Romulans, it really blows my mind that this series decided to make them villains bent on stopping androids from destroying life. And given that those androids did actually intend to wipe out biological life, these Romulan "villains" were actually kinda correct?
So, the whole S1 story was "androids deserve rights" and they couldn't even tell that story clearly. Again, it took Guinan ONE SCENE to clearly explain this in TNG, with an added Picard speech tacked on at the end as a bonus.
If I were writing S3 of Picard and decided that I wanted to use the Changelings, I'd want to ask myself WHY these are the correct villains to use now. What do they have to offer? For me, the purpose of Changelings as villains is their ability to spread fear through disinformation. To ratchet up paranoia and turn people against each other. Thereby to divide and conquer. However, given the fractured universe that ST: PIC has been showing us from the start, this would all be a bit redundant, no?
Like, there's thematic potential with this villain, but I'm not sure PIC is the show that could correctly use this.
Edited to add: It seems from the recaps that this season of PIC wants to be telling personal stories about the characters. That's good. I'm just not sure why the Changelings are there.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Mar 21, 2023 18:40:31 GMT -5
Desert Dweller I think it makes sense that if the number of androids increased there’d be more politically-organized xenophobia (much like in Europe when immigration became more regular) but that’s not the intellectual level Picard was working at.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Mar 29, 2023 18:58:59 GMT -5
Prole Hole I checked in on your Trek podcast this week. I think the last one I checked out was "Balance of Terror". I did listen to the "Galileo Seven" episode. Really enjoyed that one. I saw your newest one was "Court Martial". I realized I have no memory of that episode. So I played your podcast episode. Wow, literally the only thing I remember about that episode is "crew member is secretly still alive". I listened to you all talk about it, and nothing you talked about even jogged my memory. That episode must be incredibly dull.
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