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Post by ganews on May 21, 2019 11:01:56 GMT -5
Geez those are some spindly legs if this isn't a photoshop, maybe he went Method.
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Post by Powerthirteen on May 21, 2019 18:51:41 GMT -5
So on his blog GRRM put up a big post-finale post in which he says, among other things, "there are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet." And that, in a nutshell, is why he's never going to finish the books - because his original story, a story about how five kids from the North got tangled up with the rise and fall of a contender for the iron throne, has grown over a hundred tangentially related subplots and narrative threads along the way, and he feels the need to find a way to tie *all* of them off.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 19:22:43 GMT -5
So on his blog GRRM put up a big post-finale post in which he says, among other things, "there are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet." And that, in a nutshell, is why he's never going to finish the books - because his original story, a story about how five kids from the North got tangled up with the rise and fall of a contender for the iron throne, has grown over a hundred tangentially related subplots and narrative threads along the way, and he feels the need to find a way to tie *all* of them off. The sad part though, what makes ASOIAF so intriguing(in my eyes at least) is the detail of the lore, and worldbuilding, and how even small characters can feel fully fleshed out. It is frustrating it kept growing and growing to the point he will likely never be able to tie it all together, but imo it goes hand in hand with what makes the books compelling. Hell, I was at a bookstore today and saw Fire and Blood, a new book he wrote that is literally just the history of the Targaryans, it is 700 pages hardcover, and I almost bought it without even thinking. I didn't, because I got my wife a book instead.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on May 21, 2019 19:33:48 GMT -5
So on his blog GRRM put up a big post-finale post in which he says, among other things, "there are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet." And that, in a nutshell, is why he's never going to finish the books - because his original story, a story about how five kids from the North got tangled up with the rise and fall of a contender for the iron throne, has grown over a hundred tangentially related subplots and narrative threads along the way, and he feels the need to find a way to tie *all* of them off. The sad part though, what makes ASOIAF so intriguing(in my eyes at least) is the detail of the lore, and worldbuilding, and how even small characters can feel fully fleshed out. It is frustrating it kept growing and growing to the point he will likely never be able to tie it all together, but imo it goes hand in hand with what makes the books compelling. Hell, I was at a bookstore today and saw Fire and Blood, a new book he wrote that is literally just the history of the Targaryans, it is 700 pages hardcover, and I almost bought it without even thinking. I didn't, because I got my wife a book instead. Was the book that you bought for your wife instead A World of Ice & Fire, GRRM's reference history of Westeros?
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 19:35:51 GMT -5
The sad part though, what makes ASOIAF so intriguing(in my eyes at least) is the detail of the lore, and worldbuilding, and how even small characters can feel fully fleshed out. It is frustrating it kept growing and growing to the point he will likely never be able to tie it all together, but imo it goes hand in hand with what makes the books compelling. Hell, I was at a bookstore today and saw Fire and Blood, a new book he wrote that is literally just the history of the Targaryans, it is 700 pages hardcover, and I almost bought it without even thinking. I didn't, because I got my wife a book instead. Was the book that you bought for your wife instead A World of Ice & Fire, GRRM's reference history of Westeros? No, it was John Waters new book.
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Post by Powerthirteen on May 21, 2019 21:27:33 GMT -5
So on his blog GRRM put up a big post-finale post in which he says, among other things, "there are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet." And that, in a nutshell, is why he's never going to finish the books - because his original story, a story about how five kids from the North got tangled up with the rise and fall of a contender for the iron throne, has grown over a hundred tangentially related subplots and narrative threads along the way, and he feels the need to find a way to tie *all* of them off. The sad part though, what makes ASOIAF so intriguing(in my eyes at least) is the detail of the lore, and worldbuilding, and how even small characters can feel fully fleshed out. It is frustrating it kept growing and growing to the point he will likely never be able to tie it all together, but imo it goes hand in hand with what makes the books compelling. Hell, I was at a bookstore today and saw Fire and Blood, a new book he wrote that is literally just the history of the Targaryans, it is 700 pages hardcover, and I almost bought it without even thinking. I didn't, because I got my wife a book instead. Yeah, it really is a double edged sword and I wish I had any faith he could rein it in. As I’ve said before, I think this is in large part a failure on his editors’ part to help him keep things under control.
