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Post by sarapen on Jan 3, 2017 8:28:50 GMT -5
And, as we all know so well, Princess Leia's ship was a diplomatic vessel! What's always niggled me was more the number of fighters they have, since their "last ditch assault" on the first Death Star involves a number of vessels that would fit in a grocery store parking lot. I suppose the... less than positive results of the battle that ends Rogue One might explain why the Rebellion was a little low on X-wings at the time of the Battle of Yavin, though. SPOILERS There's so many little bits of fan goodness in that whole battle. Like, why there's a Red and Gold squadron at the battle of Yavin but no Blue Squadron. Why Red Five was an available callsign for Luke. Why there weren't capital ships to engage the Death Star. (They were probably also low on funds and resources since alot of their political clout got the hell out of there). Was there supposed to be a Blue Squadron? I'm unclear on how colours are assigned among the Rebels.
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Post by pairesta on Jan 3, 2017 8:38:17 GMT -5
SPOILERS There's so many little bits of fan goodness in that whole battle. Like, why there's a Red and Gold squadron at the battle of Yavin but no Blue Squadron. Why Red Five was an available callsign for Luke. Why there weren't capital ships to engage the Death Star. (They were probably also low on funds and resources since alot of their political clout got the hell out of there). Was there supposed to be a Blue Squadron? I'm unclear on how colours are assigned among the Rebels. I wouldn't say "supposed to", just that it was weird that the other squadron was Gold Squadron and not Blue Squadron, the natural corollary to Red squadron. Here's something I've noticed: is Rogue Squadron an EU only thing? I had always thought that Red Squadron from Battle of Yavin= Rogue Squadron in TESB and ROTJ, but in TESB it's Echo squadron and in ROTJ they actually are still Red Squadron. So where does Rogue Squadron come from? Is it in the OT anywhere? I always thought it was.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 3, 2017 8:52:17 GMT -5
There's so many little bits of fan goodness in that whole battle. Like, why there's a Red and Gold squadron at the battle of Yavin but no Blue Squadron. Blue Squadron was the name for Red Squadron in earlier drafts of the original film's script (so Luke Skywalker was 'Blue Five' in Alan Dean Foster's novelisation) so I particularly liked that note. IIRC some of the deleted footage from A New Hope reused for this film (allowing the movie to incorporate the original Red and Gold squadron pilots) included references to Blue Squadron. As for Rogue Squadron, I think the term was only used for the snowspeeders at the start of Empire?
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jan 3, 2017 9:09:26 GMT -5
Can't you sort of hand-wave the Battle of Yavin stuff with some combination of "All capital ships the Rebellion did have were used to evacuate personnel not directly needed for the Death Star attack" and "Even with some time to evacuate they had to launch the fighter attack since the Empire was all but guaranteed to find and correct the exhaust port flaw before the Rebellion would be able to re-group and attempt at different attack"?
Also, I would imagine that the Rebellion would look very different and more militaristic by the time Luke showed up because Bail Organa wasn't the only bureaucrat-type that wouldn't be coming back to Rebel Base after that Rogue One meeting. Or am I the only one that always figured that "the Emperor has disbanded the Senate" was a euphemism for "a lot of pesky Senators just got offed"?
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jan 3, 2017 9:11:47 GMT -5
There's so many little bits of fan goodness in that whole battle. Like, why there's a Red and Gold squadron at the battle of Yavin but no Blue Squadron. Blue Squadron was the name for Red Squadron in earlier drafts of the original film's script (so Luke Skywalker was 'Blue Five' in Alan Dean Foster's novelisation) so I particularly liked that note. IIRC some of the deleted footage from A New Hope reused for this film (allowing the movie to incorporate the original Red and Gold squadron pilots) included references to Blue Squadron. As for Rogue Squadron, I think the term was only used for the snowspeeders at the start of Empire? I think Rogue Squadron shows up in Empire and Jedi, which would make total sense. You figure with the losses at Scarif and Yavin there would be some necessary re-organizing of the fighter squadrons. Perfect time to rename your premier X-wing group in honor of some Alliance martyrs.
