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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 18:27:21 GMT -5
I get the points you're making. But still - even the most mediocre of the Marvel movies (Thor 2, Iron Man 2) are still internally consistent AND fit in the overall continuity. If Infinity War had come out and opened with "Oh btw Thanos died and now Obadiah Stane is back somehow and was behind EVERYTHING THE ENTIRE TIME and now he has an entire solar system full of Iron Monger suits but with hulk-killing weapons so we have to go invade an upside-down Hydra Helicarrier on horseback to push the Off Switch" we would have hated it too. Yes, there was one very bad new Disney Star Wars that sucked and made ridiculous decisions about where it was going to go. They should have had someone plan out where the new trilogy was going from before Episode VII was released, JJ Abrams was underwhelming, and they clearly didn't take the time they should have on Episode IX, which led to them putting out a movie with a huge budget without sufficient time to make it good. I certainly didn't mean to imply that Episode IX wasn't bad; I think that only I and II are worse. But I also think there's this idea that Disney was going to ruin Star Wars and rob it of some artistic integrity as if the franchise had heretofore been free of the taint of capitalism, and I don't really buy that, because that ship sailed, at the latest, in 1983. Also, the end of MCU Phase III is basically the same shit as Episode IX only handled with competence. Both Infinity War/Endgame and RoS suffer from ratcheting up the stakes to utterly absurd levels. Thanos kills half the universe by snapping his fingers; that is as ridiculous as Palpatine's giant Star Destroyer fleet. Rey is the most Chosen One of all Chosen Ones; that is as ridiculous as billionaire Tony Stark becoming the greatest of all martyrs. I don't like the approach of either, but the fact that those MCU films are pretty decent (and have some solid emotional beats that land) is proof that the main problem with Star Wars that made the last film unredeemably bad wasn't bringing back the same old Big Bad or raising the stakes. I think that those things are inherently flawed ideas, but I also roll my eyes at the entire concept of Endgame as well. But they're both adventure movies, and I could have handled some ridiculousness in the new trilogy, so if RoS hadn't just been two hours of killing time looking for a McGuffin, and had developed its characters in emotionally satisfying ways instead of pandering to reactionaries who hate Rose and didn't like Episode VIII's portrayal of Luke, and they'd found a way to make the ridiculous bits work a little better (like I think if the giant fleet had been a sort of Potemkin village meant to really impress Kylo Ren when in reality the vast majority of the ships were either an illusion or just hollowed out models of Star Destroyers, that could have really worked), I probably would have quite enjoyed the film, even if it didn't live up to the emotional resonance of the original trilogy. There you go, I like that. You're absolutely right...one of the biggest things about TROS that I didn't like, was that all of the characters were not a TEAM. They were all doing their own shit barely even interacting with anyone else, so much so that they might as well have been in completely different movies. Yeah, Tony was the martyr in the end, but it took EVERYONE working together to get there. TROS tried to have this too with the giant fleet showing up at the end, but none of them really even DID anything while Rey saved the galaxy. Anyway, you are right that IW/Endgame were absurd but handled much better. |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Apr 26, 2020 0:10:38 GMT -5
I get the points you're making. But still - even the most mediocre of the Marvel movies (Thor 2, Iron Man 2) are still internally consistent AND fit in the overall continuity. If Infinity War had come out and opened with "Oh btw Thanos died and now Obadiah Stane is back somehow and was behind EVERYTHING THE ENTIRE TIME and now he has an entire solar system full of Iron Monger suits but with hulk-killing weapons so we have to go invade an upside-down Hydra Helicarrier on horseback to push the Off Switch" we would have hated it too. Also, the end of MCU Phase III is basically the same shit as Episode IX only handled with competence. Both Infinity War/Endgame and RoS suffer from ratcheting up the stakes to utterly absurd levels. Thanos kills half the universe by snapping his fingers; that is as ridiculous as Palpatine's giant Star Destroyer fleet. Rey is the most Chosen One of all Chosen Ones; that is as ridiculous as billionaire Tony Stark becoming the greatest of all martyrs. I don't like