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Post by liebkartoffel on May 21, 2019 21:50:49 GMT -5
Ultimately, I agree most with the take that while everyone ended up about where I expected them, the show did a piss-poor job explaining how they got there. Like, if I had stopped watching the show after the third season and then just read the wikipedia synopsis of the rest of the series I'd go "yeah, okay, that generally makes sense. 'Bran the Broken*' was a bit out of left field, but otherwise seems like a satisfying conclusion." This final season was a mess, the pacing was all off, the final war with the Night King should have been a much, much bigger deal**, the show relied far too much upon blatant speechifying to rush through important plot points--"why can't Jon and Daenerys just get married?" "because Northerners think marrying your aunt is yucky, duh" "why should Bran be king?" "because people like stories, duh"--they should have done a better job setting up Daenerys's descent into fascism rather than just flipping a berserk switch, Daenerys should have been the one to kill the Night King, Arya should have been the one to kill Daenerys, etc. But...this actual final episode is about as good as one can expect. If we had gotten this episode after a good, well-paced, 10-episode season, I'd be pretty okay with things.
*I think Bran's first kingly command should have been for everyone to immediately stop calling him "Bran the Broken." The show knows that these sorts of royal nicknames were applied long after the fact by bored historians, right? It's not like when Richard III became king everyone was all like "all hail Richard Crookback, the King with a fucked up back!"
*It seems pretty clear to me that the war with the Night King will be the actual conclusion of the books--how could it not?--while the business down in King's Landing will be a tragic "scouring of the shire"-like epilogue. I know that would be difficult to convey in the TV medium, but man did it feel wildly anticlimactic.
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Post by Powerthirteen on May 22, 2019 11:44:27 GMT -5
*It seems pretty clear to me that the war with the Night King will be the actual conclusion of the books--how could it not?--while the business down in King's Landing will be a tragic "scouring of the shire"-like epilogue. I know that would be difficult to convey in the TV medium, but man did it feel wildly anticlimactic. Either that, or it's the end of Winds of Winter and literally all of A Dream of Spring covers the last three episodes.
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Post by patbat on May 22, 2019 11:53:16 GMT -5
*It seems pretty clear to me that the war with the Night King will be the actual conclusion of the books--how could it not?--while the business down in King's Landing will be a tragic "scouring of the shire"-like epilogue. I know that would be difficult to convey in the TV medium, but man did it feel wildly anticlimactic. Either that, or it's the end of Winds of Winter and literally all of A Dream of Spring covers the last three episodes. I think if the books were coming (they're totally not) this is exactly how they'd have to go.
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Post by patbat on May 23, 2019 16:15:24 GMT -5
Actually, now that the show's done and dusted...is it okay for us to talk about the books in here, and how things differed from the show? Would that constitute spoilers in some way? I have a hard time seeing how it would, but just in case--is anyone planning on starting the unfinished book series who's finished the TV series?
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Post by ganews on May 23, 2019 16:34:39 GMT -5
Actually, now that the show's done and dusted...is it okay for us to talk about the books in here, and how things differed from the show? Would that constitute spoilers in some way? I have a hard time seeing how it would, but just in case--is anyone planning on starting the unfinished book series who's finished the TV series? There actually is a companion book thread here on TV board if you search for it.
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Post by Desert Dweller on May 25, 2019 19:03:10 GMT -5
So on his blog GRRM put up a big post-finale post in which he says, among other things, "there are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet." And that, in a nutshell, is why he's never going to finish the books - because his original story, a story about how five kids from the North got tangled up with the rise and fall of a contender for the iron throne, has grown over a hundred tangentially related subplots and narrative threads along the way, and he feels the need to find a way to tie *all* of them off.
Yeah, I can see how this has overwhelmed him. He clearly loves expanding the lore and details of the story. It has obviously expanded to the point that he can no longer get his arms around it. But, ugh, I really wish he could work his way through this. I now sincerely want to read the way he'd end the story. Is there any hope that seeing a pseudo-ending of the story play out on screen might focus his writing? Inspire him to just let some stuff go for the sake of progressing the story?
I mean, does anyone care what happens to Penny and her pig, honestly? Darkstar? Shavepate? Ser Garlan? Come on George. We appreciate the way you try to flesh out all the characters, but some of these people are not that interesting. Your universe is engulfed in war. Just have them disappear. It happens. It's okay if we don't know what some stuff means. Or maybe it means nothing! Just plow ahead!