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Post by pairesta on Jan 3, 2017 9:26:20 GMT -5
Blue Squadron was the name for Red Squadron in earlier drafts of the original film's script (so Luke Skywalker was 'Blue Five' in Alan Dean Foster's novelisation) so I particularly liked that note. IIRC some of the deleted footage from A New Hope reused for this film (allowing the movie to incorporate the original Red and Gold squadron pilots) included references to Blue Squadron. As for Rogue Squadron, I think the term was only used for the snowspeeders at the start of Empire? I think Rogue Squadron shows up in Empire and Jedi, which would make total sense. You figure with the losses at Scarif and Yavin there would be some necessary re-organizing of the fighter squadrons. Perfect time to rename your premier X-wing group in honor of some Alliance martyrs. I always thought that too but I just watched ROTJ (original cut) and they're Red Squadron. In Empire I think they are Echo Squadron; or at least Zev is. Maybe in the Special Editions they re-dub lines and call them Rogue Squadron?
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jan 3, 2017 9:35:19 GMT -5
I think Rogue Squadron shows up in Empire and Jedi, which would make total sense. You figure with the losses at Scarif and Yavin there would be some necessary re-organizing of the fighter squadrons. Perfect time to rename your premier X-wing group in honor of some Alliance martyrs. I always thought that too but I just watched ROTJ (original cut) and they're Red Squadron. In Empire I think they are Echo Squadron; or at least Zev is. Maybe in the Special Editions they re-dub lines and call them Rogue Squadron? The Wookieepedia entry for Rogue Squadron cites Empire Strikes Back a lot - if someone's in a position to at least watch the Hoth Battle, that might definitively answer it. EDIT: Luke: "Rogue Group: use your harpoons and tow cables." At about 4:50: (It's a quiet day at work)
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Post by pairesta on Jan 3, 2017 9:44:45 GMT -5
I always thought that too but I just watched ROTJ (original cut) and they're Red Squadron. In Empire I think they are Echo Squadron; or at least Zev is. Maybe in the Special Editions they re-dub lines and call them Rogue Squadron? The Wookieepedia entry for Rogue Squadron cites Empire Strikes Back a lot - if someone's in a position to at least watch the Hoth Battle, that might definitively answer it. EDIT: Luke: "Rogue Group: use your harpoons and tow cables." At about 4:50: (It's a quiet day at work) OK, thanks. And now it's coming back to me: there's an EU explanation that they switched back to Red Squadron at the Battle of Endor to honor the name from the Battle of Yavin.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 3, 2017 11:36:03 GMT -5
pairestaWe'll probably see Rogue Squadron return in the new canon anyway. A lot of EU stuff already has (some of it is in this very movie - Kyber crystals! That goes all the way back to Splinter in the Mind's Eye, the first Star Wars novel that wasn't a novelisation.) At about 4:50: (It's a quiet day at work) Unrelated, but god, that cocky little head gesture Piett has right after being promoted to Admiral. He almost wasn't in Jedi, you know; and I'm happy that he is. I guess with a Star Wars movie coming out every year now he'll probably come back on the big screen sooner or later.
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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 3, 2017 16:53:08 GMT -5
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Post by Lone Locust of the Apocalypse on Jan 3, 2017 17:57:57 GMT -5
Why weren't the decraniated in the movie?
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heroboy
AV Clubber
I must succeed!
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Post by heroboy on Jan 3, 2017 18:34:33 GMT -5
There's so many little bits of fan goodness in that whole battle. Like, why there's a Red and Gold squadron at the battle of Yavin but no Blue Squadron. Blue Squadron was the name for Red Squadron in earlier drafts of the original film's script (so Luke Skywalker was 'Blue Five' in Alan Dean Foster's novelisation) so I particularly liked that note. IIRC some of the deleted footage from A New Hope reused for this film (allowing the movie to incorporate the original Red and Gold squadron pilots) included references to Blue Squadron. As for Rogue Squadron, I think the term was only used for the snowspeeders at the start of Empire? So supposedly Blue Squadron was changed to Red Squadron because the blue stripes on th X-Wings were screwing up the blue-screening.