the approach of either, but the fact that those MCU films are pretty decent (and have some solid emotional beats that land) is proof that the main problem with Star Wars that made the last film unredeemably bad wasn't bringing back the same old Big Bad or raising the stakes. I think that those things are inherently flawed ideas, but I also roll my eyes at the entire concept of Endgame as well. But they're both adventure movies, and I could have handled some ridiculousness in the new trilogy, so if RoS hadn't just been two hours of killing time looking for a McGuffin, and had developed its characters in emotionally satisfying ways instead of pandering to reactionaries who hate Rose and didn't like Episode VIII's portrayal of Luke, and they'd found a way to make the ridiculous bits work a little better (like I think if the giant fleet had been a sort of Potemkin village meant to really impress Kylo Ren when in reality the vast majority of the ships were either an illusion or just hollowed out models of Star Destroyers, that could have really worked), I probably would have quite enjoyed the film, even if it didn't live up to the emotional resonance of the original trilogy. To be fair, ratcheting up the stakes to ridiculously high levels is kind of what's expected in comic books, particularly crossover arcs. You kind of have to have a giant existential threat in order for your large team of literal gods and superheroes to feel, well, threatened. So I'm willing to cut Endgame much more slack in that regard. Ratcheting up the stakes in TROS, on the other hand, was more a function of Abrams not having any idea how to tell personal stories, and thus not having any idea how to tie up character arcs, all the while pissily tossing out what little character work had been achieved in the previous film. So, as you said, we ended up with endless mcguffin searches and invincible death fleets, with Rey and Ren kind of going through the motions of a redemptive arc tacked on, because Abrams had the vague notion that Star Wars is supposed to be about stuff like redemption and growing up and such but didn't know how to put in the work. |
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Post by Celebith on May 4, 2020 23:22:29 GMT -5
All I want to know is, do we blame Disney or can we continue to blame Lucas? Since he sold it to the only people who could screw it up worse than he had. He is probably sitting on a pile of money like Scrooge McDuck stroking a Monkey's paw. He's still ridiculously rich, but he's donated all of the Disney money and then some to charities, mostly in education. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 14:40:16 GMT -5
My wife asked me to explain the Palpatine to Rey connection yesterday. I added in Disney's stupid book retcons to help explain the plotholes.
If you really think this movie is any good, just actually think about the explanation about Rey's parents. It is utter trash.
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Post by liebkartoffel on May 9, 2020 20:15:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 11:51:06 GMT -5
Finally, something good to come out of this movie.
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patbat
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Post by patbat on Jun 2, 2020 12:11:50 GMT -5
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patbat
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Post by patbat on Jun 2, 2020 12:25:05 GMT -5
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Post by Hachiman on Jun 2, 2020 21:43:22 GMT -5
Two things that I just realized: 1. While there is plenty of supplementary media about C-3PO which could allow one to handwave that he probably got a system upgrade at some point we really don't get this from the movies. The movies make it seem like he got his memory wiped at the end of the prequels, and then is the same droid through the next 6 chronological episodes. 2. They kind of touch on this in Rogue One as well, but wouldn't Droid have some sort of loyalty program that prevented them from helping the Rebellion? Like, he only has to follow Republic Law on this one specific thing but otherwise is cool with helping the Rebellion in every other way in their fight against the (unfortunately but also actually) legitimate successor state? The Resistance was unsanctioned by the New Republic so you'd think his programming would prevent him from helping them as well. 3. Bonus! Up to now, I thought the worst thing about C-3PO was that Anakin built him. Even at like 15, I didn't like that. But now? LOL. At least Episode I didn't make naked C-3PO a plot point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 22:06:28 GMT -5
Rise of Skywalker is so bad that it is surprising the release year wasn't 2020.