That said, yeah, I would like to know what happens to Arianne Martell. ALL of House Martell, really, since the show gave up on it. And if Asha is ending up as ruler of the Iron Islands, then yes, I'd like to see what happens to Victarion. And Euron, since how he was presented in the show was off. And speaking of House Greyjoy, I'd also like to know if Theon really lives until the battle with the Night King, because that is amazing.
And while I'm not that interested in the Aegon VI character for himself, I'm fairly interested in how he'd impact the political situation in Westeros. This has potential to be a more interesting story than what happened in the show when Dany finally got to Westeros.
Sigh. All I know is that the ending of the show only *increased* my desire to read the last two books. It is disappointing that he's likely never going to finish them.
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Post by Powerthirteen on May 25, 2019 19:14:19 GMT -5
So on his blog GRRM put up a big post-finale post in which he says, among other things, "there are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet." And that, in a nutshell, is why he's never going to finish the books - because his original story, a story about how five kids from the North got tangled up with the rise and fall of a contender for the iron throne, has grown over a hundred tangentially related subplots and narrative threads along the way, and he feels the need to find a way to tie *all* of them off.
Yeah, I can see how this has overwhelmed him. He clearly loves expanding the lore and details of the story. It has obviously expanded to the point that he can no longer get his arms around it. But, ugh, I really wish he could work his way through this. I now sincerely want to read the way he'd end the story. Is there any hope that seeing a pseudo-ending of the story play out on screen might focus his writing? Inspire him to just let some stuff go for the sake of progressing the story?
I mean, does anyone care what happens to Penny and her pig, honestly? Darkstar? Shavepate? Ser Garlan? Come on George. We appreciate the way you try to flesh out all the characters, but some of these people are not that interesting. Your universe is engulfed in war. Just have them disappear. It happens. It's okay if we don't know what some stuff means. Or maybe it means nothing! Just plow ahead!
That said, yeah, I would like to know what happens to Arianne Martell. ALL of House Martell, really, since the show gave up on it. And if Asha is ending up as ruler of the Iron Islands, then yes, I'd like to see what happens to Victarion. And Euron, since how he was presented in the show was off. And speaking of House Greyjoy, I'd also like to know if Theon really lives until the battle with the Night King, because that is amazing.
And while I'm not that interested in the Aegon VI character for himself, I'm fairly interested in how he'd impact the political situation in Westeros. This has potential to be a more interesting story than what happened in the show when Dany finally got to Westeros.
Sigh. All I know is that the ending of the show only *increased* my desire to read the last two books. It is disappointing that he's likely never going to finish them.
Judging by the Winds of Winter pages he's published it sounds like the Euron story in the book is going to be super tied up with Drowned God mythology, which is the kind of thing the show ran out of time and energy to really go into. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM intends there to be a significant mystical angle to the resolution, with Bran, Melisandre, Beric and more, that the notes he gave the show just didn't include.
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Post by Desert Dweller on May 25, 2019 20:43:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see how this has overwhelmed him. He clearly loves expanding the lore and details of the story. It has obviously expanded to the point that he can no longer get his arms around it. But, ugh, I really wish he could work his way through this. I now sincerely want to read the way he'd end the story. Is there any hope that seeing a pseudo-ending of the story play out on screen might focus his writing? Inspire him to just let some stuff go for the sake of progressing the story?
I mean, does anyone care what happens to Penny and her pig, honestly? Darkstar? Shavepate? Ser Garlan? Come on George. We appreciate the way you try to flesh out all the characters, but some of these people are not that interesting. Your universe is engulfed in war. Just have them disappear. It happens. It's okay if we don't know what some stuff means. Or maybe it means nothing! Just plow ahead!
That said, yeah, I would like to know what happens to Arianne Martell. ALL of House Martell, really, since the show gave up on it. And if Asha is ending up as ruler of the Iron Islands, then yes, I'd like to see what happens to Victarion. And Euron, since how he was presented in the show was off. And speaking of House Greyjoy, I'd also like to know if Theon really lives until the battle with the Night King, because that is amazing.
And while I'm not that interested in the Aegon VI character for himself, I'm fairly interested in how he'd impact the political situation in Westeros. This has potential to be a more interesting story than what happened in the show when Dany finally got to Westeros.
Sigh. All I know is that the ending of the show only *increased* my desire to read the last two books. It is disappointing that he's likely never going to finish them.