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Post by Desert Dweller on Jan 3, 2017 22:19:30 GMT -5
Why weren't the decraniated in the movie? Assuming someone at Disney vetoed it as too dark. That's my best guess.
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Post by sarapen on Jan 4, 2017 7:28:05 GMT -5
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Post by Return of the Thin Olive Duke on Jan 4, 2017 9:28:39 GMT -5
I know the demands of creating content are strong, but goddamn, had the author ever seen Star Wars before? From day one, it has been space fantasy, more akin to Tolkien or Arthurian legend than science fiction. The franchise has never made any pretense toward being speculative fiction. For God's sake, each installment opens with a glorified "once upon a time." And anyway, of course they had to match the aesthetic of the original films. The prequels looked too modern, and it was weird and inconsistent.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jan 4, 2017 14:12:37 GMT -5
Inquiry: was this the first Star Wars film to actually have a wheeled vehicle in it? The retro-tech thing that distracted me wasn’t “diesel” aspect at all but the fact that the so much of the climax focuses on retrieving physical media and getting in its correct video player, with a subplot of plugging in the right cord. Yes, I know info was recorded on tape in the 1970s and I’m sure someone offhandedly referred to tapes or something in the original Star Wars but I still found it oddly distracting, maybe because Star Wars fandom is more antique media-centric than others because of everyone’s VHS memories (or actual VHS tapes saved so you can still watch non-Special Editions). Anyway I found myself weirdly disengaged from a lot of Rogue One, like I was watching the least interesting part of an interesting story. That’s probably a side effect of setting up there being some kind of interesting backstory between Ben Mendelssohn, Mads Mikkelsen, and Forest Whitaker and never really following up on it. Damn it Rogue One, you’re such a tease—that’s the movie I want to see! Beyond them being awesome actors they set up a lot of interesting stuff thematically, too. (Just putting the rest of this under spoiler tags): Galen constantly reassures young Jyn about her security, Krennic sees terror as a means to an end, and there’s sort of a mirror image of that with Saw. Also loved Saw’s warning about keeping your head down—nicely timed with the appearance of the Death Star. Good move, Rogue One. In short in the background of Rogue One is a really fascinating movie, while in the foreground is some boring shoehorned slogan about hope. But we never really get that sense from Jyn and Cassian. Jyn came across as pretty generic to me, and Cassian has his moments—his variation on “what we will do with the screaming baby” in the beginning and shooting Krennic in the back—someone is a real spy in the end, but he’s kind of bland too. And there’s not much in terms of stakes for either of them—the film’s set up so they have nothing to lose by the time of the final mission—Jyn’s family and surrogate father figure are dead, she doesn’t particularly care about what the other Rebels think, and I didn’t really feel any chemistry between Jyn and Cassian, either, despite their nice little mushroom cloud moment at the end. I think this all goes back to ComradePig’s remark about how the film needed more room to breathe. Much of the film was spent getting from one place to another, so we never really got to know anyone outside of their role in moving the story forward. That’s probably why I felt strangely detached. I didn’t have trouble keeping the various planets in check, but only Jedha really felt like a place. Again, hard to really get invested, despite all the obvious craft and care involved. Anyway liked the final space battle and Admiral Raddus—and I thought Trek bridges were unreasonably vulnerable! I was seriously expecting that to result in some kind of Chekov’s gun-type scenario beyond cool views of the planet below (I know Star Wars isn’t the type of franchise where this is important, but that was seriously more of a “commercial airliner heading in for a landing” level view). Also surprised we didn’t get some kind of final scene with Raddus after his ship was boarded. In terms of references I’m not enough of a Star Wars fan to even notice most of the little nods and didn’t feel like I was missing anything, so I’d call that a success. I’d been spoiled about cutscene Tarkin, but while he didn’t look as out-of-place as I’d anticipated it was still too obvious, when interacting with Mendelssohn, that this wasn’t a real actor with access to real emotions for a real performance. I mean, Wayne Pygram is right there (or easily found in Australia)! Maybe it’s bad timing but CGI Leia came off worse to me. I think a lot could have been solved if they didn’t make it literally just before— A New Hope.