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Post by Nudeviking on Jun 2, 2020 22:25:36 GMT -5
Two things that I just realized: 1. While there is plenty of supplementary media about C-3PO which could allow one to handwave that he probably got a system upgrade at some point we really don't get this from the movies. The movies make it seem like he got his memory wiped at the end of the prequels, and then is the same droid through the next 6 chronological episodes. 2. They kind of touch on this in Rogue One as well, but wouldn't Droid have some sort of loyalty program that prevented them from helping the Rebellion? Like, he only has to follow Republic Law on this one specific thing but otherwise is cool with helping the Rebellion in every other way in their fight against the (unfortunately but also actually) legitimate successor state? The Resistance was unsanctioned by the New Republic so you'd think his programming would prevent him from helping them as well. 3. Bonus! Up to now, I thought the worst thing about C-3PO was that Anakin built him. Even at like 15, I didn't like that. But now? LOL. At least Episode I didn't make naked C-3PO a plot point. Maybe there's like a Windows '95 type OS for protocol droids that Anakin just installed and that one had the "Nope, no translating Sith-tongue or whatever it's called," thing as a default setting. |
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Post by Hachiman on Jun 2, 2020 23:23:10 GMT -5
Maybe there's like a Windows '95 type OS for protocol droids that Anakin just installed and that one had the "Nope, no translating Sith-tongue or whatever it's called," thing as a default setting. It was SIMP (Standard Intergalactic Machine Protocol). C-3PO is all SIMP from day 1. That's why R2 was giving him crap as soon as they met. |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jun 2, 2020 23:26:44 GMT -5
One fun game is trying to remember even the most rudimentary details of the "plot" of TRoS six months after its release. Let's see, they needed C-3P0 to translate the writing on the...dagger, which led them to that one planet...wait, was that supposed to be Endor? It had the Death Star remains so I guess maybe, but it looked different. So they translate the text on the dagger to take them to Maybe-Endor and then they use the dagger to find the other...thingy which is in the Death Star. But, wait a minute, isn't this supposed to be some sort of ancient Sith artifact? Why would it lead them to a space station that was built like 40 years ago? Or did Palpatine himself make the dagger so that...somebody else could find their way to his planet? In which case, why not just tell them to check the Death Star? Or hell, just tell them where he is?...And now I remembered why I try not to think about this movie.
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Post by Hachiman on Jun 3, 2020 2:44:41 GMT -5
One fun game is trying to remember even the most rudimentary details of the "plot" of TRoS six months after its release. Let's see, they needed C-3P0 to translate the writing on the...dagger, which led them to that one planet...wait, was that supposed to be Endor? It had the Death Star remains so I guess maybe, but it looked different. So they translate the text on the dagger to take them to Maybe-Endor and then they use the dagger to find the other...thingy which is in the Death Star. But, wait a minute, isn't this supposed to be some sort of ancient Sith artifact? Why would it lead them to a space station that was built like 40 years ago? Or did Palpatine himself make the dagger so that...somebody else could find their way to his planet? In which case, why not just tell them to check the Death Star? Or hell, just tell them wear he is?...And now I remembered why I try not to think about this movie. You can kind of do that for all the movies. Even the first movie doesn't make a ton of sense。The only difference is that instead of macguffins, there's just a ton of major plot conveniences at every step of the story. I am sad though that we never got a scene of a depressed Rey doing Luke's daily routine and drinking green milk fresh from an alien teat. |
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Post by Nudeviking on Jun 3, 2020 3:08:26 GMT -5
One fun game is trying to remember even the most rudimentary details of the "plot" of TRoS six months after its release. Let's see, they needed C-3P0 to translate the writing on the...dagger, which led them to that one planet...wait, was that supposed to be Endor? It had the Death Star remains so I guess maybe, but it looked different. So they translate the text on the dagger to take them to Maybe-Endor and then they use the dagger to find the other...thingy which is in the Death Star. But, wait a minute, isn't this supposed to be some sort of ancient Sith artifact? Why would it lead them to a space station that was built like 40 years ago? Or did Palpatine himself make the dagger so that...somebody else could find their way to his planet? In which case, why not just tell them to check the Death Star? Or hell, just tell them wear he is?...And now I remembered why I try not to think about this movie. Maybe it was Death Star 1 and not Death Star 2 and he made the dagger between A New Hope and Return of the Jedi as a way to remember to go back to get whatever that random chunk that they needed the dagger to find. "Gotta remember to go get that thing. Probably going to need a boat. Space Jesus this is going to take a long time to do..." |