Judging by the Winds of Winter pages he's published it sounds like the Euron story in the book is going to be super tied up with Drowned God mythology, which is the kind of thing the show ran out of time and energy to really go into. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM intends there to be a significant mystical angle to the resolution, with Bran, Melisandre, Beric and more, that the notes he gave the show just didn't include.
The showrunners were clearly not at all interested in the magical parts of the story. They could barely handle Bran's story. They reduced the Night King and White Walkers to "they're just evil zombies!". Melisandre seemed even more out of place on the show than she feels in the books. The prophecies were mostly ignored. "Magic is returning to Westeros" is something the show didn't want to touch at all. Euron as portrayed in the book was never going to make it to the show.
I wonder if part of the reason the final season felt so wrong is because GRRM's story relies on more magic than the showrunners wanted to include. So, they had to make up other ways stuff happened, but then those other ways didn't really make sense? I definitely get this vibe from everything happening around Bran.
Ah well. It is all speculation at this point. My friends still believe he's eventually going to publish the books, but I don' think so. I think we may get a few more chapters of Winds of Winter, but I just don't believe he's motivated to finish it.
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Post by liebkartoffel on May 26, 2019 0:51:45 GMT -5
Judging by the Winds of Winter pages he's published it sounds like the Euron story in the book is going to be super tied up with Drowned God mythology, which is the kind of thing the show ran out of time and energy to really go into. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM intends there to be a significant mystical angle to the resolution, with Bran, Melisandre, Beric and more, that the notes he gave the show just didn't include.
The showrunners were clearly not at all interested in the magical parts of the story. They could barely handle Bran's story. They reduced the Night King and White Walkers to "they're just evil zombies!". Melisandre seemed even more out of place on the show than she feels in the books. The prophecies were mostly ignored. "Magic is returning to Westeros" is something the show didn't want to touch at all. Euron as portrayed in the book was never going to make it to the show.
I wonder if part of the reason the final season felt so wrong is because GRRM's story relies on more magic than the showrunners wanted to include. So, they had to make up other ways stuff happened, but then those other ways didn't really make sense? I definitely get this vibe from everything happening around Bran.
Ah well. It is all speculation at this point. My friends still believe he's eventually going to publish the books, but I don' think so. I think we may get a few more chapters of Winds of Winter, but I just don't believe he's motivated to finish it.
I still love it when people try to explain/justify what the hell the "plan" was for the battle of Winterfell. Sacrifice untold hundreds of people to lure the Night King to within a couple feet of Bran and then...wait for Arya ex Machina? Were they always planning on Arya shanking the Night King? If not, what was the actual plan? Have Bran defeat him in a staring contest? People keep saying that Bran didn't have to do, like, literally anything at all because he's omniscient and he was precisely where he needed be. In which case a helpful heads up like "hey, maybe don't hide out in crypts when the bad guy can reanimate corpses" would have been nice. Bran can warg into other creatures, you say? Oh yeah, we'll just have him control a bunch of crows who will just kind of passively watch the battle and otherwise not do anything. Arya has cool face-stealing powers? Sounds like something the audience would expect her to do, so we'll just have her suddenly teleport into the grove from across the castle. Of course, this is setting aside the fact that it would've made far more narrative sense to have Dany kill the Night King, which would both fulfill the "prince(ss) who was promised" prophecy and make her descent into totalitarianism and eventual death all the more tragic, but whatever. Gah, so much of that episode annoyed the hell out of me.
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Post by pairesta on May 26, 2019 9:16:10 GMT -5
The showrunners were clearly not at all interested in the magical parts of the story. They could barely handle Bran's story. They reduced the Night King and White Walkers to "they're just evil zombies!". Melisandre seemed even more out of place on the show than she feels in the books. The prophecies were mostly ignored. "Magic is returning to Westeros" is something the show didn't want to touch at all. Euron as portrayed in the book was never going to make it to the show.
I wonder if part of the reason the final season felt so wrong is because GRRM's story relies on more magic than the showrunners wanted to include. So, they had to make up other ways stuff happened, but then those other ways didn't really make sense? I definitely get this vibe from everything happening around Bran.
Ah well. It is all speculation at this point. My friends still believe he's eventually going to publish the books, but I don' think so. I think we may get a few more chapters of Winds of Winter, but I just don't believe he's motivated to finish it.