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Post by Jean-Luc Lemur on Jan 4, 2017 14:23:03 GMT -5
Also, could Vader’s castle be any more emo?
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Post by Lone Locust of the Apocalypse on Jan 4, 2017 14:25:44 GMT -5
Also, could Vader’s castle be any more emo? That depends on what kind of music he blasts out of his sweet stereo system.
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Post by Hawkguy on Jan 4, 2017 15:12:13 GMT -5
Also, could Vader’s castle be any more emo? That depends on what kind of music he blasts out of his sweet stereo system. DARKNESS! DEAD PADME! ROBOT BODY! KINDA MAKES IT BETTER!
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Post by Ben Grimm on Jan 4, 2017 15:47:15 GMT -5
Inquiry: was this the first Star Wars film to actually have a wheeled vehicle in it? No, there were a few in the prequels - this, and this, and this, for example.
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Post by Douay-Rheims-Challoner on Jan 4, 2017 18:21:52 GMT -5
Inquiry: was this the first Star Wars film to actually have a wheeled vehicle in it? No, there were a few in the prequels - this, and this, and this, for example. And Rogue One's vehicle is the first of those, repurposed from its Clone Wars days, one of a couple of little prequel trilogy nods in the film. Anyway I found myself weirdly disengaged from a lot of Rogue One, like I was watching the least interesting part of an interesting story. That’s probably a side effect of setting up there being some kind of interesting backstory between Ben Mendelssohn, Mads Mikkelsen, and Forest Whitaker and never really following up on it. Damn it Rogue One, you’re such a tease—that’s the movie I want to see! Beyond them being awesome actors they set up a lot of interesting stuff thematically, too. I wonder how much of this relates to the extensive reshooting in the film (reportedly almost half of the film was reworked late in development, which is made particularly obvious looking at any of the film's trailers and noticing almost all of the dialogue in the earlier ones is not in the film.) Saw Gerrera in particular seems to have suffered there - there was clearly at least one scene of him talking to a Jyn Erso back when he was raising her that was cut from the film, with an entire speech he told her heard in the trailers (the video below jumps right to it.) Kathleen Kennedy's already said that they wanted to use Saw Gerrera more than they did and expressed a guarded hope to still do something with him, though, aside from his inevitable appearances in ancillary media (like the Rebels cartoon, where Forest Whittaker will reprise the role for an episode) it doesn't seem clear what they could do. There are also some indications - like from Mendelsohn - that the film played with a number of different ways to characterise Orson Krennic (he apparently gave four different kinds of readings on given scenes.) The film chooses to portray him as a functionary having a very bad day who is almost always the least cool guy in the room, be Tarkin undercutting him or Vader darkly joking at his expense. One of the trailers also seems to imply a stronger reading for the character, namely, this moment: Anyway, there's a fairly thorough breakdown of the differences here, for anyone who's interested. (I'm also surprised the film didn't give us an ending for Raddus, but given at that point the narrative thrust is all directed towards where the plans are going, and they're going right to Leia, I assume his tragic death was on the cutting room floor.)
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dLᵒ
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𝓐𝓻𝓮 𝓦𝓮 𝓒𝓸𝓸𝓵 𝓨𝓮𝓽?