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Post by liebkartoffel on Jun 3, 2020 8:43:20 GMT -5
One fun game is trying to remember even the most rudimentary details of the "plot" of TRoS six months after its release. Let's see, they needed C-3P0 to translate the writing on the...dagger, which led them to that one planet...wait, was that supposed to be Endor? It had the Death Star remains so I guess maybe, but it looked different. So they translate the text on the dagger to take them to Maybe-Endor and then they use the dagger to find the other...thingy which is in the Death Star. But, wait a minute, isn't this supposed to be some sort of ancient Sith artifact? Why would it lead them to a space station that was built like 40 years ago? Or did Palpatine himself make the dagger so that...somebody else could find their way to his planet? In which case, why not just tell them to check the Death Star? Or hell, just tell them wear he is?...And now I remembered why I try not to think about this movie. You can kind of do that for all the movies. Even the first movie doesn't make a ton of sense。The only difference is that instead of macguffins, there's just a ton of major plot conveniences at every step of the story. I am sad though that we never got a scene of a depressed Rey doing Luke's daily routine and drinking green milk fresh from an alien teat. Conveniences are fine--they're usually what makes a story a story rather than a random sequence of events--even macguffins can be fine--the Maltese Falcon and Rosebud were both macguffins after all--but when the macguffin(s) in question exist only to give your characters something to do in the first two acts until the final epic sword battle in the third then you likely don't have a very good story. And it should be noted that none of the previous movies are "find the mysterious artifact" treasure hunt-type stories; they tend to be barebones Hero's Journey stuff. They were simplistic, yes, but you always knew what the characters' short and long-term goals were and how they were getting from point A to point B. It's just that in TRoS's case Rey never really had an arc and Abrams doesn't know how to write one so he had to find some way of filling the first hour and a half of the movie. |
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Post by chalkdevil 😈 on Jun 3, 2020 9:32:45 GMT -5
You can kind of do that for all the movies. Even the first movie doesn't make a ton of sense。The only difference is that instead of macguffins, there's just a ton of major plot conveniences at every step of the story. I am sad though that we never got a scene of a depressed Rey doing Luke's daily routine and drinking green milk fresh from an alien teat. Conveniences are fine--they're usually what makes a story a story rather than a random sequence of events--even macguffins can be fine--the Maltese Falcon and Rosebud were both macguffins after all--but when the macguffin(s) in question exist only to give your characters something to do in the first two acts until the final epic sword battle in the third then you likely don't have a very good story. And it should be noted that none of the previous movies are "find the mysterious artifact" treasure hunt-type stories; they tend to be barebones Hero's Journey stuff. They were simplistic, yes, but you always knew what the characters' short and long-term goals were and how they were getting from point A to point B. It's just that in TRoS's case Rey never really had an arc and Abrams doesn't know how to write one so he had to find some way of filling the first hour and a half of the movie. I think, much like how JJ's Star Trek movies were mostly auditions to direct Star Wars movies, TRoS was JJ's audition to direct an Indiana Jones soft reboot/sequel. Thus the finding ancient artifact in the desert (that corresponds with to 30 year old ruins I guess), fighting Nazi's, Poe dressing like Indiana Jones, etc. "All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was... what he was doing." I feel like the plot conveniences in the original trilogy were mostly just standard movie plotting, but certainly in The Force Awakens, JJ made a specific effort, at least in a couple of places, to indicate that it was The Force TM pushing people towards their destiny. I think the most obvious being on Jakku, when Fin is drinking from the trough and a