I still love it when people try to explain/justify what the hell the "plan" was for the battle of Winterfell. Sacrifice untold hundreds of people to lure the Night King to within a couple feet of Bran and then...wait for Arya ex Machina? Were they always planning on Arya shanking the Night King? If not, what was the actual plan? Have Bran defeat him in a staring contest? People keep saying that Bran didn't have to do, like, literally anything at all because he's omniscient and he was precisely where he needed be. In which case a helpful heads up like "hey, maybe don't hide out in crypts when the bad guy can reanimate corpses" would have been nice. Bran can warg into other creatures, you say? Oh yeah, we'll just have him control a bunch of crows who will just kind of passively watch the battle and otherwise not do anything. Arya has cool face-stealing powers? Sounds like something the audience would expect her to do, so we'll just have her suddenly teleport into the grove from across the castle. Of course, this is setting aside the fact that it would've made far more narrative sense to have Dany kill the Night King, which would both fulfill the "prince(ss) who was promised" prophecy and make her descent into totalitarianism and eventual death all the more tragic, but whatever. Gah, so much of that episode annoyed the hell out of me. My sense of the plan was that Dany and/or Jon were to take the Night King out with their dragons, seeing as how both went after him as soon as he showed up. Bran didn't really care, I guess, because he'd seen how this was going to game out anyways. Then that plan got pooched when the Night King winds up being immune to dragonfire. And Jon gets distracted trying to fight an undead dragon. DAMMIT, Jon. Anyways. Not that it negates your large point of how poorly put together any of that was, both in-show itself, and in direction and writing.
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on May 27, 2019 6:03:54 GMT -5
Geez those are some spindly legs if this isn't a photoshop, maybe he went Method. He skipped leg day
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 14:01:45 GMT -5
Watching the episode where Tyrion marries Sansa. This was harder to watch than it was to read.
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Post by Jean Luc de Lemur on May 27, 2019 14:27:46 GMT -5
Ultimately, I agree most with the take that while everyone ended up about where I expected them, the show did a piss-poor job explaining how they got there. My sister was a read-the-books-but-didn’t-watch-the-show person and that’s what she said—it made a lot of sense to her that Bran would be king but she got how the show’s characterization/arcs didn’t make it work in that context.
I’m pretty sure I don’t want to go back and watch the show (I tried watching a bit and it reinforced my general Roman-from-Party Down attitude towards fantasy), but damn peripherally hearing about all the worldbuilding is making me interested in going into the books.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 22:25:45 GMT -5
So, I just watched the Red Wedding episode of GoT, and I'm glad that finally is done. Look, it was sad, it was very tragic, but I always felt like the show went about Robb the wrong way. In the books Robb is not a main character, he is mainly a supporting character for Catelyn. Robb doesn't get any POV chapters. So watching season 3, anytime it cuts to Robb it kinda feels pointless in a way, if you read the books.
His death is still shocking and painful in the books, but since he wasn't a main character there isn't necessarily a nihilist feel to it. I was reading comments of old reviews of this episode and a lot of people were pissed, not in a wrapped up in a story way, but in a "what's the point" way. The books and the TV show are both very unforgiving, but the way Robb is framed in the books, it does make his death easier to swallow as he was never actually presented as a Main Character vs the TV Show. It is clear the story being told is someone else's.
P.S. a lot of Violence doesn't really make me flinch. Movies and TV have become gorey, but goddamn, seeing Robb's wife repeatedly shanked in the stomach was legitimately fucked up.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:44:30 GMT -5
Man, I'm starting to get legitimately pissed about the Red Wedding with the way it was portrayed in the TV show, and it really does come back to what they did with Robb's wife. In the books she isn't pregnant and isn't even there when it happens so she doesn't get killed. Like I said, it was legitimately upsetting with the violence they showed, and also now that I think more about it, totally unnecessary. Totally fucked up what they did with that, and it is hard to get that image out of my head, like I know it is fake, but fucking christ was it messed up.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on May 28, 2019 22:59:27 GMT -5
Man, I'm starting to get legitimately pissed about the Red Wedding with the way it was portrayed in the TV show, and it really does come back to what they did with Robb's wife. In the books she isn't pregnant and isn't even there when it happens so she doesn't get killed. Like I said, it was legitimately upsetting with the violence they showed, and also now that I think more about it, totally unnecessary. Totally fucked up what they did with that, and it is hard to get that image out of my head, like I know it is fake, but fucking christ was it messed up. In the books I mostly remember finding the Red Wedding gut-wrenching for the way it killed Catelyn right before Arya was about to be reuinted with her, which was probably the saddest moment in any of the books to me. But in the show, yeah, that's really what I remember, five or six years on, is Robb's pregnant wife being repeatedly stabbed. So yeah, it takes away from the original effect of one of the most memorable moments in the book by replacing it with a cheap moment of particularly senseless violence. On a lighter note, after having become familiar with the insane filmography of Neil Breen, whenever I think of the Red Wedding scene, what immediately jumps to mind is not the brutal murder of Robb's wife, but this brief sequence of incompetent film making.