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Post by dLᵒ on Jan 5, 2017 2:07:01 GMT -5
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Post by Lt. Broccoli on Jan 5, 2017 7:39:42 GMT -5
Just saw it yesterday - maybe I haven't had time to think too critically about it yet, but IT WAS AMAAAAAZZZZZING
It makes me hate The Force Awakens even more!
The planet shield on Scarif reminded me of Spaceballs. Also, at one point a stormtrooper was repeatedly blastered in the crotch, which reminded me of Spaceballs too.
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Post by ComradeQuestions on Jan 5, 2017 15:06:25 GMT -5
Saw it yesterday, and I generally liked it. I actually liked a lot of the first half, and felt like they did a pretty good job of establishing the characters enough to make them likable. There were definitely too many tie-ins to the other movies, from the cool (Vader's castle, the first time they used New Hope pilot footage) to the slightly-off (the CGI Tarkin/Leia, Vader's voice) to the awful (the Cantina dudes, C3P0/R2D2, all the other times they spliced in New Hope pilot footage).
I think what mostly took me out of the movie was the weird plotting that might be the result of the reshoots. Why is Forest Whitaker barely in it? Why did they go to the rain planet when they already knew about the plans? What's the point of MC Riz telling them to open the gate when they were already trying to do that? Why did it look like the shield was still up even after they supposedly took it down? How is Leia in New Hope trying to pretend they're on a diplomatic mission when they literally just jumped away from the battle? And why is the Death Star treated like this secret weapon in New Hope, when they literally all just saw it blow up a hemisphere?
I would definitely say I much prefer Force Awakens for the much stronger characters, despite all the retreading. Nothing in Rogue One holds a candle to the snow-forest fight at the end of TFA.
Though oddly, I'd say that while it's not that great on its own, the pairing of Rogue One with New Hope almost makes both stronger, for the way the sacrifices of the former are justified in the latter. But the "A Star Wars Story" moniker fits: it just didn't really *feel* like a Star Wars movie, for better or worse.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jan 5, 2017 15:38:29 GMT -5
Inquiry: was this the first Star Wars film to actually have a wheeled vehicle in it? No, there were a few in the prequels - this, and this, and this, for example. So, in other words, yes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 13:24:22 GMT -5
No, there were a few in the prequels - this, and this, and this, for example. So, in other words, yes. Say what you will, but Revenge of the Sith is better than this.
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Post by Powerthirteen on Jan 7, 2017 13:39:35 GMT -5
Say what you will, but Revenge of the Sith is better than this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 14:12:47 GMT -5
Say what you will, but Revenge of the Sith is better than this. Rogue one looks pretty, and has a nice final battle that is it. The rest is just bland and boring. The characters are so poorly developed. Say what you will about the first two prequels, they were bad. But at least Revenge kinda course corrected, it was still a mess but I will gladly take a mess with some bright spots over something as bland and unemotional as Rogue One.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 14:24:15 GMT -5
The more I think about it, you can take a lot of the criticism from Edwards godzilla and just put it to Rogue One, for me at least. The funny thing, I actually liked Godzilla.
I think years from now Rogue One won't be anyones favorite, or a movie that star wars fans will be particularly enamored with. It is gonna get overshadowed by the rest of the Sequel Trilogy, and I think once that "star wars is back" sheen is gone, that it won't be as praised.
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Post by ganews on Jan 11, 2017 23:40:15 GMT -5
Finally saw it last night. I feel bad now for silently assuming @matt1 was wrong about everything. I didn't hate it, I wouldn't put it below Sith. But I thought it was going to be everything I wanted TFA to be, and it was very much not. Every character was under-developed. The first act was simultaneously a drag and rushed (because they were moving right along without developing the characters). I assumed that would kind of be the whole deal, since we already know the beginning and end of the story it wouldn't be all about action. Ben Mendelsohn was far and away the most interesting character. I thought CGI Peter Cushing looked pretty OK. I didn't hate Alan Tudyk's droid, Wifemate kind of did. As with TFA, most of the fanservice just pissed me off.
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