big monster pushes him so that he notices Rey in trouble. He is literally pushed towards destiny. It's not subtle or anything but I thought it worked for the series. I don't remember anything like that in TRoS. Mostly just remember the too convenient plot developments, like the twice reversal deaths of off screen named characters (See whatever the hell was supposed to be going on with Chewbacca on that ship or Keri Russel's character, who definitely wasn't just described to the costume designer as a sexy, girl Boba Fett, apparently surviving a planet exploding just so Poe can have someone to be not gay with at the end). Anyway I'm sure it is all explained in the pile of supplemental materials that try to make sense of the slapped together script. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Jun 3, 2020 12:01:46 GMT -5
Two things that I just realized: 1. While there is plenty of supplementary media about C-3PO which could allow one to handwave that he probably got a system upgrade at some point we really don't get this from the movies. The movies make it seem like he got his memory wiped at the end of the prequels, and then is the same droid through the next 6 chronological episodes. 2. They kind of touch on this in Rogue One as well, but wouldn't Droid have some sort of loyalty program that prevented them from helping the Rebellion? Like, he only has to follow Republic Law on this one specific thing but otherwise is cool with helping the Rebellion in every other way in their fight against the (unfortunately but also actually) legitimate successor state? The Resistance was unsanctioned by the New Republic so you'd think his programming would prevent him from helping them as well. 3. Bonus! Up to now, I thought the worst thing about C-3PO was that Anakin built him. Even at like 15, I didn't like that. But now? LOL. At least Episode I didn't make naked C-3PO a plot point. Maybe there's like a Windows '95 type OS for protocol droids that Anakin just installed and that one had the "Nope, no translating Sith-tongue or whatever it's called," thing as a default setting. Ok but why on earth would you program droids to even understand the language then? HOW do you even program a droid to understand the language if it's illegal to translate it? I know it's wizards and laser swords, but c'mon! |
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Crash Test Dumbass
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Post by Crash Test Dumbass on Jun 3, 2020 18:49:53 GMT -5
Threepio downloaded the Sith-Basic dictionary from the Deep Holonet. Threepio would be too afraid to go near the Deep Holonet. R2 probably snuck it into one of his regular updates. |
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Post by Celebith on Jun 24, 2020 14:39:36 GMT -5
I love the Auralnauts SW remixes that have Creepio as the main villain because he's angry about being 'born without flesh'. The whole thing works really well, and is pretty hillarious. |
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Post by Celebith on Jun 24, 2020 14:41:39 GMT -5
I watched the first half or so of this on Saturday, before I had to stop and go do other things, and it still sucks so hard. I don't even want to watch it while I'm drifting off to sleep.
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Post by Celebith on Jun 26, 2020 0:05:09 GMT -5
This links directly to the Awakening of Creepio scene, but the whole series is pretty good. They made this one so they could showcase their techno Duel of the Fates, but each episode remix gets longer and develops their alternate telling. The Jedi are a bunch of drug addicted ravers, the Sith are a fast-casual dining and 'family fun complex' emporium and battles are settled with glow-stick dance-offs. Episode I is probably the weakest, but unlike the actual films, you should probably start there instead of with Episode IV (Laser Moon Awakens)These are the same guys who did the Kylo Ren 'review' of Rise of Skywalker that I linked to somewhere upstream |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Sept 2, 2020 9:38:33 GMT -5
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Post by Nudeviking on Sept 2, 2020 19:21:27 GMT -5
Maybe there's more context in the GQ article proper but the quotes pulled from it by the AVC make it seem like he's claiming to both be the only person that had to deal with shitty racist fuckhole "fans" and directors who didn't know how to write for a person of color and acknowledging that the same exact things happened to Kelly Marie Tran. |
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Post by Superb Owl 🦉 on Sept 2, 2020 19:37:24 GMT -5