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Post by liebkartoffel on May 28, 2019 23:34:12 GMT -5
Man, I'm starting to get legitimately pissed about the Red Wedding with the way it was portrayed in the TV show, and it really does come back to what they did with Robb's wife. In the books she isn't pregnant and isn't even there when it happens so she doesn't get killed. Like I said, it was legitimately upsetting with the violence they showed, and also now that I think more about it, totally unnecessary. Totally fucked up what they did with that, and it is hard to get that image out of my head, like I know it is fake, but fucking christ was it messed up. In the books I mostly remember finding the Red Wedding gut-wrenching for the way it killed Catelyn right before Arya was about to be reuinted with her, which was probably the saddest moment in any of the books to me. But in the show, yeah, that's really what I remember, five or six years on, is Robb's pregnant wife being repeatedly stabbed. So yeah, it takes away from the original effect of one of the most memorable moments in the book by replacing it with a cheap moment of particularly senseless violence. I think about the stabbing, and then I think about how the actress (b. 1986) is Charlie Chaplin's (b. 1889) granddaughter and how weird that is.
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Post by pairesta on May 29, 2019 7:41:26 GMT -5
So, I just watched the Red Wedding episode of GoT, and I'm glad that finally is done. Look, it was sad, it was very tragic, but I always felt like the show went about Robb the wrong way. In the books Robb is not a main character, he is mainly a supporting character for Catelyn. Robb doesn't get any POV chapters. So watching season 3, anytime it cuts to Robb it kinda feels pointless in a way, if you read the books. His death is still shocking and painful in the books, but since he wasn't a main character there isn't necessarily a nihilist feel to it. I was reading comments of old reviews of this episode and a lot of people were pissed, not in a wrapped up in a story way, but in a "what's the point" way. The books and the TV show are both very unforgiving, but the way Robb is framed in the books, it does make his death easier to swallow as he was never actually presented as a Main Character vs the TV Show. It is clear the story being told is someone else's. P.S. a lot of Violence doesn't really make me flinch. Movies and TV have become gorey, but goddamn, seeing Robb's wife repeatedly shanked in the stomach was legitimately fucked up. As a non-book reader, I picked up on this in show though. Robb was always held at a remove; his big accomplishments take place offscreen. When we checked in with him, it was to show is failings: executing the Karstark head, betraying his agreement with the Freys, and then the ominous episode closer of "well, let's just go talk it out with Frey; I'm sure he's forgiven us by now!". So yes, it was deeply upsetting, but the show did, in its own way, lay the groundwork for his doom (and Cate's, for that matter). It's what I meant a few pages back when I was comparing his upsetting death to Dany's upsetting heel turn: the work was done with Robb, but not Dany.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 10:46:12 GMT -5
So, I just watched the Red Wedding episode of GoT, and I'm glad that finally is done. Look, it was sad, it was very tragic, but I always felt like the show went about Robb the wrong way. In the books Robb is not a main character, he is mainly a supporting character for Catelyn. Robb doesn't get any POV chapters. So watching season 3, anytime it cuts to Robb it kinda feels pointless in a way, if you read the books. His death is still shocking and painful in the books, but since he wasn't a main character there isn't necessarily a nihilist feel to it. I was reading comments of old reviews of this episode and a lot of people were pissed, not in a wrapped up in a story way, but in a "what's the point" way. The books and the TV show are both very unforgiving, but the way Robb is framed in the books, it does make his death easier to swallow as he was never actually presented as a Main Character vs the TV Show. It is clear the story being told is someone else's. P.S. a lot of Violence doesn't really make me flinch. Movies and TV have become gorey, but goddamn, seeing Robb's wife repeatedly shanked in the stomach was legitimately fucked up. As a non-book reader, I picked up on this in show though. Robb was always held at a remove; his big accomplishments take place offscreen. When we checked in with him, it was to show is failings: executing the Karstark head, betraying his agreement with the Freys, and then the ominous episode closer of "well, let's just go talk it out with Frey; I'm sure he's forgiven us by now!". So yes, it was deeply upsetting, but the show did, in its own way, lay the groundwork for his doom (and Cate's, for that matter). It's what I meant a few pages back when I was comparing his upsetting death to Dany's upsetting heel turn: the work was done with Robb, but not Dany. They also added stuff like scenes just between Robb and Talisa, which is part of what leads to main character status for Robb vs the books where you don't get any of that. The whole stuff about her being pregnant just to shank the belly in the Red Wedding scene is fucked up.
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Post by Roy Batty's Pet Dove on May 29, 2019 19:07:09 GMT -5
As a non-book reader, I picked up on this in show though. Robb was always held at a remove; his big accomplishments take place offscreen. When we checked in with him, it was to show is failings: executing the Karstark head, betraying his agreement with the Freys, and then the ominous episode closer of "well, let's just go talk it out with Frey; I'm sure he's forgiven us by now!". So yes, it was deeply upsetting, but the show did, in its own way, lay the groundwork for his doom (and Cate's, for that matter). It's what I meant a few pages back when I was comparing his upsetting death to Dany's upsetting heel turn: the work was done with Robb, but not Dany. They also added stuff like scenes just between Robb and Talisa, which is part of what leads to main character status for Robb vs the books where you don't get any of that. The whole stuff about her being pregnant just to shank the belly in the Red Wedding scene is fucked up. Remind me again, what is Robb-wife's status as of the end of book 5? Was she a character vaguely hinted at to have possibly been pregnant with what would be the heir to a self-declared king, or am I not remembering that correctly?
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Post by Nudeviking on May 29, 2019 19:29:56 GMT -5
They also added stuff like scenes just between Robb and Talisa, which is part of what leads to main character status for Robb vs the books where you don't get any of that. The whole stuff about her being pregnant just to shank the belly in the Red Wedding scene is fucked up. Remind me again, what is Robb-wife's status as of the end of book 5? Was she a character vaguely hinted at to have possibly been pregnant with what would be the heir to a self-declared king, or am I not remembering that correctly? I know that she is alive as of the end of book 5. I think there were in-universe rumors of her being with child but I could very well be confusing the message board fan theorizing of "SerBongHit420 says, 'What if Robb's wife is pregnant and that kid becomes the new King in da North?'" with actual plot.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 19:37:00 GMT -5
They also added stuff like scenes just between Robb and Talisa, which is part of what leads to main character status for Robb vs the books where you don't get any of that. The whole stuff about her being pregnant just to shank the belly in the Red Wedding scene is fucked up. Remind me again, what is Robb-wife's status as of the end of book 5? Was she a character vaguely hinted at to have possibly been pregnant with what would be the heir to a self-declared king, or am I not remembering that correctly? Jeyne Westerling(Robb's wife in the books, and someone from westeros for those who haven't read them) never got pregnant in the books, the backstory is that her mother was giving her medicine to help conceive. However the medicine actually was to stop her from conceiving, Jeyne's mom was actually working with Tywin to make sure she didn't get pregnant so there wouldn't be another Heir to winterfell about. The westerlings were actually pardoned by Tommen, and Jeyne was sent back to where her family was originally from within Westeros.
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Post by sarapen on Oct 29, 2019 15:40:59 GMT -5
This is way late by now - can you believe we were all losing our minds arguing about this show just 5 short months ago? - but I came across this blogpost by a Roman/medieval historian analyzing the probable future of the Six Kingdoms by analogy with real world elective monarchies (mainly the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire): acoup.blog/2019/05/20/new-acquisitions-elective-monarchy-and-the-future-of-westeros/Mainly, it's not good. He points out that Bran the Broken was probably the worst candidate for kingship sitting at that conference table and that even Grey Worm might have been a better choice. He also theorizes that Sansa's descendants might conduct foreign election interference in future voting for Bran's royal successors and maps out a scenario where the Six Kingdoms are united under an Empire of the North.
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