Maybe there's more context in the GQ article proper but the quotes pulled from it by the AVC make it seem like he's claiming to both be the only person that had to deal with shitty racist fuckhole "fans" and directors who didn't know how to write for a person of color and acknowledging that the same exact things happened to Kelly Marie Tran. Funnily enough I had the same initial reaction. patbat correctly encouraged me to read the actual GQ piece in which the quote is much better in context. If anything he seems pissed that they learned nothing from his experience leading up to TFA and let her go through the same bullshit. |
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Post by Nudeviking on Sept 2, 2020 19:55:41 GMT -5
Maybe there's more context in the GQ article proper but the quotes pulled from it by the AVC make it seem like he's claiming to both be the only person that had to deal with shitty racist fuckhole "fans" and directors who didn't know how to write for a person of color and acknowledging that the same exact things happened to Kelly Marie Tran. Funnily enough I had the same initial reaction. patbat correctly encouraged me to read the actual GQ piece in which the quote is much better in context. If anything he seems pissed that they learned nothing from his experience leading up to TFA and let her go through the same bullshit. My initial thought was correct then. With the quotes pulled for the AVC piece it wasn't clear if the first bit about no one else going through what he had to go through was solely related to the TFA awakened or he was speaking of his experience across the entire franchise but it seems like that specific quote was the former rather than the later. I'll give the actual article a read later. |
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Crash Test Dumbass
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Post by Crash Test Dumbass on Sept 3, 2020 9:44:05 GMT -5
Maybe there's more context in the GQ article proper but the quotes pulled from it by the AVC make it seem like he's claiming to both be the only person that had to deal with shitty racist fuckhole "fans" and directors who didn't know how to write for a person of color and acknowledging that the same exact things happened to Kelly Marie Tran. Funnily enough I had the same initial reaction. patbat correctly encouraged me to read the actual GQ piece in which the quote is much better in context. If anything he seems pissed that they learned nothing from his experience leading up to TFA and let her go through the same bullshit. The GQ article is indeed better, but even their chosen headline, " John Boyega: 'I’m the only cast member whose experience of Star Wars was based on their race'" (from a line deep within the interview and, in context, about the violent racism he experienced from being Black and in the Ep VII trailers holding a lightsaber and being heroic) was a poor choice. He's not at all shitting on Tran or Isaac (who is Guatemalan, and I didn't know that). Also the OC commentariat mostly focus on how he didn't like TLJ and like that's what you got from the article? How the mighty have fallen. ETA: also, his braids are fucking awesome. |
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Post by Celebith on Sept 10, 2020 7:55:18 GMT -5
Maybe there's more context in the GQ article proper but the quotes pulled from it by the AVC make it seem like he's claiming to both be the only person that had to deal with shitty racist fuckhole "fans" and directors who didn't know how to write for a person of color and acknowledging that the same exact things happened to Kelly Marie Tran. I complain about a lot of the stupid plots and how it tries to basically just " No, but..." all of TLJ (as opposed to " yes, and..."), but really, it's the way Rose and Finn are just totally fucked by the script. The more I think about this movie, the more I hate it, Disney and JJ. |
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Post by Nudeviking on Sept 10, 2020 8:54:43 GMT -5
Maybe there's more context in the GQ article proper but the quotes pulled from it by the AVC make it seem like he's claiming to both be the only person that had to deal with shitty racist fuckhole "fans" and directors who didn't know how to write for a person of color and acknowledging that the same exact things happened to Kelly Marie Tran. I complain about a lot of the stupid plots and how it tries to basically just " No, but..." all of TLJ (as opposed to " yes, and..."), but really, it's the way Rose and Finn are just totally fucked by the script. The more I think about this movie, the more I hate it, Disney and JJ. Yeah the more I think about it the more I think it might be the worst Star Wars thing of all. The prequels, while flawed, at least had some interesting ideas and/or cool scenes and the much maligned Han Solo movie at least had robosexual Don Glover as young Lando. This though? A whole lot of nothing. It spent the bulk of the movie undoing things that had been done in the previous movie and doing things to appease the shitty loudest most racist “fans” and in the process ended up with a movie that absolutely no one liked. |
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